Banks asked to write off Priory Hall mortages?

The_Conductor

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

1)If someone paid for this apartment with their savings will they be given that money back?

On what basis? And what of people who bought at different price points? If you are doing a scheme- it would have to be ascribing a nominal value to each unit- and refunding this- and if there was further debt or negative equity- it would be up to the people to discuss this individually with their lender?

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

2)Some of the residents have stopped paying their mortgage and are in arrears despite their replacement accommodation being paid for, should these people get debt forgiveness?

Same boat as the 120,000 other mortgages- some of them can pay but won't pay- others probably can't pay (esp. if they've lost their jobs etc). Going down the road of debt forgiveness- is fraught with these scenarios. By opening this Pandora's box- and it is a Pandora's box- you are tacitly stating there is a magic money tree- but we'll only shake for some people- until the next people come along........ If you have forgiveness for this development- what off the 3000 other developments around the country in a similar or worse situation, not complying with basic building codes?

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

3) Some of these were buy to lets, the owners never lived in then, should these be written off as they were a failed gamble?

I didn't win on the lottery last night. I'd like my money back too. Can I? Please?

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

4)The person with a mortgage and has been diligently paying it, should he get debt forgivness AND money already paid returned to bring him in line with the amount of deby written off by the person in point 2 or just the remainder forgiven?

Why would he get debt forgiveness- in the first instance- but more pertinently- why would he get his payments already made returned to him- esp. when the vast bulk of payments early in the life of the mortgage are interest payments, and not payments off the principle.

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Debt forgiveness in this situation is not a fair solution and I don't think the government should be involved. It should be a group civil case taken against the council and architects who signed off on the plans and individuals pay what they own to the banks or have deals based on their ability to pay like everybody else.

I concur wholeheartedly with you. Unfortunately- as usual- its he who shouts loudest and makes most noise, who gets listened to. Bad as their situation is- and don't get me wrong- it is bad- there are thousands of people nationwide in far worse situations than these people. I sympathise with the lady whose partner committed suicide- and definitely think their debt should be wiped off the face of the planet- the others, I'm sorry- but why should their debt be paid- when you're opening the door to mass debt forgiveness. I was prudent and didn't borrow beyond my means- but I also didn't get the foreign holidays and the new cars- that many of these people got during the boom. How about we quantify 10 years of foreign holidays and a new car every year or two- and give it to those of us who were actually prudent- as we, and our children, are going to be the ones paying for these people's windfalls?

The_Conductor

Lantus wrote: »

As highlighted the entire monetary system works towards profit, that's the primary motivation of every company. Not making peoples lives better or improving the environment. As you correctly point out the system is no longer working for us in any regard with manufacturers incentivised to make sub standard products to maximise profitability or deliberate obsolescence so that they will break quickly ensuring the next model can be bought at an extreme waste of resources which then gets thrown into landfill.

Money is really a nothing thing. No fiat currency has survived if we look at history. The dollar has devalued 94% since its introduction. The roman denarius suffered the same fate and led in part to the fall of the empire.

What I'm suggesting is that a people we move away from money and adopt a saner way of live as a technologically emergent species like a resource based economy

We abandon money and barter resources instead?
Like when we sold beef to the Poles in the 1980s- in exchange for coal?
How is this progress?

mrwhite2

How many more priory halls are out there. Not just fire regulations but all types of building controls. I am right in thinking building control were moved from the public to private sector 15 years ago. What safeguards were put in place to regulate this and who is prosecuting corrupt architects and engineers. Why are architects not blamed the way builders are?

Scortho

Lantus wrote: »

As highlighted the entire monetary system works towards profit, that's the primary motivation of every company. Not making peoples lives better or improving the environment. As you correctly point out the system is no longer working for us in any regard with manufacturers incentivised to make sub standard products to maximise profitability or deliberate obsolescence so that they will break quickly ensuring the next model can be bought at an extreme waste of resources which then gets thrown into landfill.

Money is really a nothing thing. No fiat currency has survived if we look at history. The dollar has devalued 94% since its introduction. The roman denarius suffered the same fate and led in part to the fall of the empire.

What I'm suggesting is that a people we move away from money and adopt a saner way of live as a technologically emergent species like a resource based economy

But profit or the search for profit dies make your life better.
If there was no profit, there'd be no investment from businesses, which means no jobs for people.
There'd be no innovation, no technology invented (who funds the development of technology, people in search of profit).
We can't all work in the public service.
The lack of profit is what hinders growth and development.

If you want to go off to some communist utopia off you go, but I ain't going with you.

Don't get me wrong capitalism isn't without it's faults, but just like democracy it's the best of a bad bunch!

Thoie

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

1)If someone paid for this apartment with their savings will they be given that money back?
2)Some of the residents have stopped paying their mortgage and are in arrears despite their replacement accommodation being paid for, should these people get debt forgiveness?
3) Some of these were buy to lets, the owners never lived in then, should these be written off as they were a failed gamble?
4)The person with a mortgage and has been diligently paying it, should he get debt forgivness AND money already paid returned to bring him in line with the amount of deby written off by the person in point 2 or just the remainder forgiven?

Debt forgiveness in this situation is not a fair solution and I don't think the government should be involved. It should be a group civil case taken against the council and architects who signed off on the plans and individuals pay what they own to the banks or have deals based on their ability to pay like everybody else.

There are no group court case facility (or class actions) in Ireland afaik, so that road isn't open to them.

If the magic money tree suddenly comes up with extra money from somewhere for the Priory Hall people, I think the only fair way to do it would be for each apartment to be "bought" from people for a set, and equal amount - e.g. all 1-beds get €150k, all 2-beds get €200k and 3-beds get €250k (or whatever apportioning made sense, depending on the amount the magic money tree yields). People with mortgages should then be made to pay off the mortgage with that amount, and then see what the balance is, the same as if they'd sold the apartment in the normal run of things. That way everyone would hopefully be brought back a bit closer to whatever their starting position was, taking into account that 99% of people who bought around that time are in negative equity.

Ipso

Lantus wrote: »

What I'm suggesting is that a people we move away from money and adopt a saner way of live as a technologically emergent species like a resource based economy

I suppose history is full of examples of this working?
Just because it sounds nice as you type it doesn't mean it will work.

Lantus

The_Conductor wrote: »

We abandon money and barter resources instead?
Like when we sold beef to the Poles in the 1980s- in exchange for coal?
How is this progress?

In a resource based economy all the earth resources are declared the common heritage of all mankind and all systems of money and barter are made obsolete. The efficient use of our resources through the application of technology can provide our needs to a standard of living far above that which we enjoy today without having to force people to engage in meaningless or repetitive jobs.

Lantus

Scortho wrote: »

But profit or the search for profit dies make your life better.
If there was no profit, there'd be no investment from businesses, which means no jobs for people.
There'd be no innovation, no technology invented (who funds the development of technology, people in search of profit).
We can't all work in the public service.
The lack of profit is what hinders growth and development.

If you want to go off to some communist utopia off you go, but I ain't going with you.

Don't get me wrong capitalism isn't without it's faults, but just like democracy it's the best of a bad bunch!

In terms of capitalism there are better options. We have been brought up to believe in the current way we operate without consideration for any alternative. Democracy was a good idea 100 years ago but today is no longer fit for purpose. I don't believe there is such a thing as utopia but it is possible to make things significantly better than they are.

In terms of motivation many people are motivated by things other than money. Many millionaires complain that there isn't enough time in the day to everything they want, why are they not just lounging around in the sun? I myself spend tens of hours a week involved in community work.

Its true that money dos provide some motivation but it also is primarily responsible for greed, theft, corruption, crime, poverty, suffering and many other abhorrent social factors.

There is a wealth of information on a better model of social arrangement as proposed by Jacque Fresco (now 97.) You can look up his many informative videos on you tube and there is a wealth of information on the venus project website.

alb

Lantus wrote: »

Money is really a nothing thing. No fiat currency has survived if we look at history. The dollar has devalued 94% since its introduction. The roman denarius suffered the same fate and led in part to the fall of the empire.

What I'm suggesting is that a people we move away from money and adopt a saner way of live as a technologically emergent species like a resource based economy

The solution is already here, open-source, public, de-centralised digital crypto-currencies such as Bitcoin.

The_Conductor

Sigh- why do I get the notion that the next direction this conversation is going to move in- involves rolls of tinfoil and the NSA?

Lantus- whether you like it or not, and Fiat currency or not- we don't have the capacity to print money to magic our way out of this debt. It not going to happen.

alb- bitcoin is already illegal in several countries, and the subject of criminal investigation in others. Its rapidly evolving into the currency of choice for criminals. Some mainstream businesses are beginning to accept it- I note one pub who allow you buy drinks with bitcoin currency alongside 1 bakery (note- the pub is in Australia- the bakery is in Yorkshire- so its not exactly mainstream........)

We don't have a solution- that we can all agree on- and any solution that is agreed on- if it doesn't have sufficient constraints built into it to dissuade the public at large from using it as some sort of precedent- will torpedo the country for once and for all.

alb

The_Conductor wrote: »

alb- bitcoin is already illegal in several countries, and the subject of criminal investigation in others. Its rapidly evolving into the currency of choice for criminals. Some mainstream businesses are beginning to accept it- I note one pub who allow you buy drinks with bitcoin currency alongside 1 bakery (note- the pub is in Australia- the bakery is in Yorkshire- so its not exactly mainstream........)

To my knowledge Bitcoin is not illegal in any country, someone wrote a blog article saying it was illegal in Thailand, which was based on no actual legislation but yet got reported as news :cool: Besides, outlawing Bitcoin completely will stop it about as much as it stopped bittorrent. It would just drive it underground. Crypto currencies, whether Bitcoin or others are here to stay, there's just too many advantages for it to fail.

The fact criminals are using only proves it works as money. Fiat money is still the primary currency used by criminals, what's the point?

You're right it's not mainstream, it's in its infancy. It's only a few years old, give it time. The progress so far has been incredible given the short time frame. It still works as a value store and a hedge against government printing infinite fiat even if you can't do the weekly shopping with it (yet).

Nate--IRL--

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I'd gladly chip in to re house those people, it's an absolute disgrace.

You already have, and will continue to do so.

Nate

Scortho

Lantus wrote: »

In terms of capitalism there are better options. We have been brought up to believe in the current way we operate without consideration for any alternative. Democracy was a good idea 100 years ago but today is no longer fit for purpose. I don't believe there is such a thing as utopia but it is possible to make things significantly better than they are.

In terms of motivation many people are motivated by things other than money. Many millionaires complain that there isn't enough time in the day to everything they want, why are they not just lounging around in the sun? I myself spend tens of hours a week involved in community work.

Its true that money dos provide some motivation but it also is primarily responsible for greed, theft, corruption, crime, poverty, suffering and many other abhorrent social factors.

There is a wealth of information on a better model of social arrangement as proposed by Jacque Fresco (now 97.) You can look up his many informative videos on you tube and there is a wealth of information on the venus project website.

Such as?
Its easy to say that there is better options than capitalism, but what are they.

The only thing I can think of is libertarianism however unfortunately that will never happen in this country.:mad:

The_Conductor

alb wrote: »

To my knowledge Bitcoin is not illegal in any country,

It may not be illegal- but its getting there.
New York has subpoena'ed representatives of the 22 companies behind Bitcoin- and Federal Authorities in Texas have ruled it a currency subject to all the rules of financial transactions, and under the remit of the federal authorities.

alb

The_Conductor wrote: »

It may not be illegal- but its getting there.
New York has subpoena'ed representatives of the 22 companies behind Bitcoin- and Federal Authorities in Texas have ruled it a currency subject to all the rules of financial transactions, and under the remit of the federal authorities.

I would say this is more towards regulating it than making it illegal. The subpoenas appear to have been an information gathering excercise ahead of the US govs meetings with the Bitcoin Foundation. Representatives of the foundation said the people they met were mostly curious about bitcoin and open to ideas about how to deal with it. They also explained how getting hostile towards it won't stop it anyway, so it would be best to work with them. How they will go about regulating/taxing it will be interesting.