Garda charged for pepper spraying teen..

timmy4u2

SV wrote: »

Excuse me? If they did what it's still being claimed they did then they do deserve the book thrown at them because it's a scummy thing to do.

How can you argue that. The DPP withdrew and the Justice exonerated the Gardai.
BTW Was the "teenager" charged and brought before the courts for his misdemeanours.

SV

DwightSchrute1 wrote: »

You're right, i am sure you have more knowledge about this incident then the DPP :rolleyes:

When did I say that?

If what is claimed is true then my statement stands. It has never been denied either. The DPP just dropped it.

pah

SV wrote: »

When did I say that?

If what is claimed is true then my statement stands. It has never been denied either. The DPP just dropped it.

Nobody is denying that he was pepper sprayed while handcuffed. Your opinion is that it was scummy? The Gardas opinion at the time is that it was necessary and really that's all that matters, the Gardas opinion at the time with all the facts right there in front of them, not your sh1tty keyboard opinion weeks later in hindsight with little or no facts.

SV

pah wrote: »

Nobody is denying that he was pepper sprayed while handcuffed. Your opinion is that it was scummy? The Gardas opinion at the time is that it was necessary and really that's all that matters, the Gardas opinion at the time with all the facts right there in front of them, not your sh1tty keyboard opinion weeks later in hindsight with little or no facts.

Good man yourself.

Keyboard opinion? The opinion of a keyboard? Lol..ok.



Yeah pepper praying someone whilst they're handcuffed is always gonna be scummy. Whether they believe it was necessary or not.

The amount of people who believe Gardas are infallible is scary.

Darkmire

SV wrote: »

The amount of people who believe Gardas are infallible is scary.

I know i cant wait until they run in to the wrong one.

I am pie

Darkmire wrote: »

I know i cant wait until they run in to the wrong one.

You can't wait until someone has an unpleasant problem with the police as it will validate your prejudices?

You seem nice.

No, really...

SV

I am pie wrote: »

You can't wait until someone has an unpleasant problem with the police as it will validate your prejudices?

You seem nice.

No, really...

It's not prejudice to believe Gardai are not infallible.

pah

SV wrote: »

It's not prejudice to believe Gardai are not infallible.

Of course they are not infallible. The point is these Gardaí were exonerated from any wrong doing but you're still saying they were wrong.

Do you have many years experience in frontline policing and making judgement calls under pressure in a split second? Have you ever been in a similar situation or do you even know how pepper spray works and what it is designed to do.

Here's an alternative. A male is being restrained in an arm lock while handcuffed to prevent him from swinging and kicking out. He resists so much that he ends up breaking his arm. A dose of pepper spray on the face would have had him in a ball on the ground crying like a little girl.

I'm sure you'd be calling them scummy for letting him break his arm :rolleyes:

Not only is pepper spray a force option but it is used to protect people from themselves also.

timmy4u2

SV wrote: »

It's not prejudice to believe Gardai are not infallible.

Certainly no prejudice to believe that and certainly Gardai are not infallible in that they are not exempt from liability to error but then again they were never intended to be infallible.
Unlike our ministers and bankers and....and...

SV

pah wrote: »

Of course they are not infallible. The point is these Gardaí were exonerated from any wrong doing but you're still saying they were wrong.

Do you have many years experience in frontline policing and making judgement calls under pressure in a split second? Have you ever been in a similar situation or do you even know how pepper spray works and what it is designed to do.

Here's an alternative. A male is being restrained in an arm lock while handcuffed to prevent him from swinging and kicking out. He resists so much that he ends up breaking his arm. A dose of pepper spray on the face would have had him in a ball on the ground crying like a little girl.

I'm sure you'd be calling them scummy for letting him break his arm :rolleyes:

Not only is pepper spray a force option but it is used to protect people from themselves also.

Exonerated by a judge. I said it was scummy, being dropped by the DPP doesn't change that. Sure it makes it ok in the eyes of the law but then again a lot of stuff can be done that's ok in the eyes of the law yet still scummy.


Riiiight, except that situation never happened. The situation was he was handcuffed and peppersprayed whilst handcuffed.(not proved but claimed and not denied)


I don't have experience in frontline policing but I have plenty of experience in a similar field and yes I do make split decision calls regularly. Pepper spraying someone who's handcuffed would only come to mind if I was feeling particularly bàstardy.

pah

SV wrote: »

Exonerated by a judge. I said it was scummy, being dropped by the DPP doesn't change that. Sure it makes it ok in the eyes of the law but then again a lot of stuff can be done that's ok in the eyes of the law yet still scummy.


Riiiight, except that situation never happened. The situation was he was handcuffed and peppersprayed whilst handcuffed.(not proved but claimed and not denied)


I don't have experience in frontline policing but I have plenty of experience in a similar field and yes I do make split decision calls regularly. Pepper spraying someone who's handcuffed would only come to mind if I was feeling particularly bàstardy.

Oh really. What similar field would that be? A bouncer, security for dunnes stores? Sure ye do the same job :rolleyes:

mfergus

SV wrote: »

I don't have experience in frontline policing but I have plenty of experience in a similar field and yes I do make split decision calls regularly. Pepper spraying someone who's handcuffed would only come to mind if I was feeling particularly bàstardy.

It's obvious you don't.
But if you were in law enforcement, would you not consider pepper spraying a fella who was just involved in a violent incident, who already resisted arrest, who had previous convictions for assault, who was trying to assault you and was trying to damage your property?
would you not consider slightly increasing the level of force as the handcuffs arnt working?

In the end he ended up arrested, nobody was injured, except the suspect who had burning eyes for a while...

j8wk2feszrnpao

SV wrote: »

Pepper spraying someone who's handcuffed would only come to mind if I was feeling particularly bàstardy.

True.

But I doubt that the teen was sitting in the back of the car, just humming away to himself, quietly waiting to be taken into the Garda station.
Surely it's more likely that he was repeatedly kicking the seats, shouting and verbally abusing the Gardai, who may have given him numerous warnings to calm down?

As I previously said, we may never know the full story, but in this case I'm not sure how anyone (not speaking to you directly SV) could be siding with someone who has the track record of actually being a scumbad, as opposed to the Gardai who were taking the scumbad off the street.

Surely the credibility of the individual has to be taken into consideration when we judge this situation?

SV

pah wrote: »

Oh really. What similar field would that be? A bouncer, security for dunnes stores? Sure ye do the same job :rolleyes:

I've dealt with quite a few scumbags without having any pepper spray on hand all the same. And no, neither of those.

Never claimed to do the same job either but well done..again.

SV

mfergus wrote: »

It's obvious you don't.
But if you were in law enforcement, would you not consider pepper spraying a fella who was just involved in a violent incident, who already resisted arrest, who had previous convictions for assault, who was trying to assault you and was trying to damage your property?
would you not consider slightly increasing the level of force as the handcuffs arnt working?

In the end he ended up arrested, nobody was injured, except the suspect who had burning eyes for a while...

If I was feeling particularly bàstardy then yes I would. I'd be all over that choice.

end of the road

pah wrote: »

The Gardas opinion at the time is that it was necessary and really that's all that matters, the Gardas opinion at the time with all the facts right there in front of them, not your sh1tty keyboard opinion weeks later in hindsight with little or no facts.

so if for arguments sake their was a witness to the situation who wasn't a guarda their opinion that it was excessive if it was wouldn't matter? what if the witness was an off duty guard and still said the same thing? or even an on duty guard and he said the same thing? no, all opinions relating to the situation matter, if you don't like people giving their opinions here then campaign for boards to be shut down as all the posts are mostly opinions

pah

SV wrote: »

I've dealt with quite a few scumbags without having any pepper spray on hand all the same. And no, neither of those.

As have I, however if I felt it was necessary to spray someone who was already handcuffed I would not hesitate to do so while having regard for the legality and proportionality of my actions.

I have also seen a man resist to the point that he did break his own arm, so it can happen.

Do you work for the ombudsman?

Santa Cruz

SV wrote: »

Excuse me? If they did what it's still being claimed they did then they do deserve the book thrown at them because it's a scummy thing to do.

If, coulda, woulda, shoulda,

You jumped the gun and made a stupid judgement on a newspaper headline.
Ring Joe the next time

pah

end of the road wrote: »

so if for arguments sake their was a witness to the situation who wasn't a guarda their opinion that it was excessive if it was wouldn't matter? what if the witness was an off duty guard and still said the same thing? or even an on duty guard and he said the same thing? no, all opinions relating to the situation matter, if you don't like people giving their opinions here then campaign for boards to be shut down as all the posts are mostly opinions

Forgive me, what I mean is if the Garda can justify their opinion to use the spray in that it was legal and proportional then that's all that matters

Santa Cruz

timmy4u2 wrote: »

As I said elsewhere it may have come from the Waterford City case not too long ago where the Judge convicted and the conviction was upheld on appeal.
However the circumstances were totally different in this instance

Oh never mind any evidence lets prosecute them because of what someone else did somewhere else in completely different circumstances.
You should be on a jury

source

SV wrote: »

If I was feeling particularly bàstardy then yes I would. I'd be all over that choice.

Can I ask your opinion on what you would do in the examples I posted a few pages back? If you were in either of those situations would you still feel it was "scummy"?

SV

Santa Cruz wrote: »

If, coulda, woulda, shoulda,

You jumped the gun and made a stupid judgement on a newspaper headline.
Ring Joe the next time

You do realise it hasn't been denied don't you? Jumping the gun yourself there as the statement remains true now as it did then. You dont appear to have a clue what you're talking about, also who's Joe?

end of the road

pah wrote: »

Forgive me, what I mean is if the Garda can justify their opinion to use the spray in that it was legal and proportional then that's all that matters

no, its not

MonsterCookie

Jayus it's all kicked off here while I was at work.

Interesting to hear how some people seem to want to hate the Gardai in spite of any logical argument, or based on their experiences with one or two of them.

In my experience, they are usually very professional and courteous, and perhaps based on this I find it hard to side with a scrote that has plenty of form.

We can argue til the cows come home about the rights and wrongs of spraying the little Cnut but at the end of the day, the Gardai are entitled to use their judgement and the matter has been dealt with.

j8wk2feszrnpao

end of the road wrote: »

no, its not

Are you saying it's never justifiable for the Gardai to use pepper spray or not justifiable in this case (even if the acted within the law)?

SV

source wrote: »

Can I ask your opinion on what you would do in the examples I posted a few pages back? If you were in either of those situations would you still feel it was "scummy"?

In those particular situations, in hindsight, no. At the time, probably yes. Mostly because you don't know how someone will react to pepper spray and it's not always gonna be the solution to them going ape****.

source

SV wrote: »

In those particular situations, in hindsight, no. At the time, probably yes. Mostly because you don't know how someone will react to pepper spray and it's not always gonna be the solution to them going ape****.

I've seen numerous people sprayed in my time and they all reacted the exact same way. The fight went out of every single one of them, between the temporary blindness and the intense burning there was not much they could do but sit down and weep.

Potential-Monke

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Just wondering (as I have know idea of what actions a Garda can/can't take), would a Garda not turn on their mobile phone and use video/voice recording of the incident (person is handcuffed at this stage) to use in case of any allegation?

No, we wouldn't. For a couple of reasons. A: You won't get the chance to do it while wrestling with someone. And B: The state won't pay for my phone if it gets damaged.

cosy_deal wrote: »

most members of AGS are farmers sons and daughters , why do people act surprised when their not the most nuanced and subtle of people ?

I'd love a link to prove this. Never knew I (and the majority of members in my station) were farmers...

bobwilliams wrote: »

Even the brit cops are streets ahead of our guys.

The "Brit Cops" have a heavier hand than us, we're a bit more forgiving. But yes, we're on average about 5-7 years behind the UK Police. What they do first, we'll follow suit eventually.

SV wrote: »

Excuse me? If they did what it's still being claimed they did then they do deserve the book thrown at them because it's a scummy thing to do.

They did pepper spray him. And while being handcuffed is the hazy bit in the story, even if he was and was still acting violent then the use of pepper spray is legal, justifiable, and warranted.

catallus wrote: »

Maybe a large part of the confusion about this issue is the failure of a lot of people (including, it seems here, the DPP) to acknowledge that the violence carried out by a policeman is essentially different to the violence wrought by a criminal.

Violence is violence. There is no different. What the Gardaí do (or should do) is make sure that the force they use is justifiable. It's not violence, it's force. There is a difference. Force is used to stop violence from a legal standpoint.

SV wrote: »

Yeah pepper praying someone whilst they're handcuffed is always gonna be scummy. Whether they believe it was necessary or not.

SV wrote: »

Exonerated by a judge. I said it was scummy, being dropped by the DPP doesn't change that. Sure it makes it ok in the eyes of the law but then again a lot of stuff can be done that's ok in the eyes of the law yet still scummy.

Refer to what i said above. You're opinion on this is wrong. Pepper Spray is issued to members as one of the first non-letal force options available to them. There are countless studies which state that pepper spray is one of the best non-lethal force options available. And having being subjected to the effects of it, i still would prefer it to a slap of an ASP.

SV wrote: »

I don't have experience in frontline policing but I have plenty of experience in a similar field and yes I do make split decision calls regularly. Pepper spraying someone who's handcuffed would only come to mind if I was feeling particularly bàstardy.

Easy knowing you don't work in a police force. You haven't a clue.

SV

Edit. cba. Too much like arguing with a wall.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Potential-Monke wrote: »

No, we wouldn't. For a couple of reasons. A: You won't get the chance to do it while wrestling with someone. And B: The state won't pay for my phone if it gets damaged.

A. I suggested when the person is handcuffed, even having the phone recording in your pocket to have a vocal recording.
B. So what. My company doesn't pay for my phone, but I still use it in situations when it can get damaged at work. And the state won't pay for it either.

downonthefarm

In my experience they are not so hard when you get them one on one when they're off duty

pah

downonthefarm wrote: »

In my experience they are not so hard when you get them one on one when they're off duty

LOL

slavetothegrind

expert trolling going on in here!

Never been handcuffed or sprayed myself, maybe thats because i don't act like a scumbag?

timmy4u2

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Oh never mind any evidence lets prosecute them because of what someone else did somewhere else in completely different circumstances.
You should be on a jury

I think you are misreading my posts. But yes, it may have been because of the feather in the Ombudsman's hat following that prosecution that the DPP made the now very apparent daft decision to prosecute the two Gardai.
It does not show the DPP's office in a good light especially after their stance in the Ian Bailey case where they showed their independence and resisted pressure from senior Gardai. to prosecute.
Jury?

Paulzx

downonthefarm wrote: »

In my experience they are not so hard when you get them one on one when they're off duty

Viagra will sort that. Get your mate to go to his GP. You shouldn't be missing out

timmy4u2

downonthefarm wrote: »

In my experience they are not so hard when you get them one on one when they're off duty

Is this incitement or the actions of an all talk and no action coward?

Cee-Jay-Cee

Another little scumbag who got what he deserved but is now playing the victim and will inevitably look for compensation (and hopefully fail miserably)

pah

Paulzx wrote: »

Viagra will sort that. Get your mate to go to his GP. You shouldn't be missing out

lmfao

You just won the Internet

PopRocks

People seem to be forgetting that this was not just an ordinary Joe soap that they pepper sprayed. This was a violent, aggressive young man who was resisting arrest. The guard in question used the force she deemed necessary to incapacitate him while thinking of the safety of herself, her colleague and the man himself.

This isn't a person who is worried about staying out of trouble or even bothered by the law based on his 22 previous convictions.
Think about that for a minute. 22 convictions. At 17. That's a lot of acting the maggot.

The guards aren't running around, pepper spraying people who are driving too fast or people who've had a few too many and have fallen asleep outside the chipper. They don't just do it for the craic.

PopRocks

Also, if they had been acting in a way that they thought was not in accordance with the law, would the not have given the lad a few sly digs instead? It'd be a lot easier to blame some bruises on the lad struggling than having to go back to the station and write up a report of how and why they used pepper spray.

pah

PopRocks wrote: »

People seem to be forgetting that this was not just an ordinary Joe soap that they pepper sprayed. This was a violent, aggressive young man who was resisting arrest. The guard in question used the force she deemed necessary to incapacitate him while thinking of the safety of herself, her colleague and the man himself.

This isn't a person who is worried about staying out of trouble or even bothered by the law based on his 22 previous convictions.
Think about that for a minute. 22 convictions. At 17. That's a lot of acting the maggot.

The guards aren't running around, pepper spraying people who are driving too fast or people who've had a few too many and have fallen asleep outside the chipper. They don't just do it for the craic.

Now that's scummy!

TheMza

Typical Garda abuse of power....

j8wk2feszrnpao

TheMza wrote: »

Typical Garda abuse of power....

Please elaborate .....

Valetta

TheMza wrote: »

Typical Garda abuse of power....

Some day a number of years from now, when you're old enough to vote, you will look back and think "what an idiot I was".

pah

TheMza wrote: »

Typical Garda abuse of power....

Christ here we go again. I bet you read the thread title and maybe the first and last pages.:rolleyes:

TheMza

Valetta wrote: »

Some day a number of years from now, when you're old enough to vote, you will look back and think "what an idiot I was".

I voted for Sinn Fein, I'm sure you wont agree with that either

PopRocks

Gway out of it lad. You wouldn't know an abuse of power if it wrongly pepper sprayed you in the face

TheMza

PopRocks wrote: »

Gway out of it lad. You wouldn't know an abuse of power if it wrongly pepper sprayed you in the face

Ah man, they abuse their power every night in my local chipper!

j8wk2feszrnpao

TheMza wrote: »

Ah man, they abuse their power every night in my local chipper!

Free chips?

TheMza

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Free chips?

Usually bacon........