My dog does know when he's done something wrong

strandroad

So all this time I believed that you shouldn't reprimand dogs when you find out that they made a mess out of something - if they are not caught in the act. That after the fact they have no such concept, they will only associate it with you being angry and not with the act, if they act ashamed it's because they react to you and not to the action etc. And this is how we treated our young fella when he went after something he shouldn't have, like a shoe or a book - I would just show them to him and say "bad dog", looking upset and trying to make him understand that it's not OK to play with what he hasn't been given explicitly. But I wouldn't expect him to grasp it; he is clever and it was always happening not in our presence so I could only "teach" him in retrospect (and hide things better). He did act ashamed when one would return to the house and find something destroyed (not often, luckily) but I thought that he only responds to us being annoyed and he doesn't "know" what he's done.

However - we now have a layout in the house where you need to take a flight of stairs before you see any rooms. The dog greets you on the stairs... and you can tell immediately if he's done something wrong (submissive, crawling away) or not (deliriously happy to see you). He's definitely not responding to your annoyance because you haven't seen anything yet.

How does it work then?...

DBB

The very first time he had done something bold in this new set up, how did he react?
Dogs are pretty good at chaining events together, once there's a reasonably tangible temporal connection between them, or when a certain cue (e.g. mess on the floor) is a reliable predictor of an angry/peed off owner response.
So, it is possible that he has learned that when there's a mess on the floor, you tend to get cross, or react in a not-your-usual-friendly-self way. He hasn't, and probably never will, make the connection that the common denominator is him! This is the bit that humans struggle to understand: dogs are not good at realising that if they didn't do certain behaviours, then they wouldn't get in trouble later for it. Actually, this is something it takes time for kids to learn too!
Indeed, you'll find vids on you tube, of an owner coming home to, say, a puddle of pee on the floor. But they've two dogs. And it's not necessarily the one who did it that has the "guilty" look, this dog is invariably the more sensitive of the two.
But, I asked the question at the start of this post just on the off-chance that the very first time you came home in the new layout, and there was damage but you didn't know it yet... Did he do the "guilty" thing then?
Just to note, I have "guilty" in quotes because it's not guilt, it's calming signals which dogs use to diffuse any tension or aggression directed towards them, or anticipated tension/aggression.

tk123

Your dog sounds bored so possibly you need to look into leaving interactive toys for him like kongs etc to keep him occupied and tired him out instead if assuming he's being 'bold'

aonb

DBB wrote: »

Indeed, you'll find vids on you tube, of an owner coming home to, say, a puddle of pee on the floor. But they've two dogs. And it's not necessarily the one who did it that has the "guilty" look, this dog is invariably the more sensitive of the two.

Our young dog is very sensitive. Our elderly dog can sometimes pee/poo in the house if left indoors for a few hours. We never give out to any of our dogs who were caught short - hey, we left them 'locked' indoors! - but the minute we walk into the house, the young dog will start cowering, even tho it wasnt him that made the mess. (The odd thing is that we've never made a fuss about poos/pee on the floor - they're wood or tiles so easliy cleaned) - so why has he always gotten upset when there is a mess?!?) The older dog/culprit doesnt bat an eyelid :rolleyes:

Zulu

Yeah they fu*king know!
Our little git jumped up and gobbled up 18 out of 20 freshly baked fairy cakes while herself was changing a nappy. And I'm 100% sure she assessed the situation and determined that the reward was worth the reprimand. Feckin labs can't help themselves. It's like leaving crack out in front of a crack addict.

strandroad

tk123, no worries, he gets plenty of toys, stuffed kongs, frozen kongs, chewies, stuffed bottles... I never just throw cereal boxes away, I tape them around with some treats inside so that he can happily destroy them. He's not left for the whole day either, he has another dog for company and he's exercised daily until he can barely walk so I'm happy with all that but being 2.5yo he still has some energy to spill over and I don't blame him! If he makes a mess with his toys we don't care

DBB, that's some very interesting insights, thank you! I don't think we can recall how exactly it happened for the first time but I'll observe him greeting us closely! As you can see, it's not even about him making a mess with his toys, it's about him taking unauthorised objects - I have no clue how it's different in his eyes! He took a box of teabags from the kitchen top to tear apart last week - when my OH came home he was greeted by the dog literally rolling over to show his belly (we DON'T hit him!). Actually now that I'm writing it - he's a poundie, so who knows how and for what he was disciplined before us? Could he have some flashbacks?

Zulu he's a lab x pointer; talk about greed & reach!

tk123

mhge wrote: »

I never just throw cereal boxes away, I tape them around with some treats inside so that he can happily destroy them.

:pac: I can just imaging somebody sitting to pour a bowl of cornflakes and treats coming out instead lol! :pac:

strandroad

tk123 wrote: »

:pac: I can just imaging somebody sitting to pour a bowl of cornflakes and treats coming out instead lol! :pac:

And smears of peanut butter

kylith

mhge wrote: »

Actually now that I'm writing it - he's a poundie, so who knows how and for what he was disciplined before us? Could he have some flashbacks?

That could well be it, you never know what's happened poundies in the past. One of mine has never had a hand raised to her in anger while I've had her but, even after 6 years, you can't lift your leg to step over her or even just to climb on a chair without her running in fear.

DBB

Zulu wrote: »

Yeah they fu*king know!
Our little git jumped up and gobbled up 18 out of 20 freshly baked fairy cakes while herself was changing a nappy. And I'm 100% sure she assessed the situation and determined that the reward was worth the reprimand. Feckin labs can't help themselves. It's like leaving crack out in front of a crack addict.

Wellll, they don't really *know*. I hope you'll forgive me a nerdy learning theory rant here!:o
Your dog didn't do what she did despite knowing she'd be given out to, because the truth is that dogs don't really know they're going to be given out to: if they did, they wouldn't do it! This is really difficult for humans to understand because we can reflect on previous incidents, and bridge the gap between action and delayed consequence (well, to an extent we can... but the death penalty doesn't stop people from murdering others... an argument against the effectiveness of delayed punishment).
But dogs can't. They are associative learners, which means that the consequence has to happen very quickly for them to make the association between behaviour and consequence. If owners try to put themselves into the dog's mind, and view the world in a very "here and now" way, they might get a better idea of where their dog is coming from.

So, there's a big plate of buns on the counter. Dog says "Yum! They look good! Think I'll have them!"
And dog eats them.
Seconds afterwards, the owner comes into the room, and gives out to the dog for stealing the buns. The dog displays the usual range of calming/appeasement signals to try to defray this anger.

Two days later, there's another plate of buns on the counter. Because the punishment the last time was too far removed from the behaviour, the dog cannot predict that bun eating= trouble, and so, bearing in mind their "here and now" mindset, the dog says....
"Yum! They look good! Think I'll have them!"

The dog just cannot string together things that he did a few minutes ago (we can teach them to chain behaviours, but this is not quite the same thing), with what's happening now: remember, to think in the "here and now"!
Instead of thinking "oh damn. She's giving out to me because I ate the buns. I shouldn't have eaten the buns. I won't do that again", the dog says something along the lines of "oh feck. She's really angry. There's a pile of bun wrappers on the floor. She's got *that* face on. I'd better try to calm her down a bit".
And in this way, the mess on the floor (or whatever... chewed furniture, pool of pee, chewed box of chocs etc etc) becomes part of the scenario that the dog learns to associate with an angry owner... but he cannot realise that if he hadn't done it in the first place, he wouldn't be in trouble now.
If your dog was caught right in the act, and your OH punished her right there and then, your dog would be less likely to ever repeat this stealing behaviour. But if the punishment comes seconds after the act, the association is not made.. the only association the dog develops is the sight of *that* face, and as I said above, perhaps the pile of bun wrappers/crisp packets/sofa/skirting board on the floor is a salient cue too.
There is research to back this up!

Dogs were tested to see if they are more likely to steal stuff when their owner isn't watching. They are!
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2006-09888-001


And this is some of the research to back up the observation that dogs don't *do* guilt, but instead are responding to their owner's and environmental cues in utilising appeasement gestures:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376635709001004

DBB

mhge wrote: »

I never just throw cereal boxes away, I tape them around with some treats inside so that he can happily destroy them... If he makes a mess with his toys we don't care

Be potentially careful here... if he's allowed rip up old cereal packs, can he be expected to discriminate between the cardboard boxes he's allowed have, and the ones he's not? Perhaps shredding other cardboard-box-like objects (I'd be tempted to include books and other papery stuff in this) isn't a problem with him, in which case this is a moot point, but it is something for owners to be aware of in case we make a stick to beat ourselves with!

DBB, that's some very interesting insights, thank you! I don't think we can recall how exactly it happened for the first time but I'll observe him greeting us closely!

It's too late to make this observation: what I was interested in was, did he ever shred stuff in the new set-up, and NOT show any appeasement behaviours, in the early days of the new set-up? In other words, has he (quickly) learned to do the whole appeasement thing because he knows the pile of shredded stuff is upstairs, and shredded stuff=trouble?

As you can see, it's not even about him making a mess with his toys, it's about him taking unauthorised objects - I have no clue how it's different in his eyes!

There is a behaviour described by behaviourists as "separation fun"... it looks superficially like separation anxiety, but the reason for it is very different, and it's possibly more common than true separation anxiety. Dogs are really smart at figuring out that if their owner isn't there, then stuff they're usually banned from having in the presence of their owner is now fair game, because there's nobody there to stop them! So yes, your dog has some concept of stuff being "forbidden", but only in the context of you being there to stop him having almighty fun with it!
The paper I quoted above supports this... if the owner isn't watching,t he dog is more likely to steal stuff!
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2006-09888-001

Separation fun also serves to support the theory that dogs just don't make the connection between doing something highly rewarding now (shredding the tea bag box, eating buns) and being punished for it later, and that dogs are very "here and now" animals.

He took a box of teabags from the kitchen top to tear apart last week

Ahh, oops! I see my cardboard box theory above may potentially have some substance to it!:o

Actually now that I'm writing it - he's a poundie, so who knows how and for what he was disciplined before us? Could he have some flashbacks?

Very likely that he learned his appeasement response to *that* human face before you got him, although lots of very sensitive, nervous dogs will do the whole appeasement thing at anything they're not used to, even if they have no history of being punished by humans in this situation. On the contrary, I have a GSD here who has never, ever had a hand raised to her, nor been shouted at, nor abused in any way. If I "pretend shout" at her, she does the doggy equivalent of laughing, because she has no reason to be afraid of me raising my voice. The only time I see any strong appeasement behaviours from her is around other dogs, but not around humans.

strandroad

DBB wrote: »

Be potentially careful here... if he's allowed rip up old cereal packs, can he be expected to discriminate between the cardboard boxes he's allowed have, and the ones he's not? Perhaps shredding other cardboard-box-like objects (I'd be tempted to include books and other papery stuff in this) isn't a problem with him, in which case this is a moot point, but it is something for owners to be aware of in case we make a stick to beat ourselves with!

This is absolutely true. I am kind of okay with giving him cereal boxes though because other food boxes are normally safe in the presses (well, apart from that tea) and he's only ever given them when they contain his treats/peanut butter, also I make a big deal of the fact that he is *given* them, there's a handing over ceremony But yeah, I can see how it could be a risk. When he went after one of my shoes, I made sure I threw them both into the bin immediately - they would make good chewies but he needs to know shoes are still out of bounds.

Ideally I would like to teach him to leave stuff in peace based not on the type of object, but on the fact whether he's been given something or not...

It's too late to make this observation: what I was interested in was, did he ever shred stuff in the new set-up, and NOT show any appeasement behaviours, in the early days of the new set-up? In other words, has he (quickly) learned to do the whole appeasement thing because he knows the pile of shredded stuff is upstairs, and shredded stuff=trouble?

He could very well have - he's not nervous or shy, but he's very eager to please. Thinks he's a lapdog too.

There is a behaviour described by behaviourists as "separation fun"... it looks superficially like separation anxiety, but the reason for it is very different, and it's possibly more common than true separation anxiety. Dogs are really smart at figuring out that if their owner isn't there, then stuff they're usually banned from having in the presence of their owner is now fair game, because there's nobody there to stop them! So yes, your dog has some concept of stuff being "forbidden", but only in the context of you being there to stop him having almighty fun with it!
The paper I quoted above supports this... if the owner isn't watching,t he dog is more likely to steal stuff!
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2006-09888-001

Separation fun also serves to support the theory that dogs just don't make the connection between doing something highly rewarding now (shredding the tea bag box, eating buns) and being punished for it later, and that dogs are very "here and now" animals.

I think this is dead on. I'm definitely going to read more about it, it sounds so like him and his wandering eye. I'm quite sure he has loads of fun with the stuff he grabs, he's a cheerful, playful fella in general and you can see from the trajectory of remains that he must have been euphoric ripping something up (with his toys being feet away, but sure they are just toys).

Now this is only happening maybe once or twice a fortnight (most of the time he just drags something sticking out from the recycling bin) so I'm really more curious than mad in any way; just trying to figure out his thinking for training purposes! He'll be neutered soon too so we'll see how much of the fun was in his hormones.

Zulu

DBB wrote: »

Wellll, they don't really *know*. I hope you'll forgive me a nerdy learning theory rant here!:o ...

Don't get me wrong - you're right, but there's room for you to be wrong!

Say the first time the dog jumps up and gobbles the buns I'm there, and I immediately scold her. The next time, I'm there and I scold her. So she learns that it's not ok to jump up.

Now fast forward a few months.

I'm not there, but the buns are. She's not perfect. She sees the buns. Shes a lab. She hasn't eaten in about 20 mins. She's starving. There's yummy buns. She's wasting away. And the buns. Sweet baby jesus the buns... He won't notice one. Om nom nom nom oh christ these buns are good. Even the paper tastes good. Sure theres a load. Om nom nom nom Om nom nom nom Om nom nom nom Om nom nom nom Om nom nom nom Om nom nom nom.

**** here he is.

I'm telling you now. That little bitch knew full well what she was doing. She runs past when her head down before you've noticed that anythings missing!

aonb

that description made me laugh out loud!!! All I can say is THANK GOD dogs cant talk - my whiny/stressy/insecure/thickish youngest dog would be a nightmare

DBB

Zulu wrote: »

I'm telling you now. That little bitch knewsimple: well what she was doing. She runs past when her head down before you've noticed that anythings missing!

Whilst your description of what she did is funny, I think you're interpreting her incorrectly.
You're asserting that she "knows" that stealing stuff is "wrong". That she consciously makes a decision which she knows the moral value of.
She doesn't.
She knows that if you're in the room, stealing stuff will make you angry, so she doesn't do it.
It's not the same thing.
Running past with head down is for the reasons I explained above... She sees *that* face, or *that* tone of voice, and she has learned that this is a prelude to a telling off.
Can dogs weigh up whether the reward is worth the punishment? Possibly, but I'm willing to bet that this is not how the dog views it.
Again, cf the paper I linked to... Last time she stole buns she did it because she knew there was no humans watching, and her "here and now" brain told her that the usual cue for punishment was not there, so taking the buns was okay.
If she knew that stealing buns was "wrong", or indeed effectively knew that doing so would get her punished, she wouldn't do it.
The basic tenet of observing and explaining behaviour is to keep it simple: until evidence is produced to definitively tell us that animals *can* moralise, or reflect on past deeds, and such evidence has not yet been produced despite extensive, exhaustive efforts by behavioural scientists, then we need to stick with the simplest, most likely explanation.
In this context, every anthropomorphic wrongdoing we put on our dogs can be explained by simple learning theory, rather than some higher moral argument of whether animals know right from wrong. They do what works for them. It's as simple as that.