Breaking Bad Episode 15: Granite State

Torqay

Of course, killing Gale was important for the story, but it doesn't change the fact Jesse has committed enough crimes to put him away for life and then some. Whether he was under Walt's spell or not does make little difference. And I don't buy this "poor remorseful Jesse" BS, he only blames Walter for everything bad happening to him when it was him who made all the wrong choices in life.

Torqay

DublinWriter wrote: »

Walt has most definitely got the M60 to deal with the biker gang.

Biker gang? Wrong show!

Mousewar

Torqay wrote: »

Of course, killing Gale was important for the story, but it doesn't change the fact Jesse has committed enough crimes to put him away for life and then some. Whether he was under Walt's spell or not does make little difference. And I don't buy this "poor remorseful Jesse" BS, he only blames Walter for everything bad happening to him when it was him who made all the wrong choices in life.

Not sure what you're arguing here. Sure he hates Walt, but he's perfectly aware of his own fault. That's what he's remorseful about. As he said himself: "I'm the bad guy". Point is that he actually feels bad about it all - Walt doesn't.

Wacker The Attacker

Penn wrote: »

Constantly betrayed and manipulated by who he thought was his friend and mentor, who went to the extent of poisoning a child Jesse cared about in order to manipulate him.

"Crybaby rat bitch" is not the term I'd use for Jesse. Think about all Jesse has been through because of Walt. Beaten up by Tuco. Almost killed by Tuco. One of his best friends is killed because Walt pushed to take over rival drug dealers territory. Girlfriend died because of Walt (if he hadn't shown up she wouldn't have rolled over) and Walt let Jesse believe it was his own fault. Badly beaten up by Hank. Had to kill Gale to save Walt's life. Finally getting a sense of self-worth and pride by helping Mike and Gus until Walt poisons Brock to manipulate him to turning against Gus. Walt kills Mike who was becoming a better friend and mentor to Jesse. Walt takes all Jesse's money in an effort to manipulate him into continuing to cook with him.

Even after all that, Jesse still wasn't going to talk to the cops. It was only when he found out about the poisoning that made him do it.

Walt has thoroughly and completely ruined Jesse's life. But Jesse isn't a gangster. He isn't some mob guy. He was just a small-time wannabe who made a little bit of meth and tried to act a lot tougher than he was. He has no reason to keep quiet to the cops and not "rat". Not after everything Walt's done.

I didn't invent "crybaby rat bitch". Jacks words. (or a close resemblance thereof).

Or to paraphrase your last paragraph. Jesse couldn't stand the heat yet made no attempt to leave the kitchen. He knew he didn't have the bollocks for the meth trade and yet persisted. He doesn't deserve sympathy. He has lived and will die by his own decisions. Much like Walter probably will.

Torqay

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

It's all his fault.

F**k him

Righteo

Wacker The Attacker

Mousewar wrote: »

Not sure what you're arguing here. Sure he hates Walt, but he's perfectly aware of his own fault. That's what he's remorseful about. As he said himself: "I'm the bad guy". Point is that he actually feels bad about it all - Walt doesn't.

Shouldn't that be rueful. As I've mentioned earlier. Jesse ever had the wherewithal for the high level meth trade that he became involved with. He got involved with the big boys and was crushed by them prettily easily.

The very fact that he has spent the entire series getting crapped on by the drug gods is testament to this fact.

Jesse is a scumbag. He's a junkie, a drug dealer and a murderer. Why the hell he gets any sympathy is beyond me.

Wacker The Attacker

Torqay wrote: »

Righteo

Jesse has neither the balls or the brain for this business. This is exactly what would have happened to him to in real life.

He would have been swatted aside by somebody with a bigger ballbag

greenflash

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Jesse is a scumbag. He's a junkie, a drug dealer and a murderer. Why the hell he gets any sympathy is beyond me.

Because as much as Walt is breaking bad, Jesse is breaking good.

Mousewar

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Shouldn't that be rueful. As I've mentioned earlier. Jesse ever had the wherewithal for the high level meth trade that he became involved with. He got involved with the big boys and was crushed by them prettily easily.

The very fact that he has spent the entire series getting crapped on by the drug gods is testament to this fact.

Jesse is a scumbag. He's a junkie, a drug dealer and a murderer. Why the hell he gets any sympathy is beyond me.

Because he's a human that made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them. If you only had sympathy for completely blameless people then you'd never have sympathy for anyone.

Wacker The Attacker

greenflash wrote: »

Because as much as Walt is breaking bad, Jesse is breaking good.

No. Just no. He's a scumbag. Maybe not in walter whites league but a scumbag nonetheless

Wacker The Attacker

Mousewar wrote: »

Because he's a human that made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them. If you only had sympathy for completely blameless people then you'd never have sympathy for anyone.

Walter White "made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them".

Does this entitle to him sympathy? Absolutely not. I fail to see why Jesse should be viewed any differently.

They were partners. They may not be in the same bracket here but they are guilty of the same thing to a greater or lesser degree

Wacker The Attacker

jcsoulinger wrote: »

Maybe Walt dies saving jesse, then jesse is compelled to deliver walts money to Walt Jr.

At which point he'll probably be told to f**k off

Mousewar

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Walter White "made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them".

Does this entitle to him sympathy? Absolutely not. I fail to see why Jesse should be viewed any differently.

They were partners. They may not be in the same bracket here but they are guilty of the same thing to a greater or lesser degree

Entitle is the wrong word but yes I do have sympathy for him as well.

They've both done evil things but only one of them has been inherently corrupted by evil. That sets Jessie apart but I have sympathy for both. You seem eager to just condemn them both to hell.

Dman001

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Walter White "made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them".

Does this entitle to him sympathy? Absolutely not. I fail to see why Jesse should be viewed any differently.

They were partners. They may not be in the same bracket here but they are guilty of the same thing to a greater or lesser degree

A lot of what Jesse has done had been the cause of manipulation from Walt. He has said no many times to Walt, and voiced up when he thought something shouldn't be done. But Walt's dominance and influence over him has lead him down so many roads which have caused murders and pain. Walt doesn't accept "no" when there's a chance to make money or that saves his own ass. Look at all the beatings Jesse has taken from Krazy 8, Tuco, Hank and now the Nazis. How many has Walt received? Jesse's decisions a lot of the time are due to the fact he is between a rock and a hard place.

Now that's not to say he shouldn't have rubbed his hands from the meth business altogether - he should have, and eventually did. And even that was struggle, and a fight against Walt. Jesse is an immature guy that was lead down a constant dark downward spiral due to to the actions of Walt and his huge ego. That's why viewers sympathise with him.

Wacker The Attacker

Dman001 wrote: »

A lot of what Jesse has done had been the cause of manipulation from Walt. He has said no many times to Walt, and voiced up when he thought something shouldn't be done. But Walt's dominance and influence over him has lead him down so many roads which have caused murders and pain. Walt doesn't accept "no" when there's a chance to make money or that saves his own ass. Look at all the beatings Jesse has taken from Krazy 8, Tuco, Hank and now the Nazis. How many has Walt received? Jesse's decisions a lot of the time are due to the fact he is between a rock and a hard place.

Now that's not to say he shouldn't have rubbed his hands from the meth business altogether - he should have, and eventually did. And even that was struggle, and a fight against Walt. Jesse is an immature guy that was lead down a constant dark downward spiral due to to the actions of Walt and his huge ego. That's why viewers sympathise with him.

Does this make it ok?

Walter manipulated Jesse because he could.

Wacker The Attacker

Mousewar wrote: »

Entitle is the wrong word but yes I do have sympathy for him as well.

They've both done evil things but only one of them has been inherently corrupted by evil. That sets Jessie apart but I have sympathy for both. You seem eager to just condemn them both to hell.

Why is it necessary to draw a distinction? Shouldn't they be judged by their actions?

Penn

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Why is it necessary to draw a distinction? Shouldn't they be judged by their actions?

May I ask, who do you sympathise with in the show (discounting Walt.Jr and Holly for obvious reasons)?

Dman001

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Does this make it ok?

Walter manipulated Jesse because he could.

Nope! But Jesse has only actually killed Gale (as far as I can recall, really need to rewatch). And, as best as I can remember, this was due to the fact that Walt's life was at stake at the time. Jesse's dilemma was does he live with the guilt of killing Gale, or live with the guilt of letting Walt die. We know that Jesse held some respect for Walt, and saw he somewhat as a father figure, which lead to his ultimate decision. Now, that still doesn't mean what he did was right at all. But we can respect the moral dilemma he faced. And he became "broken" after he killed him, it genuinely affected him.

You say that Walt manipulated Jesse because he could. Does this make it okay, and excuse Walt's involvement in Jesse's actions?? I don't think so.

Wacker The Attacker

Penn wrote: »

May I ask, who do you sympathise with in the show (discounting Walt.Jr and Holly for obvious reasons)?

Nobody with the exception of perhaps Marie.

Walter is Walter.

Jesse has committed crimes that do not deserve sympathy. Manipulated or not.

Skyler was complicit. Her predicament is probably worse than she deserves but she is far from blame free. Again her own actions have compounded her problems as much as Walter's have.

Hanks death was almost inevitable from the time he decided to go rogue so to speak. Hindsight is always 20\20 but he'd have done well to take Marie's advise. He knew his life was in danger from the moment he went after Walt given the circumstances.

Marie has done little wrong and, as such, would deserve an element of sympathy.

Saul is f**ked and he knows it. Hence his trip to Nebraska.

Mike didn't deserve to go the way he did.

Lydia is still an unknown quantity.

The Nazis look to have a sh1tstorm coming their way

Torqay

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Nobody with the exception of perhaps Marie.

Don't forget Uncle Jack who did pretty much everything right until he spared the lives of Jesse and Walt. Seriously, how f***ing stupid was that? Two bullets, a good banker and a plane ticket was all he needed to enjoy the rest of his life on some island in the sun.

Wacker The Attacker

Dman001 wrote: »

Nope! But Jesse has only actually killed Gale (as far as I can recall, really need to rewatch). And, as best as I can remember, this was due to the fact that Walt's life was at stake at the time. Jesse's dilemma was does he live with the guilt of killing Gale, or live with the guilt of letting Walt die. We know that Jesse held some respect for Walt, and saw he somewhat as a father figure, which lead to his ultimate decision. Now, that still doesn't mean what he did was right at all. But we can respect the moral dilemma he faced. And he became "broken" after he killed him, it genuinely affected him.

You say that Walt manipulated Jesse because he could. Does this make it okay, and excuse Walt's involvement in Jesse's actions?? I don't think so.

I never suggested that.

Several, if not all of the murders that Walter has been involved in have had moral or practical connotations. None have been for the sake of it. None can be condoned but you can see why he did it

The feelings that Jesse had for walter were reciprocated for the most part.

Wacker The Attacker

Torqay wrote: »

Don't forget Uncle Jack who did pretty much everything right until he spared the lives of Jesse and Walt. Seriously, how f***ing stupid was that? Two bullets, a good banker and a plane ticket was all he needed to enjoy the rest of his life on some island in the sun.

Lydia has also done everything by the book. She just needs to get her wabs out

Mousewar

There but for the grace of god go I.
I often think of that saying, not when I see some unwitting victim of some crime or tragedy, but when I see someone who has done wrong and been corrupted by evil. One of the strongest themes of BrBa is how easy it is for evil to take over your life and your being once you let it in - that honourable intentions can be usurped and perverted. I have a lot of sympathy for such people because I so easily see how I could end up following the same path were circumstances for me different.
So if I can have sympathy for Walt who has cold-bloodedly had people murdered and who manipulated everyone around him - I can definitely have sympathy for Jessie whose crimes by any barometer are far less and which have far more mitigating factors than those of Walt.

Torqay

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Lydia has also done everything by the book.

Except maybe walking arund in the desert in 5" stiletto heels.

Wacker The Attacker

Torqay wrote: »

Except maybe walking arund in the desert in 5" stiletto heels.

True. That was a slip up

Wacker The Attacker

Mousewar wrote: »

There but for the grace of god go I.
I often think of that saying, not when I see some unwitting victim of some crime or tragedy, but when I see someone who has done wrong and been corrupted by evil. One of the strongest themes of BrBa is how easy it is for evil to take over your life and your being once you let it in - that honourable intentions can be usurped and perverted. I have a lot of sympathy for such people because I so easily see how I could end up following the same path were circumstances for me different.
So if I can have sympathy for Walt who has cold-bloodedly had people murdered and who manipulated everyone around him - I can definitely have sympathy for Jessie whose crimes by any barometer are far less and which have far more mitigating factors than those of Walt.[/QUOTE]


You either have sympathy for both or neither.

Nerdlingr

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

You either have sympathy for both or neither.

Eh, no. Its not as black and white as that at all. If anything this show has shown us how blurred the lines can become between good and evil...Of course you can sympathy for one and not the other.

Penn

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

You either have sympathy for both or neither.

No. Degree matters. Circumstances matter. You shouldn't judge someone in Breaking Bad solely by their actions and not take the causes and effects into consideration. Jesse killing Gale is not equal to Tuco killing No-Doze. Hector Salamanca killing Gus' friend is not equal to Hank killing The Cousins.

Degree matters, as does the characters' motivations, intentions, remorse and how they react.

Shout Dust

greenflash wrote: »

Because as much as Walt is breaking bad, Jesse is breaking good.

But Jesse tried to burn down Walts house just a couple of episodes ago

trashcan

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Nobody with the exception of perhaps Marie.

Walter is Walter.

Jesse has committed crimes that do not deserve sympathy. Manipulated or not.

Skyler was complicit. Her predicament is probably worse than she deserves but she is far from blame free. Again her own actions have compounded her problems as much as Walter's have.

Hanks death was almost inevitable from the time he decided to go rogue so to speak. Hindsight is always 20\20 but he'd have done well to take Marie's advise. He knew his life was in danger from the moment he went after Walt given the circumstances.

Marie has done little wrong and, as such, would deserve an element of sympathy.

Saul is f**ked and he knows it. Hence his trip to Nebraska.

Mike didn't deserve to go the way he did.

Lydia is still an unknown quantity.

The Nazis look to have a sh1tstorm coming their way

Hang on, doesn't that undermine your argument re Jesse ? Mike committed far worse crimes than Jesse, and was perfectly willing to kill both Walter and Jesse on the say so of Gus remember ? Yet, you have sympathy for him, and Jesse deserves everything he gets ? Hmmmmm....

If it's just because you preferred him as a character, then fair enough, but don't use the morality of peoples actions in that case.

Mousewar

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Eh, no. Its not as black and white as that at all. If anything this show has shown us how blurred the lines can become between good and evil...Of course you can sympathy for one and not the other.

Not me that said that.

Nerdlingr

Mousewar wrote: »

Not me that said that.

sorry. my mistake.. meant to quote the other post!* changed now!

Neil McCauleys Cooler Brother

Just clearing up something here for a poster some pages ago... I was just throwing out the idea that maybe Gretchen's father offered Walt a job in this new company he was buying into (Madrigal) all those years ago. A mere Mystic Meg moment.

Wacker The Attacker

trashcan wrote: »

Hang on, doesn't that undermine your argument re Jesse ? Mike committed far worse crimes than Jesse, and was perfectly willing to kill both Walter and Jesse on the say so of Gus remember ? Yet, you have sympathy for him, and Jesse deserves everything he gets ? Hmmmmm....

If it's just because you preferred him as a character, then fair enough, but don't use the morality of peoples actions in that case.

How? I didn't commend mikes crimes. I just thought he didn't deserve to die in those particular circumstances. Mike doesn't garner sympathy from anyone in the same way Jesse seems to

A Primal Nut

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

How? I didn't commend mikes crimes. I just thought he didn't deserve to die in those particular circumstances. Mike doesn't garner sympathy from anyone in the same way Jesse seems to

Because Jesse shows remorse? And also that his current predicament is worse than anything Mike was exposed to.

Ilik Urgee

What's the earliest time this can be seen on netflix folks?

Chet T16

This one is already on there, last one i would say 9am monday

Ilik Urgee

Chet T16 wrote: »

This one is already on there, last one i would say 9am monday

Sleep mode must've already kicked in:o

Torqay

Shout Dust wrote: »

But Jesse tried to burn down Walts house just a couple of episodes ago

John Dodger

scamalert wrote: »

I wonder why they didn't kill jessie yet,basically they achieved high percentage needed and color.So whats there left to learn from him,they could of easily killed him in last episode,since agreement was only one cook with Heisenberg.So its either they will keep jessie as last man standing-who will later kill himself overdose or smth.As keeping him to shoot just plain blank would not cause omg scene.

Also walts car was left in the desert surely someone had to find and trace it back to area where hank was killed,as when walt was leaving he turned mirrors and you could clearly see two graves,and enough evidence to suspect some gang by the amount of bullets left in the place,otherwise authorities would be portrayed as bunch of clowns in entire series,even raided house would of provided some evidence,knowing that gang is mostly ex cons.Anyway this is a bit weak link in entire series when at most you see 2 agents working empire case,unless new mexico has 2 agents in total :pac:

Why learn to cook when you have a slave it do if for free, and when the quality is essential to plans it get your leg over?

Just because we haven't seen them discover the bodies doesn't mean they havnt been found - as you indicate finding them would be fairly easy. I would assume they have been found & funerals had already as it is unimportant to the rest of the story.

The reason there were only 2 agents working the case is because it was unofficial for reasons that were obvious - and which Hank stated.

John Dodger

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Its a couple of years since I saw it so my memory might be hazy but didn't Walt and Gretchen have a thing going on and then she opted for elliot and that is why Walt bailed out of the company?

It's been hinted at that Gretchen & Walt had "at thing" but it's never been made clear if they did or the circumstances under which he left Gray Matter.

Wacker The Attacker

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Because Jesse shows remorse? And also that his current predicament is worse than anything Mike was exposed to.

So what?

John Dodger

Jikashi wrote: »

Wonder if the final twist of the series will involve the true identity of Flynn's unseen buddy Lewis

I've seen Lewis. He's in Breaking Bad. You should watch it.

joe123

Am I in the minority when I say that I like walt and dislike jesse?

They had a good thing going with Gus but Jesse had to go and seek revenge on the two guys who killed the kid. Walt saved jesse at that point.

Killer_banana

joe123 wrote: »

Am I in the minority when I say that I like walt and dislike jesse?

They had a good thing going with Gus but Jesse had to go and seek revenge on the two guys who killed the kid. Walt saved jesse at that point.

I won't comment but Dean Norris has said anyone who still supports Walt is a 'sick ****'.

Jikashi

John Dodger wrote: »

I've seen Lewis. He's in Breaking Bad. You should watch it.

I was mistaken, as was pointed out several pages ago.
He's a very very minor character who is mostly outside the scene or on the other end of a phone. When he does appear, it's for seconds at a time, by no consistent actor, in like two episodes, the last of which aired more than two years ago. Get your head out of your ass.

John Dodger

tommy2bad wrote: »

A lot of the gaps in plot and character development are down to the jumps in time. We are missing some exposition and sense of story arch. Could be just bad writing or needing to give a sense of urgency to a plot that is spread over 4 months or more. It's all their in the show but not as obvious as it could have been.
Or it could be just that we expect too much from a TV show. Standards are high these days. You never had this kind of expectation for The Rockford Files or The Waltons!.

What gaps?

A Primal Nut

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Because Jesse shows remorse? And also that his current predicament is worse than anything Mike was exposed to.

To be fair, we don't really know what Mike was exposed to prior to his debut in Breaking Bad (do we know much about his history?).

He seems nonchalant throughout every appearance he's made, regardless of what he's doing. At some point in time he's obviously had something happen that's made him become emotionally detached to everything around him.

Jikashi

Deleted User wrote: »

At some point in time he's obviously had something happen that's made him become emotionally detached to everything around him.

He did talk to Walter about the incident over which he left the police force, where he gave a second chance to a domestic abuser which resulted in the woman ending up dead.

John Dodger

conorhal wrote: »

I assumed that it could be ingested.
Oh well, mythbustser fail......

It can be ingested but does not work like you suggested.

If you watched BB you'd know that.