Any laws broken?

No Pants

Let me quickly describe a scenario:

1. I rent an apartment.
2. I fit it with internal CCTV.
3. I hire an escort and task her with hooking up with a particular man, bringing him back to the apartment and having sex.
4. I then send a recording of this man having sex to his wife.

Assuming the apartment is a short let and I agree to whatever conditions on the lease etc. and that any damage to the apartment is repaired/covered, what laws have I broken through my actions?

Bepolite

You're going to be in big trouble with the PRTB if you leave holes in the walls.

uck51js9zml2yt

Bepolite wrote: »

You're going to be in big trouble with the PRTB if you leave holes in the walls.

data protection. recording an individual without his permission, breach of privacy, voyeurism.. just to start with

Pro Hoc Vice

See the following http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0017.html#zza2y1994s17

May also depending on the exact facts be a charge of managing a brothel.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0020/sec0009.html#sec9

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0020/sec0010.html#sec10

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0020/sec0011.html#sec11

The above sections may have been amended so check any amendments.

No Pants

Maddux Loud Pocketful wrote: »

data protection. recording an individual without his permission, breach of privacy, voyeurism.. just to start with

How can he have expectation of privacy in an apartment that isn't his? As for recording people without their permission, that happens every time I walk down the street.

Paulw

In public (walking down the street), you have no right to privacy.

In a private building (even not your own) you have an expectation of privacy.

burstbuckle

No Pants wrote: »

How can he have expectation of privacy in an apartment that isn't his? As for recording people without their permission, that happens every time I walk down the street.

A street is a public place where you can't expect privacy,an apartment isn't,using your logic I could rent a hotel room install hidden cameras & the people who stay in the room after me have no right to privacy

Pro Hoc Vice

Paulw wrote: »

In public (walking down the street), you have no right to privacy.

In a private building (even not your own) you have an expectation of privacy.

The least of the persons worries would be the data commissioner.

No Pants

infosys wrote: »

See the following http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0017.html#zza2y1994s17

May also depending on the exact facts be a charge of managing a brothel.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0020/sec0009.html#sec9

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0020/sec0010.html#sec10

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0020/sec0011.html#sec11

The above sections may have been amended so check any amendments.

Let me make one thing clear here. There will be no demands for money. Not one cent from anyone. There is to be no blackmail or extortion. There will be no "menacing" of anyone. I will have to pay for the apartment, the CCTV, the escort, any repairs and the delivery of the recording to the man's wife.

Pro Hoc Vice

No Pants wrote: »

Let me make one thing clear here. There will be no demands for money. Not one cent from anyone. There is to be no blackmail or extortion. There will be no "menacing" of anyone. I will have to pay for the apartment, the CCTV, the escort, any repairs and the delivery of the recording to the man's wife.

The the issue in relation to prostitution may be used, if blackmail is not being used.

Australia, has a law that may cover the exact offence, http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s91k.html not aware of any similar exact law here. There may be some common law criminal matter as well.

No Pants

infosys wrote: »

The the issue in relation to prostitution may be used, if blackmail is not being used.

I don't think I'm in breach of the other laws you quoted, but yeah, the brothel keeping one looks like an obstacle.

In relation to expectation of privacy, how does that work with private security systems. For example, if I call round to a house, and they have CCTV on their property, both outside and at entry points to the house such as the front and back doors, are they in breach of any laws if I don't notice the cameras and they don't mention them?

Pro Hoc Vice

No Pants wrote: »

I don't think I'm in breach of the other laws you quoted, but yeah, the brothel keeping one looks like an obstacle.

In relation to expectation of privacy, how does that work with private security systems. For example, if I call round to a house, and they have CCTV on their property, both outside and at entry points to the house such as the front and back doors, are they in breach of any laws if I don't notice the cameras and they don't mention them?

This section may apply to data breach, http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0025/sec0022.html#sec22

Disclosure of personal data which was obtained without authority

The Data Protection Acts deal with the threat to privacy posed by persons who are not data controllers or data processors (or their employees) and who, having obtained unauthorised access to personal information, then disclose it to others. Under section 22 of the Acts, such conduct is an offence. This unauthorised access can occur in various ways. In the case of electronic data the most obvious is "hacking", i.e. obtaining access from a point remote from the computer by electronic means. Unauthorised access can also occur by someone gaining access to a data controller's equipment when the staff are not present. Someone might steal, or take without authority, a diskette or tape or manual file on which data are recorded. Or someone (other than the data controller or his staff) could be in a position to read personal data being shown on the computer screen or to read a printout. But whichever way the unauthorised access takes place, it will be an offence if the person concerned, having gained access, proceeds to disclose to another person the information he or she has accessed.

No Pants

infosys wrote: »

This section may apply to data breach, http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0025/sec0022.html#sec22

Disclosure of personal data which was obtained without authority

The Data Protection Acts deal with the threat to privacy posed by persons who are not data controllers or data processors (or their employees) and who, having obtained unauthorised access to personal information, then disclose it to others. Under section 22 of the Acts, such conduct is an offence. This unauthorised access can occur in various ways. In the case of electronic data the most obvious is "hacking", i.e. obtaining access from a point remote from the computer by electronic means. Unauthorised access can also occur by someone gaining access to a data controller's equipment when the staff are not present. Someone might steal, or take without authority, a diskette or tape or manual file on which data are recorded. Or someone (other than the data controller or his staff) could be in a position to read personal data being shown on the computer screen or to read a printout. But whichever way the unauthorised access takes place, it will be an offence if the person concerned, having gained access, proceeds to disclose to another person the information he or she has accessed.

But if it's my apartment and my CCTV, then I'm the data controller, right?

Pro Hoc Vice

No Pants wrote: »

But if it's my apartment and my CCTV, then I'm the data controller, right?

You may or may not be a data controller, I am assuming you are not for the section I produced, but in any event section 22 would cover any disclosure of data. While a agent or employee of a data controller is exempt a data controller is not.

No Pants

So I have three obstacles.

Brothel keeping - if escorts, as distinct from prostitutes, can operate, then there must be a way around this. Employ her to meet him for dinner and/or drinks and whatever happens, happens.

Right to privacy - if there's CCTV fitted for security and he is informed upon entry, then he can make a decision whether to stay or not.

Disclosure of personal data - tricky. I'll have to come back to this.

Pro Hoc Vice

No Pants wrote: »

So I have three obstacles.

Brothel keeping - if escorts, as distinct from prostitutes, can operate, then there must be a way around this. Employ her to meet him for dinner and/or drinks and whatever happens, happens.

Right to privacy - if there's CCTV fitted for security and he is informed upon entry, then he can make a decision whether to stay or not.

Disclosure of personal data - tricky. I'll have to come back to this.

An escort or any person can sell sex legally in ireland as long as it is not done (the selling or buying) in public and it is not done in a brothel. As soon as two or more people are involved it may fall in to illegality, I mean two people on the escort side. Example I agree in my home to do sex things with another person for money no law broken, I on the other hand rent a house, allow another person to do the nasty and I collect the money and provide clean sheets that's then a different matter.

It's no problem recording any person for security or not what matters is if that data is misused, I assume any user of such service would consider it misuse if their partner ended up with copy of sex tape.

johnnyskeleton

Does the law of "bros before hoes" apply in this jurisdiction?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

No Pants

infosys wrote: »

An escort or any person can sell sex legally in ireland as long as it is not done (the selling or buying) in public and it is not done in a brothel. As soon as two or more people are involved it may fall in to illegality, I mean two people on the escort side. Example I agree in my home to do sex things with another person for money no law broken, I on the other hand rent a house, allow another person to do the nasty and I collect the money and provide clean sheets that's then a different matter.

I'm not on the side of the escort though. I'm paying her to have sex with someone else. I receive no money in return. My return is the sex recording.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Santa Cruz

Can you send me a copy of the production ? For artistic purposes only of course

rovoagho

Fred Swanson wrote: »

But you are providing the venue. That is where brothel keeping may come into it.

Pay the hooker to organise everything?

Pro Hoc Vice

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Does the law of "bros before hoes" apply in this jurisdiction?

Yes section 15 of the Best Buds Act 2001, it shall be unlawfull to put the hoes before the bros, contravention of this section can be punished by a fine not exceeding €10,000 and/or 6 months imprisoment.

No Pants

I think using an agent could insulate me from most of it.

Regarding data protection and private property/expectation of privacy; does that mean than anyone who attends a child's birthday party and takes a picture of the child blowing out the candles and uploads it to Facebook is breaking the law?

hidinginthebush

Is this purely hypothetical or are you hatching a scheme op? Seems like a pretty scummy thing to do regardless of legality.

Pro Hoc Vice

No Pants wrote: »

I think using an agent could insulate me from most of it.

Regarding data protection and private property/expectation of privacy; does that mean than anyone who attends a child's birthday party and takes a picture of the child blowing out the candles and uploads it to Facebook is breaking the law?

Conspiracy!

Kristopherus

OP. Are you not blackmailing the wife's husband with that recording?

No Pants

Kristopherus wrote: »

OP. Are you not blackmailing the wife's husband with that recording?

No. Why would I do that?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

No Pants

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I posted a scenario and asked for legal opinions. Is this the correct forum for that?

uck51js9zml2yt

No Pants wrote: »

I think using an agent could insulate me from most of it.

Regarding data protection and private property/expectation of privacy; does that mean than anyone who attends a child's birthday party and takes a picture of the child blowing out the candles and uploads it to Facebook is breaking the law?

unless you have permission.

No Pants

Maddux Loud Pocketful wrote: »

unless you have permission.

I don't think anyone asks for permission in real life.