UVF quotes Martin Luther King on mural

johnnyskeleton

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/use-of-martin-luther-king-quote-on-uvf-mural-perverse-1.1537304

The obviously striking thing is that they have used the words of a celebrated pacificist in support of anonymous violence.

However, I'm curious to understand how exactly the UVF feel that they are the oppressed? They live in the United Kingdom which has traditionally (albeit not any more) held unionist/Protestants in a privileged position and even under power sharing they can hardly be said to be the underdogs.

Granted, militants of both colours are a tiny minority of people but I hardly think they feel oppressed because they are prosecuted for murder, drug dealing, possession of illegal firearms et .

Is it possible that it is a form of taunting ie inviting the oppressed to wrest their freedom from what they perceive to be their government?

woodoo

Claim to be oppressed and that clears some ground to act like an oppressor themselves. Make out like their actions are then in defense rather than offence.

woodoo

woodoo wrote: »

Claim to be oppressed and that clears some ground to act like an oppressor themselves. Make out like their actions are then in defense rather than offence.

And why not? Worked for the Provos, didn't it?

markomuscle

They feel oppressed because Catholics are treated equal to Protestants in the state now, makes them feel insecure.

I am pie

Not a highly intelligent bunch. Everytime I use the correct word to describe them I get banned. Suffice to say that not even the PUP agree with them in this instance.

Having a conversation with these people (I have been up close and personal with them, on one unfortunate occasion I was asked to join up basically because of the bar I was drinking in and because of the street I was born in) is the most depressing thing I can imagine. They are not capable of caring about their community. Paranoid and undereducated.

COYW

Deleted User wrote: »

And why not? Worked for the Provos, didn't it?

Never a truer word spoken and every disgruntled Unionist will cling onto this.

markomuscle wrote: »

They feel oppressed because Catholics are treated equal to Protestants in the state now, makes them feel insecure.

How does that work then? There are Nationalists who are Protestants and Catholics who are Unionists you know.

I am pie wrote: »

Not a highly intelligent bunch.

I wouldn't class their republican opponents as Mensa material.

Tramps Like Us

Deleted User wrote: »

And why not? Worked for the Provos, didn't it?

But nationalists were oppressed and discriminated against...

Femme_Fatale

Deleted User wrote: »

And why not? Worked for the Provos, didn't it?

I wouldn't class their republican opponents as Mensa material.

The whataboutery is particularly early on this thread.

It's... loyalists that this thread is about - I'm not seeing a request from the OP to compare and contrast this particular topic with how their republican counterparts would conduct themselves in a similar situation.

COYW wrote: »

How does that work then? There are Nationalists who are Protestants and Catholics who are Unionists you know.

There are. But you know perfectly well that that poster was referring to catholics in the civil rights era.
I forgot though - it's fashionable among some to pretend catholics never endured woeful discrimination. Looks all "enlightened" and "progressive". If this were a thread about republican paramilitaries, something tells me you wouldn't be barging in with "Well what about what loyalists did" eh? Because that would be whataboutery tripe, as I'm sure you'd agree.

Seriously, it's ok to criticise loyalist thugs - it won't make people think you support republican thugs.

And it's not mandatory to bring up republican paramilitaries every time loyalist paramilitaries are mentioned, unless it's relevant. The people condemning loyalist paramilitaries aren't necessarily denying the atrocities committed by provos you know.

Karl Stein

Deleted User wrote: »

whataboutery

COYW wrote: »

more whataboutery

What do ye think of the mural lads?

Manassas61

Should have kept the George Best mural up. The conflict has entered a different stage now. Get Protestant vote numbers up on the ballot box. That would be my advice and try to use politics.

The Union is safe in regards to Northern Ireland's constitutional position within the United Kingdom. Just vote for true Unionist parties like the DUP who are the biggest Unionist party and do so in bigger numbers.

Destroy the Alliance Party at the next election, get the East Belfast seat back. Politics is the way forward for Protestant people. Start thinking strategically and politically.

The Conservative Catholic vote is something the DUP should be aiming for.

Karl Stein

Manassas61 wrote: »

Get Protestant vote numbers up on the ballot box. That would be my advice and try to use politics.

Shouldn't we be moving away from voting based on religion rather than towards it?

Manassas61

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Shouldn't we be moving away from voting based on religion rather than towards it?

Protestants should be going out and voting more. Getting registered and more politically aware and use strategy. PUL community in general needs to do that and stop letting in parties like Alliance. Forget about NI 21.

Happyman42

Manassas61 wrote: »

Should have kept the George Best mural up. The conflict has entered a different stage now. Get Protestant vote numbers up on the ballot box. That would be my advice and try to use politics.

The Union is safe in regards to Northern Ireland's constitutional position within the United Kingdom. Just vote for true Unionist parties like the DUP who are the biggest Unionist party and do so in bigger numbers.

Destroy the Alliance Party at the next election, get the East Belfast seat back. Politics is the way forward for Protestant people. Start thinking strategically and politically.

The Conservative Catholic vote is something the DUP should be aiming for.

Manassas61 wrote: »

Protestants should be going out and voting more. Getting registered and more politically aware and use strategy. PUL community in general needs to do that and stop letting in parties like Alliance. Forget about NI 21.

Is this a thread about a deliberately provocative mural or a party political broadcast?

seiphil

Fools, trying to kick up tensions again.

COYW

Charlie Rock wrote: »

What do ye think of the mural lads?

I love the murals from both sides of the divide. They are unique to Northern Ireland and should remain. They give the viewer an unique insight into the minds of the people in each community. I don't see the need for their removal. This mural gives the outsider a clear view of how a section of the Unionist community feels at the moment. I firmly believe in the saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words".

That aside, I have no time for violence from either side and have never agreed with it. Democracy has always been the best avenue for the Protestant people. They need to organize themselves properly and build up support for the stable parties like the DUP. I totally agree with Manassas61 when he says that the Conservative Catholic vote is something that the likes of the DUP should be targeting.

FTA69

COYW wrote: »

This mural gives the outsider a clear view of how a section of the Unionist community feels at the moment. I firmly believe in the saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words".

This mural will lead to the "outsider" thinking Loyalist paramilitaries are thick as a bucket of cow-sh*t. They will also see the ridiculousness in right-wing, sectarian paramilitaries quoting a pacifist who believed in inclusiveness. A poster on the parades thread was bemoaning the fact that Belfast Loyalism is scorned internationally. Is it really any wonder when nonsense like this emerges?

Karl Stein

COYW wrote: »

This mural gives the outsider a clear view of how a section of the Unionist community feels at the moment. I firmly believe in the saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words".

This mural is an image of a loyalist gunman with words from MLK bizarrely tagged on. The vast majority of Loyalist gunmen's victims were innocent Catholic civilians.

I have a question for you. How exactly is the glorifying of the mass murder of Catholics, for nothing other than their religion, 'a clear view of how a section of the Unionist community feels at the moment'? Are you saying that 'a section of the Unionist community feels' like returning to the days when these guys were killing innocent Catholics?

They need to organize themselves properly and build up support for the stable parties like the DUP.

Ah yes, have fundamentalist loyalism run into the arms of their 'fur Coat Unionist' manipulators who've done SFA for them other than wind them up over flags and marching.

Brilliant.

Manassas61

Charlie Rock wrote: »

This mural is an image of a loyalist gunman with words from MLK bizarrely tagged on. The vast majority of Loyalist gunmen's victims were innocent Catholic civilians.

I have a question for you. How exactly is the glorifying of the mass murder of Catholics, for nothing other than their religion, 'a clear view of how a section of the Unionist community feels at the moment'? Are you saying that 'a section of the Unionist community feels' like returning to the days when these guys were killing innocent Catholics?



Ah yes, have fundamentalist loyalism run into the arms of their 'fur Coat Unionist' manipulators who've done SFA for them other than wind them up over flags and marching.

Brilliant.

You have so many murals all over Ulster with Republican and Loyalist paramilitary murals. Why are you so surprised at this? People in those communities see them as freedom fighters and protectors of their fellow religious faith.

Protestants need to get out and vote more.

Karl Stein

Manassas61 wrote: »

You have so many murals all over Ulster with Republican and Loyalist paramilitary murals.

The trend was for murals to depict positive aspects of the respective cultures rather than people brandishing weapons. I'm not happy to see the apparent change in direction and tone.

People in those communities see them as freedom fighters

'Freedom fighting' by shooting up bars and bookies full of innocent people?

and protectors of their fellow religious faith.

Right. We've completely departed from reality.

Manassas61

Charlie Rock wrote: »

The trend was for murals to depict positive aspects of the respective cultures rather than people brandishing weapons. I'm not happy to see the apparent change in direction and tone.



'Freedom fighting' by shooting up bars and bookies full of innocent people?



Right. We've completely departed from reality.

That is how people in those Republican and Loyalist communities view it. Otherwise the murals would not be up. I understand this mural has annoyed people in the area but there is so many murals all over the place which depict the conflict, so its no surprise another one has went up.

Manassas61

'Freedom fighting' by shooting up bars and bookies full of innocent people?

Any different from killing two people on a milk float, a 14 year old especially.

Karl Stein

Manassas61 wrote: »

Any different from killing two people on a milk float, a 14 year old especially.

Back to the whataboutery.

Manassas61

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Back to the whataboutery.

Just good you acknowledge it with the PIRA and condemn the Republican murals.

Tramps Like Us

Courtesy of LAD:





They have the right idea, pathetic efforts by loyalists to intimidate and stir up trouble should instead be mocked and laughed at

joseph brand

COYW wrote: »

I love the murals from both sides of the divide. They are unique to Northern Ireland and should remain. They give the viewer an unique insight into the minds of the people in each community. I don't see the need for their removal. This mural gives the outsider a clear view of how a section of the Unionist community feels at the moment. I firmly believe in the saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words".

This isn't a good thing. This mural of a masked killer is a big step backwards. At least the George Best mural was celebrating a Northern Ireland legend. Back of the net!

Isn't it better to have children growing up, playing under the shadow of one of the greatest footballers the world has ever seen, rather than a bloodthirsty gunman?

This decision says a lot about the mentality and intelligence of those involved. I'm trying to think of NI legends, but all I can think of is 'D Ream', which interestingly, Professor Brian Cox (keyboards) was a member of. Their biggest hit, 'Things Can Only Get Better' seems a befitting caption.

Fratton Fred

joseph brand wrote: »

This isn't a good thing. This mural of a masked killer is a big step backwards. At least the George Best mural was celebrating a Northern Ireland legend. Back of the net!

Isn't it better to have children growing up, playing under the shadow of one of the greatest footballers the world has ever seen, rather than a bloodthirsty gunman?

This decision says a lot about the mentality and intelligence of those involved. I'm trying to think of NI legends, but all I can think of is 'D Ream', which interestingly, Professor Brian Cox (keyboards) was a member of. Their biggest hit, 'Things Can Only Get Better' seems a befitting caption.

Stiff little Fingers.

For Forks Sake

Once again from L.A.D, a compilation of all the photoshop jobs they've done on the mural this week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrzivZGUmR4

getzls

The quote surely relates to the circumstances of events in 1913
and the opposition to Home Rule.

Karl Stein

getzls wrote: »

The quote surely relates to the circumstances of events in 1913
and the opposition to Home Rule.

How?

getzls

Charlie Rock wrote: »

How?

I'm thinking they would have been oppressed if they had been forced into an A.I.

tdv123

getzls wrote: »

I'm thinking they would have been oppressed if they had been forced into an A.I.

Well your thinking wrong because no Protestants or Unionists were oppressed in Southern Ireland when the Free State was established.

tdv123

Manassas61 wrote: »

You have so many murals all over Ulster with Republican and Loyalist paramilitary murals. Why are you so surprised at this? People in those communities see them as freedom fighters and protectors of their fellow religious faith.

Protestants need to get out and vote more.

Anyone who sees them like that needs a good hard box into the nose so they can see them for what they are - sectarian murdering nut-jobs.

Cavehill Red

Manassas61 wrote: »

The Conservative Catholic vote is something the DUP should be aiming for.

Thanks. I haven't had a belly laugh like that in absolutely ages.

SoulandForm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Thanks. I haven't had a belly laugh like that in absolutely ages.

Actually its not that crazy- http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/roundup/articles/2013/04/18/400601-priest-catholics-support-the-dup/ .

However in order to actually do it the DUP would have to drop their opposition to Catholic education and seriously distance themselves from physical force Loyalism. Im not sure though the DUP has the awareness of both self and others to pull it off. On the UK mainland the closest thing to the DUP would probably be the people around Philip Blond who are either Roman Catholic or very Roman Catholic influenced rather than the Christian Party who are Thatcherite on economics (and probably even madder than the DUP). Of course though I doubt strongly that the DUP cares much about actual British politics- they probably care less about them than many in PSF and the SDLP.

Cavehill Red

Trust me. Not only is it that crazy, it's way crazier again.

getzls

tdv123 wrote: »

Well your thinking wrong because no Protestants or Unionists were oppressed in Southern Ireland when the Free State was established.

It's not my thinking, i'm guessing at there's.

Oh don't tell fibs now, what about boycott of Protestant shops for one?

Of course dissent was murdered a far bit before the state was established.

Theanswers

getzls wrote: »

It's not my thinking, i'm guessing at there's.

Oh don't tell fibs now, what about boycott of Protestant shops for one?

Of course dissent was murdered a far bit before the state was established.

Protestant's in the Republic are NOT discriminated against.

People living in the North I believe often fail to see this. There is no them vs us in the south. There is no rift. Often the local Parish Priest/ Clergymen share services depending on the event.

People are members of the one community.
I've yet to hear of one protestant from the south supporting the OO or any similar organisation. They have nothing in common nor do they want anything to do with it. Majority in fact are embarrassed that their religion is even associated with those organisations.

Manassas61

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Thanks. I haven't had a belly laugh like that in absolutely ages.

Laugh away. To try and ignore the Conservative Catholic people is rather laughable and is something which the DUP could easily tap into if they wanted to. The DUP has more in common with them than Sinn Fein do.

junder

Manassas61 wrote: »

Laugh away. To try and ignore the Conservative Catholic people is rather laughable and is something which the DUP could easily tap into if they wanted to. The DUP has more in common with them than Sinn Fein do.

Having been on many a political conference I always found fina geal and foil always got on very well with the DUP birds of a feather and all that

Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

Having been on many a political conference I always found fina geal and foil always got on very well with the DUP birds of a feather and all that

Fina geal and foil?? Never heard of them but if theyre anything like the DUP no wonder they're so unpopular I've never heard of them.

Tramps Like Us

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Fina geal and foil?? Never heard of them but if theyre anything like the DUP no wonder they're so unpopular I've never heard of them.

You have to wonder when someone can't even make a reasonable half arsed attempt at spelling the names of political parties - Maybe the Irish language sticks in his throat?

junder

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

You have to wonder when someone can't even make a reasonable half arsed attempt at spelling the names of political parties - Maybe the Irish language sticks in his throat?

Wow you finally nailed me, my bad spelling is down to me being sectarian, even have my spell check set to sectarian.

Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

Wow you finally nailed me, my bad spelling is down to me being sectarian, even have my spell check set to sectarian.

At least we know it wasnt you did the writing on the UVF mural

getzls

Theanswers wrote: »

Protestant's in the Republic are NOT discriminated against anymore.
.

That is correct.

Theanswers

getzls wrote: »

That is correct.

Maybe in the very early days of the state. I'm talking about the 1920s. However in latter years in the majority of people lifetimes 40-50 years, they have not. In-fact the state often goes out of it's way to make protestant feel very welcome. There as much 'irish' as anybody else here and no-one need question their cultural identity.

Any Protestant shops which were boycotted generally were for good reason - "No Catholic need apply" posters spring to mind.

All in All, the north could learn a thing or too from the South.

Fratton Fred

Theanswers wrote: »

Maybe in the very early days of the state. I'm talking about the 1920s. However in latter years in the majority of people lifetimes 40-50 years, they have not. In-fact the state often goes out of it's way to make protestant feel very welcome. There as much 'irish' as anybody else here and no-one need question their cultural identity

It does? In what way?

SoulandForm

Theanswers wrote: »

Maybe in the very early days of the state. I'm talking about the 1920s. However in latter years in the majority of people lifetimes 40-50 years, they have not. In-fact the state often goes out of it's way to make protestant feel very welcome. There as much 'irish' as anybody else here and no-one need question their cultural identity.

Any Protestant shops which were boycotted generally were for good reason - "No Catholic need apply" posters spring to mind.

All in All, the north could learn a thing or too from the South.

I believe he is referring to the Fetard on Sea nastiness in the 1950s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethard-on-Sea_boycott

Theanswers

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does? In what way?

A-lot of the European Peace Funding goes to Protestant Churches in the Border areas.

Ireland is a welcoming place. Ireland does as much for the Protestant churches as it does for any other church.

There may be more emphasis placed on Catholic Churches but that only is because the majority of the country is Catholic. No other reason.

Theanswers

SoulandForm wrote: »

I believe he is referring to the Fetard on Sea nastiness in the 1950s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethard-on-Sea_boycott

No, I'm referring to certain stores run by protestants whom would years ago when looking for someone to hire state that Catholics need not apply. I'm sure this may have happened the other way around too.

Regardless - this now does not happen.

Fratton Fred

Theanswers wrote: »

A-lot of the European Peace Funding goes to Protestant Churches in the Border areas.

Ireland is a welcoming place. Ireland does as much for the Protestant churches as it does for any other church.

There may be more emphasis placed on Catholic Churches but that only is because the majority of the country is Catholic. No other reason.

Forgive me for me being cynical, but I'd hardly call that going out of its way when all it is doing is treating its citizens the same.

What it should be doing is breaking the grasp the church has on 97% of the schools in this country, but that's a different topic.

Tramps Like Us

A large part of my family is protestant, there is no discrimination against them in the south, anyone claiming otherwise is a fool or a liar.

There are problems with racism, prejudice against Muslims and discrimination against travelers though