HAS THE TIME COME TO SPLIT DUBLIN GAA??

prospect

Dots1982 wrote: »

Maybe because representation is lower. I would say there are more native hurlers in kilkenny than Dublin

If it is based on population, as you suggest, it is proportional, so that is moot.

Oasis_Dublin

Dots1982 wrote: »

Yeah, ok. Its an opinion based on a fact I suppose.

So it's an opinion then. It only took two pages of nonsense to get there I suppose!

Oasis_Dublin

keeponhurling wrote: »

North v South "derby" games would certainly generate huge interest.

I would never support a Dublin South team versus a Dublin North team.

Dots1982

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

So it's an opinion then. It only took two pages of nonsense to get there I suppose!

Because you failed to follow my argument and said things like I thought rural footballers were better than Cian O'sullivan and BB that I had to refute

Oasis_Dublin

Dots1982 wrote: »

Because you failed to follow my argument and said things like I thought rural footballers were better than Cian O'sullivan and BB that I had to refute

Do you want me to quote you for the third time here?! It's fine to back track a little.

Dots1982

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Do you want me to quote you for the third time here?! It's fine to back track a little.

Sure go ahead, the last time you done it proved my consistency.

Oasis_Dublin

Dots1982 wrote: »

Sure go ahead, the last time you done it proved my consistency.

What county are you from anyway?

listermint

keeponhurling wrote: »

Dublin has far more traffic than any other county, and it can take ages to get across the city.
Maybe splitting club championships into South Dublin and North Dublin would make things easier. Or even just split it in the earlier rounds.

I don't think the OP is having an anti-Dublin rant, there is merit in the idea. A new strong team in hurling would be good for the sport.
North v South "derby" games would certainly generate huge interest. There is certainly enough strength in depth in Dublin to support two strong teams in both codes at all levels.

However any decision should be left to the Dublin County Board.

i left off right about your first sentence....

PRAF

Dots1982 wrote: »

Nah.. your proposal means less people get to play county football apart from the impracticalies of where would they train.

There is always a trade off. However, lets consider south leinster and counties like Wexford and Carlow. The reality is that they have no chance of winning Leinster, let alone an All Ireland. They may have 60+ players in their senior football squads but unfortunately a good number of them just aren't good enough to really compete at the business end of championship football. Combining them might give the best 30 players from that area a chance to compete for an All Ireland medal.

Is travelling from Wexford to Carlow any more difficult from travelling from say north Mayo to Castlebar?

Dots1982

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

What county are you from anyway?

Didn't we discuss something about making the debate personal rather than about the issue in hand.

If I say where I'm from you will probably start up on that and I don't need the topic going off on another pointless tangent.

By the way just to be clear

: HAS THE TIME COME TO SPLIT DUBLIN GAA??

NO

Dots1982

PRAF wrote: »

There is always a trade off. However, lets consider south leinster and counties like Wexford and Carlow. The reality is that they have no chance of winning Leinster, let alone an All Ireland. They may have 60+ players in their senior football squads but unfortunately a good number of them just aren't good enough to really compete at the business end of championship football. Combining them might give the best 30 players from that area a chance to compete for an All Ireland medal.

Is travelling from Wexford to Carlow any more difficult from travelling from say north Mayo to Castlebar?

I just think that's a pretty big leap for the GAA to make.

I would prefer grading the allireland to three competitions.

P_1

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I suppose the key difference is that in all those examples (bar Leinster rugby I suppose) is that another team from the same area is still able come along and split the local support base, so for example we end up with 20 clubs in London with a core 3/4 of them at the top table, a few yoyos and some always in the lower leagues.
Also other teams outside those large catchment areas can grow their finances differently and 'buy in' the London players.

Whereas it's hard to see what if anything Leitrim can do to close the gap on Dublin under the GAA structures.

I suppose an interesting question for another thread (this one being a train wreck) is if you were starting GAA from scratch now and wanted 32 participants would it be considered sensible to use the county system.

Fair point, the only other 'fair' model that comes to mind is the American system but I don't think a high enough percentage of the playing base go to college so that rules the 'draft' system out straight off the bat.

Oasis_Dublin

Dots1982 wrote: »

Didn't we discuss something about making the debate personal rather than about the issue in hand.

If I say where I'm from you will probably start up on that and I don't need the topic going off on another pointless tangent.

By the way just to be clear

: HAS THE TIME COME TO SPLIT DUBLIN GAA??

NO

We discussed personal insults from you. I'm not criticising you. I'm wondering what county you are from? Surely it can't be that bad that you are ashamed to admit which county it is?

Dots1982

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

We discussed personal insults from you. I'm not criticising you. I'm wondering what county you are from? Surely it can't be that bad that you are ashamed to admit which county it is?

Why do you wish to know?

PRAF

Dots1982 wrote: »

I just think that's a pretty big leap for the GAA to make.

I would prefer grading the allireland to three competitions.

But what about the star players from these areas who are good enough to contest for All Ireland's but who just happen to be from a weaker county. Is it just tough titty for them? F*** off with ye and play in Div 3 and be happy with that.

Oasis_Dublin

Dots1982 wrote: »

Why do you wish to know?

I'm curious. I'll go first. I'm from Dublin. Where are you from?

PRAF

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

We discussed personal insults from you. I'm not criticising you. I'm wondering what county you are from? Surely it can't be that bad that you are ashamed to admit which county it is?

Must be a Meath man. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Multiple Leinsters and All Irelands, the Hill of Tara, Newgrange, Pierce Brosnan, Hector, Tayto Park, Sean Boylan......and the toughest b***ard to ever play GAA (Mick Lyons!)

Dots1982

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

We discussed personal insults from you.

BTW, I've been called biased, bitter and jealous and I have no idea what personal insults I have said to posters.

Oasis_Dublin

A bit harsh on Wexford if anything. They have done some great work in terms of making their football team competitive over the last 15 years and they certainly should have beaten Dublin in one of the Leinster finals they appeared in.

Oasis_Dublin

PRAF wrote: »

Must be a Meath man. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Multiple Leinsters and All Irelands, the Hill of Tara, Newgrange, Pierce Brosnan, Hector, Tayto Park, Sean Boylan......and the toughest b***ard to ever play GAA (Mick Lyons!)

Don't forget that Bernard Brogan stole the "pointing all over the place after you score a goal" from Ollie Murphy!

Dots1982

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I'm curious. I'll go first. I'm from Dublin. Where are you from?

To be honest I'm not going to tell you.

I believe you will just say something along the lines of well of course he hates Dubs then no matter where I said.

Oasis_Dublin

Dots1982 wrote: »

To be honest I'm not going to tell you.

I believe you will just say something along the lines of well of course he hates Dubs then no matter where I said.

Fairly disingenuous of you altogether. It must be Kerry/Kidare/Meath/Offaly because if you said 'Cavan' I'd respond, 'there is no traditional football rivalry there.'

Dots1982

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Fairly disingenuous of you altogether. It must be Kerry/Kidare/Meath/Offaly because if you said 'Cavan' I'd respond, 'there is no traditional football rivalry there.'

Ah just the way you have debated on this I've found you and Listermint constantly trying to get in unfunny sarcasm and digs while showing no interest in real debate. And yes that is personally insulting, but fairly mild compared to what i've been called.

PRAF

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

A bit harsh on Wexford if anything. They have done some great work in terms of making their football team competitive over the last 15 years and they certainly should have beaten Dublin in one of the Leinster finals they appeared in.

I just think its a shame that guys like Matty Forde, Declan Browne, Dessie Dolan, etc never has a fair chance at All Ireland glory. It must also be demorilising for kids playing in those counties. The net result is you end up losing these players to other sports and the same old trend continues.

Listen, there is no perfect system and we all know that radically changing it would be nigh on impossible in an organisation as conservative as the GAA. However, IMO it would be the right thing to do

prospect

Dots1982 wrote: »

To be honest I'm not going to tell you.

I'll tell him so, He's from Kildare:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67735624&postcount=229

Ace2007

This thread turned into some car crash, on phone so can't quote but the arguments about population are lol bad, especially when a poster says that hurling wouldn't be split.

If population is a reason then it should apply to all codes of GAA and not just football. So that reason doesn't work.

The argument about Leitrim having no chance of winning cause of their size- u could say the same about half the counties in Ireland about hurling - do you want the football to go the way of the hurling - smaller competitions for the not so good counties?

Dots1982

prospect wrote: »

I'll tell him so, He's from Kildare:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67735624&postcount=229

So prove me wrong...this won't be used as a stick to beat me with

Dyr

Dots1982 wrote: »

So prove me wrong...this won't be used as a stick to beat me with

nah your posts are more than enough stick for that

Oasis_Dublin

Dots1982 wrote: »

So prove me wrong...this won't be used as a stick to beat me with

Wait, you're from Kildare, no wonder...

JOKE! You just seem very determined to continue the discussion, even though it's long since become very childish (obviously including myself in that).

Having said that though, I would say that the entire premise of the discussion is nonsense and that the first post is where the nonsense started. Splitting up Dublin and thinking that Dubs will just start supporting a new team with no history; are you (second person plural) actually mad?!

Would Kerry vs Dublin South have the same ring to it? Will TG4 be making documentaries about the great rivalry between North Dublin and Meath in thirty years time? Let's get real for a second here!

prospect

Dots1982 wrote: »

So prove me wrong...this won't be used as a stick to beat me with

I live in Kildare, its a great place.

Should be much more competitive as a Football county, and hopefully will be in the not too distant future.

Dots1982

Bambi wrote: »

nah your posts are more than enough stick for that

Ha, I don't agree but I appreciate the sentiment.

Dyr

prospect wrote: »

I live in Kildare, its a great place.

Should be much more competitive as a Football county, and hopefully will be in the not too distant future.

dublins being shipping a goodly amount of our people out there to try balance leinster out anyway

Dots1982

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Wait, you're from Kildare, no wonder...

JOKE! You just seem very determined to continue the discussion, even though it's long since become very childish (obviously including myself in that).

Having said that though, I would say that the entire premise of the discussion is nonsense and that the first post is where the nonsense started. Splitting up Dublin and thinking that Dubs will just start supporting a new team with no history; are you (second person plural) actually mad?!

Would Kerry vs Dublin South have the same ring to it? Will TG4 be making documentaries about the great rivalry between North Dublin and Meath in thirty years time? Let's get real for a second here!

Things change, I'm not saying they will or they should but saying things should always be the way they were is not really how it goes.

Oasis_Dublin

Dots1982 wrote: »

Things change, I'm not saying they will or they should but saying things should always be the way they were is not really how it goes.

My counter point to that was that the Munster Championship has been won by one of two counties for seventy seven of the last seventy eight years.

As such, I deduced that it was somewhat bitter to start complaining about the Leinster Championship domination by one side just because it's Dublin. Where were these points when Meath dominated in the late 1980s?

If Johnny Doyle was to win a Leinster Championship by beating Dublin South or Dublin North, would it mean as much to him/Kildare fans as beating the Dubs in front of a packed Hill 16? I sincerely doubt it.

I was in Croke Park when a Glen Ryan-inspired Kildare turned Dublin on their heads from six points down in 2000. The absolute passion and delight in Kildare fans that day is an abiding memory of mine.

Why was it so sweet for Dublin to beat Kerry in 2011? Because Kerry had had the beating of us for nearly thirty years previously. Would a Dublin South victory over Kerry give me the same joy? Absolutely not

Citroen2cv

Bambi wrote: »

dublins being shipping a goodly amount of our people out there to try balance leinster out anyway

That balances out the staedy stream of culchie boyos moving to the capital for work, then playing their club football there too.

Dots1982

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

My counter point to that was that the Munster Championship has been won by one of two counties for seventy seven of the last seventy eight years.

As such, I deduced that it was somewhat bitter to start complaining about the Leinster Championship domination by one side just because it's Dublin. Where were these points when Meath dominated in the late 1980s?

If Johnny Doyle was to win a Leinster Championship by beating Dublin South or Dublin North, would it mean as much to him/Kildare fans as beating the Dubs in front of a packed Hill 16? I sincerely doubt it.

I was in Croke Park when a Glen Ryan-inspired Kildare turned Dublin on their heads from six points down in 2000. The absolute passion and delight in Kildare fans that day is an abiding memory of mine.

Why was it so sweet for Dublin to beat Kerry in 2011? Because Kerry had had the beating of us for nearly thirty years previously. Would a Dublin South victory over Kerry give me the same joy? Absolutely not

Yeah true, but your attitude to Kildare is a little patronising (understandbly so since our achievements are nothing to Dublins) We should probably wrap this up. I hope I've convinced you all that my opinion is not borne from being anti Dublin but rather the need for the GAA to afford each player and team as fair a shot at glory as possible.

Oasis_Dublin

Dots1982 wrote: »

Yeah true, but your attitude to Kildare is a little patronising (understandbly so since our achievements are nothing to Dublins) We should probably wrap this up. I hope I've convinced you all that my opinion is not borne from being anti Dublin but rather the need for the GAA to afford each player and team as fair a shot at glory as possible.

Patronising towards Kildare?! Well sure look, there's only hair on my shoulders.

Stabshauptmann

anbrutog wrote: »

As a Dublin fan, I would LOVE to go down the country for a Leinster championship match.

And I don't know a single Dubs fan who wouldn't either.

I remember when we had the Dubs in town for a match - worse than a traveller's wedding; keep em in Croke Park :pac:

Godge

DazMarz wrote: »

The simple fact of the matter is that it will not be known if Dublin will become dominant, truly dominant a la Kerry or Tyrone, within the next few years. 2 All Irelands in 3 years does not a dominant team make. Dublin have only won 4 All Irelands in 30 years too. Never forget that. Barren spells numbering 12 years ('83 to '95) and 16 years ('95 to '11) cannot be ignored.

Yes, this is a very good with potential to become great Dublin team. But Dublin could easily be undone next year by any of the other big sides (Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Cork, Donegal) as happened in 2012. I find it hard to look past Dublin at the moment, but at the same time, I was saying the same thing in the aftermath of the 2011 victory. It is so hard to win back-to-back All Ireland Football titles nowadays. Last team to do it was Kerry back in 2006-07. Since then, Tyrone, Kerry again, Cork, Dublin, Donegal and Dublin again have all won it.

Yes, Dublin has a huge population to work with, over 1.5 million people living in the county. But not all of those 1.5 million play or are even the slightest bit interested in GAA. In Dublin, there are lots of other sports to contend with, most notably rugby and soccer.

Yes, GAA is huge in Dublin at the moment with success breeding success in both football and hurling.

But if people are wanting to see Dublin GAA split into more than one team, does this include not just the Senior Footballers (which seems to be the primary one people want to see split) or does it include every Dublin GAA team: hurlers, ladies football, camogie, U-21, minor, etc.

Obviously, I would strongly disagree with any kind of a split in ANY county, but this argument has only recently been flung at Dublin. It seems to be a case of overreaction following some success after such a long barren spell. Dublin's footballers and hurlers did not have some sudden magic spell that was waved over them in the last couple of years to get where they are now. This was achieved through incredible, Herculean amounts of hard work, training, sacrifice and increased amounts of self-belief.

No team should be punished for working hard. No team should be split because they are too good. Yes, Dublin hold several advantages in several areas over other counties but that is not their fault. And never must it be forgotten, that a lot of Dublin's success is not due to the luck of having a huge population or anything. It is through blood, sweat, toil and tears; through 6am training sessions before work/college; training after work/college; training in freezing winter conditions on the frozen sands of the coasts; the players sacrificing so much, giving up time with their friends, family and other loved ones; the managers and the backroom staff toiling and working to make the tactics work.

Had to go back about six pages before I found a post with any worth in it.

Dividing Dublin would be self-defeating for the GAA for a number of reasons.

(1) Loss of county identity:

If you split a county and lose part of its identity, why wouldn't you combine other counties? As a first example, why wouldn't you see a combined Ulster take part in the hurling championship or a combined rest of Connaught? Similarly in football, why not combine weaker counties. Imagine a four-team Munster football championship with Clare-Limerick and Tipperary-Waterford taking on the two big boys in Cork and Kerry?

The GAA is based on playing for your local parish and your local county. You change this and you change the basis of its existence. The whole Seanie Johnston controversy was caught up in this issue. If you think poaching is an issue now, can you imaging the trading that would go on between Dublin North and Dublin South or East/West (which would it be??) as no player would have any traditional loyalty to either one?

If you lose the traditional club and county identity (and in Dublin, the latter often means more) what is left of the core strengths of the GAA?

(2) Investment in Dublin and growth of GAA in Dublin

The GAA has faced up to the necessary reality of investing resources in Dublin or begin the process of dying out. In Dublin there is huge competition at under-age level with other sports. The GAA revival in Dublin has been down to the hard work of thousands of dedicated individuals but it would not have been as successful without the strong brand identity of Dublin football. Why would the GAA want to throw away one of the ingredients of its success in Dublin?

(3) What about hurling?

It is not as successful as football but the success of the Dublin hurling team this year has increased the popularity of the sport in the capital. Why throw that advantage away now?


To answer the OP, the time to split Dublin GAA is not now, and may never be. However, if you have a decade of success at all levels and across all the sports, the time may well come that Dublin has taken over and the game may be strong enough in the capital to survive a split but even though 31 counties are forever against Dublin, that time is not now.

The_Honeybadger

Can't believe this has gone to 21 pages, mad idea and will never happen. It would totally devalue the championship. Dubs look like they are entering a purple patch, that's no reason to do anything as drastic as this. Other teams have dominated in the past and great teams come and go. People may be getting carried away with how much they expect Dublin to dominate into the future too, it's by no means a certainty, they have an awesome squad at the moment and should win at least a few more AI's but don't be surprised to see a new team emerge a la donegal, mayo are far from finished and Tyrone / Kerry / Cork will all be looking to regroup and find new young players No team will ever have it all their own way all the time.

Slattsy

Here lads, have another scoop






*Not directed at every one, but you know who you are

bruschi

I'm contributing the 244th post to this thread, and havent read one post. I hope the majority are saying this is utterly, utterly ridiculous.

superbluedub

Dots1982 wrote: »

Yeah true, but your attitude to Kildare is a little patronising (understandbly so since our achievements are nothing to Dublins) We should probably wrap this up. I hope I've convinced you all that my opinion is not borne from being anti Dublin but rather the need for the GAA to afford each player and team as fair a shot at glory as possible.

im sorry to say,having read through your posts,im convinced you are bigtime anti Dublin.:mad:

Flukey

One county (and don't give us any of that 3 county councils rubbish), one team. If the population of Dublin was 1 billion, never mind 1 million, we can still only have 15 players on the field at one time, the same as all other counties. Having a larger population does not mean that the best players are going to be of a higher quality. Even the smallest populations would have a pool enough to put 15 good players on the pitch and have a good panel behind them. If having a larger population was an advantage Dublin would have a lot more Football All-Irelands and wouldn't have to look back to 1938 for our last Hurling All-Ireland. The population factor would also mean counties like Kilkenny and Kerry would have far fewer All-Irelands and there would be a wider spread amongst other counties. There are never calls to split Kilkenny and Kerry. I see no threads for a Tipperary north and Tipperary south teams, and rightly so.

Populations don't win sports events. If it did, China would be world champions at everything. It is down to quality not quantity. So like I said, one county, one team. That should go for all 32 counties. Then, may the best team win. It happened to be Dublin this year. If we go on to win 10 in a row, there would still be zero case for splitting the county. Just like has happened in Hurling recently with other counties working to find teams and systems to beat Kilkenny, the same has to be done in football, whoever are the All-Ireland champions.

PRAF

Flukey wrote: »

One county (and don't give us any of that 3 county councils rubbish), one team. If the population of Dublin was 1 billion, never mind 1 million, we can still only have 15 players on the field at one time, the same as all other counties. Having a larger population does not mean that the best players are going to be of a higher quality. Even the smallest populations would have a pool enough to put 15 good players on the pitch and have a good panel behind them. If having a larger population was an advantage Dublin would have a lot more Football All-Irelands and wouldn't have to look back to 1938 for our last Hurling All-Ireland. The population factor would also mean counties like Kilkenny and Kerry would have far fewer All-Irelands and there would be a wider spread amongst other counties. There are never calls to split Kilkenny and Kerry. I see no threads for a Tipperary north and Tipperary south teams, and rightly so.

Populations don't win sports events. If it did, China would be world champions at everything. It is down to quality not quantity. So like I said, one county, one team. That should go for all 32 counties. Then, may the best team win. It happened to be Dublin this year. If we go on to win 10 in a row, there would still be zero case for splitting the county. Just like has happened in Hurling recently with other counties working to find teams and systems to beat Kilkenny, the same has to be done in football, whoever are the All-Ireland champions.

Agree with a lot of what you said. Population on its own is not the deciding factor. I think it's a little more important that you are giving it credit for. However, it's also about tradition, coaching, club structures, and many others things.

Out of interest if you (or any other poster) were in charge of the All Ireland Champtionship and could make any changes you liked, would you do anything different?

For me, I do think it's unrealistic to expect the likes of Carlow, Wicklow, and Wexford to compete with the likes of Dublin in Leinster. As for their chances of beating Dublin and then going on to beat the likes of Tyrone, Kerry or Mayo for an All Ireland. Zero chance. For that reason, I would look to make a few changes. However, splitting up Dublin is probably the last thing I would consider.

PRAF

Godge wrote: »

If you split a county and lose part of its identity, why wouldn't you combine other counties?

I am also against artificially splitting up counties to make them weaker. However, I think some combining of weaker counties to make them stronger could be a good thing. It would need to be very carefully managed and couldn't be forced on people. I can't see it happening anytime soon but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be considered at some future point

Godge wrote: »

Imagine a four-team Munster football championship with Clare-Limerick and Tipperary-Waterford taking on the two big boys in Cork and Kerry?

The Munster Football Championship is ridiculously lopsided. They may as well call it the Cork vs Kerry Championship. The changes you suggest sound reasonable. However, it would of course mean you only get two semi-finals and a final. Hardly a 'championship'. Combining counties only makes sense if you either change or get rid of the provincial championships. That's another argument altogether!

Godge wrote: »

The GAA is based on playing for your local parish and your local county. You change this and you change the basis of its existence.
.......

If you lose the traditional club and county identity (and in Dublin, the latter often means more) what is left of the core strengths of the GAA?

I think for almost all GAA players loyalty to the local club is hugely important. Playing on the same team as your friends and family, in your own community, is pretty much the core strength of the GAA.

However, I wonder would people like Matty Forde, Dessie Dolan, etc have been equally happy to play for a combined county team if it meant they could've won an All Ireland medal? Guys like Larry Tompkins, Billy Joe Padden, Brian Lacey, Declan Darcy, MJ Ryan and lots of others had no problem playing for different counties from where they were born / grew up. I'm not sure county loyalty is as strong as club loyalty

Flukey

Whatever way the system is changed, only one team can take away the All-Ireland title. For each team to win, would take 32 years, a time probably more than the age of many contributors here. No player will have a career long enough to ensure that he gets his All-Ireland, so naturally there are great players that don't win, even from strong counties. Ciarán Whelan being a modern example.

A weaker county will never win the All-Ireland title, no matter what you do. A strong county always will. However, a team that was a weaker county can win the All-Ireland title. They may be a weaker county now, but in a few years time, having become stronger, they could be walking up the steps of the Hogan Stand. That is something you can change and make happen, and indeed it has happened. Donegal were a laughing stock, just 3 years ago. Prior to this year Dublin had not won Leinster since 1961 and for the vast majority of that time, never posed a threat of doing so. Lots of counties that were weaker counties have improved and won titles. They may not stay around long, but they do make those breakthroughs. So it is not unrealistic to expect the likes of Carlow, Wicklow, and Wexford to compete with the likes of Dublin. Of course they can. Westmeath is missing from that list. You can be sure it would have been there 10 years ago, but then they won Leinster. If you'd suggested that would happen a few years before it did, you'd have been surrounded by men in white coats, had a strait jacket put on you before you could say "Sam Maguire", and found yourself in a padded cell, with people terrified of coming near the room that the crazy person was in.

One of the ironies of this whole thread is that while in Munster there is an issue about their being two teams monopolising the province, we have people advocating creating another strong team to beat in Leinster. One of the weaker Leinster teams have a better chance of beating Dublin, than they do of beating Dublin North and then beating Dublin South. If anything, it is the stronger counties that should merge, which would reduce the amount of strong teams for weaker counties to beat. In Munster they complain that the four weaker counties have little chance of pulling off two big victories even if they were to upset the odds and beat one of the big guns. If Cork and Kerry merged, then the other four would have only one big team to beat. If weaker counties merged, that would reduce the amount of teams that stronger teams have to beat, so making it easier for them to win their provincial title. One victory for a big county and you could have 3 weaker counties out in one go. So merging is counter-productive. Leave the 32 counties exactly as they are. Leave the provinces as they are, but have no seeding in any of them. Each province should have a full open draw. Then get the players out on the training field and that is where they will do the work to make themselves contenders. Changing boundaries or splitting teams or merging teams won't do it. It is on the field of play and nowhere else.

Quixoticelixer

This comes up every now and then for all the wrong reasons. If there was talk of splitting Dublin for administrative purposes due to the size of the county in population terms, fair enough; a debate worth having.

But, this has only come up in recent years because they have been having a few good years at underage, and have won two football titles in three years. A county should not be split in response to them becoming successful, other counties need to rise to the challenge.

There were suggestions a couple of years back about splitting Kilkenny in response to their domination in hurling! Nothing serious mind you, mainly internet talk, there was a thread here and on a few other sites. It's nonsense.

PRAF

Flukey wrote: »

Whatever way the system is changed, only one team can take away the All-Ireland title. For each team to win, would take 32 years, a time probably more than the age of many contributors here. No player will have a career long enough to ensure that he gets his All-Ireland, so naturally there are great players that don't win, even from strong counties. Ciarán Whelan being a modern example.

A weaker county will never win the All-Ireland title, no matter what you do. A strong county always will. However, a team that was a weaker county can win the All-Ireland title. They may be a weaker county now, but in a few years time, having become stronger, they could be walking up the steps of the Hogan Stand. That is something you can change and make happen, and indeed it has happened. Donegal were a laughing stock, just 3 years ago. Prior to this year Dublin had not won Leinster since 1961 and for the vast majority of that time, never posed a threat of doing so. Lots of counties that were weaker counties have improved and won titles. They may not stay around long, but they do make those breakthroughs. So it is not unrealistic to expect the likes of Carlow, Wicklow, and Wexford to compete with the likes of Dublin. Of course they can. Westmeath is missing from that list. You can be sure it would have been there 10 years ago, but then they won Leinster. If you'd suggested that would happen a few years before it did, you'd have been surrounded by men in white coats, had a strait jacket put on you before you could say "Sam Maguire", and found yourself in a padded cell, with people terrified of coming near the room that the crazy person was in.

One of the ironies of this whole thread is that while in Munster there is an issue about their being two teams monopolising the province, we have people advocating creating another strong team to beat in Leinster. One of the weaker Leinster teams have a better chance of beating Dublin, than they do of beating Dublin North and then beating Dublin South. If anything, it is the stronger counties that should merge, which would reduce the amount of strong teams for weaker counties to beat. In Munster they complain that the four weaker counties have little chance of pulling off two big victories even if they were to upset the odds and beat one of the big guns. If Cork and Kerry merged, then the other four would have only one big team to beat. If weaker counties merged, that would reduce the amount of teams that stronger teams have to beat, so making it easier for them to win their provincial title. One victory for a big county and you could have 3 weaker counties out in one go. So merging is counter-productive. Leave the 32 counties exactly as they are. Leave the provinces as they are, but have no seeding in any of them. Each province should have a full open draw. Then get the players out on the training field and that is where they will do the work to make themselves contenders. Changing boundaries or splitting teams or merging teams won't do it. It is on the field of play and nowhere else.

Don't necessarily agree with this but I do respect the views your putting across. There is something rare and brilliant when you see a team come from nowhere, gradually pick themselves up, and then start competing for titles. The romance of the cup and all of that....

However, the numbers tell us a different story. Somthing like 77 out of the last 78 Munsters won by either Cork or Kerry. Dublin could well go on to win something like 10 Leinsters in a row. No hurling championships in Connaught or Ulster. The provincial championship structures need to be looked at IMO

Flukey

PRAF wrote: »

Don't necessarily agree with this but I do respect the views your putting across. There is something rare and brilliant when you see a team come from nowhere, gradually pick themselves up, and then start competing for titles. The romance of the cup and all of that....

However, the numbers tell us a different story. Somthing like 77 out of the last 78 Munsters won by either Cork or Kerry. Dublin could well go on to win something like 10 Leinsters in a row. No hurling championships in Connaught or Ulster. The provincial championship structures need to be looked at IMO

There is indeed something special about teams coming from nowhere. 1974 was a great example of that, yes, when Dublin won the All-Ireland. That is exactly what they did, came from nowhere. traditionally weak or strong teams can do it. Tipperary in 1987 was another example of a strong county returning to success, winning their Munster title since 1971.

The provincial championships do indeed need to be changed. As I have said many times here, in Hurling the first thing to do is to move Galway and Antrim out of Leinster. Galway is not the problem, the other four Connacht counties are and nothing has been done for them since Galway were put into the Leinster Championship. At least there is an Ulster championship. Surely there should have been a Connacht championship less Galway, put in place when Galway were moved, but that didn't happen. Moving Galway solved none of Hurling's ills. Galway always go in as one of the favourites for the All-Ireland, yet they and not Roscommon, Sligo, Mayo or Leitrim were deemed to need help. Work should be done in those counties to bring them up. Galway don't need help. If anything, they should up there in the "split them" candidates from some people's perspective, though I don't think any county should be split.

The Liam McCarthy should not be restricted as it is now. Counties should be allowed to decide themselves if they want to participate in it or in one of the other competitions. For example, the winners of the Christy Ring Cup should have a choice of either defending their title or moving into the McCarthy Cup. If they thought they'd benefit by defending their title more than playing the bigger teams, then that should be their choice. Equally, the defeated finalists might want a go at the bigger teams. The counties could all nominate what they want to play in and then have the draw in the spring. It is crazy having it just weeks after the All-Irelands finish. Qualifiers can be drawn a week or two before the games, so there is no reason why the initial championship draw couldn't be done any time from late March until early May. In Hurling, counties could be assessing their form in the league and in the other early season competitions and decide what they want to compete in. The football championship is fine, though Kilkenny should be made to compete and both New York and London should be allowed into the qualifiers. Each province should have a full and balance open draw, while still maintaining the rotational system in Connacht for playing New York and London.