Season 5, Episode 16: Felina

rubadub

Big Game wrote: »

I'd wager that the likes of mythbusters would find it easier to set up a similar contraption to the automatic machine gun than a stable home made wheelchair bomb.

I would think the wheelchair is easier. In mythbusters you see them with that plastic/putty type explosives a lot, they do seem stable enough, and set off electrically. I like the realism when he was first making the bombs, the fact it took many flicks of the switch to get it to go off in his kitchen.

The first test machine gun rig he had in the desert was simple enough, but to mount it on a car etc is not a job for mythbusters, but for those gunsmith shows, the recoil forces would be huge on a gun going off just once, but to do repeated shooting...

It should have been more like the remake of the Jackal

where bruce willis goes to a professional underground engineer (Jack Black) to get his remote control gun made

. Or he should have adapted an existing device capable of such force.

Doesn't bother me much though, you just suspend belief.

ashdale5

I think Walt planned that the M60 was going to be part of a suicide mission. It would take out himself as well as the Nazi's. It was only when Jessie was brought to the clubhouse that the plan was altered.

Big Game

snausages wrote: »

I'm not really questioning its realism, that stuff has never bothered me. But I do think BB is a show that promised a lot more than what we finally got.

Just in the finale? Ozymandias was as good an episode of TV that you're ever likely to see, same with Dead Freight. There's others in Season 5 that were every bit as good as anything that came in previous seasons. While I agree that the ending was a big Hollywood, I can see why Gilligan chose to end it that way and as regardsl delivery, BB delivered superb television all the way through season 5 up to that point. I don't see what it promised and didn't deliver. Endings are always tough, look at the debate over the likes of Lost (I even enjoyed the arc in the final season up to the last episode but absolutely sh1te ending) and The Sopranos (brilliant, worked for me).

Wacker The Attacker

snausages wrote: »

I felt the finale was a good episode but as a closure point it felt shallow. The series started out as something grand and ambitious but ended up a revenge story. The cost of Walt's actions was touched upon but ultimately the Nazi arc did not bring the kind of resolution I had hoped for.

If it were up to me I'd have liked an ending where Walt was left to linger until death in his cabin, a real Michael Corleone ending. I'd have liked more episodes in New Hampshire in general.

If Walter had died in those circumstances wouldn't it have been satisfying the audiences appetite for vengeance rather than his own.

The opposite side of the same coin so to speak.

I believe that based upon the way the final season had gone, the writers ended it exactly as they had to.

Wacker The Attacker

Big Game wrote: »

Just in the finale? Ozymandias was as good an episode of TV that you're ever likely to see, same with Dead Freight. There's others in Season 5 that were every bit as good as anything that came in previous seasons. While I agree that the ending was a big Hollywood, I can see why Gilligan chose to end it that way and as regardsl delivery, BB delivered superb television all the way through season 5 up to that point. I don't see what it promised and didn't deliver. Endings are always tough, look at the debate over the likes of Lost (I even enjoyed the arc in the final season up to the last episode but absolutely sh1te ending) and The Sopranos (brilliant, worked for me).

We all knew that the machine gun was going to be used at some point. We just didn't know how.

If walter had walked in there with an M60 in his hand it would been infinitely more preposterous.

Big Game

rubadub wrote: »

I would think the wheelchair is easier. In mythbusters you see them with that plastic/putty type explosives a lot, they do seem stable enough, and set off electrically. I like the realism when he was first making the bombs, the fact it took many flicks of the switch to get it to go off in his kitchen.

The first test machine gun rig he had in the desert was simple enough, but to mount it on a car etc is not a job for mythbusters, but for those gunsmith shows, the recoil forces would be huge on a gun going off just once, but to do repeated shooting...

It should have been more like the remake of the Jackal

where bruce willis goes to a professional underground engineer (Jack Black) to get his remote control gun made

. Or he should have adapted an existing device capable of such force.

Doesn't bother me much though, you just suspend belief.

Yeah, I thought that with the recoil alright but given the set pieces with gadgets etc throughtout the show was happy to let it slide. I suppose we don't know how he had it mounted in the boot, he obviously held back some cash (left approx $9m with Gretchen and Elliot, paid Badger & SP) so could have paid someone to heavy duty weld it in off screen.

Think it was just the whole stirring the explosives in the pot on the cooker that looked a bit off to me! It took Hector numerous rings of the bell before it detonated as well in fairness.

Dempsey

rubadub wrote: »

I would think the wheelchair is easier. In mythbusters you see them with that plastic/putty type explosives a lot, they do seem stable enough, and set off electrically. I like the realism when he was first making the bombs, the fact it took many flicks of the switch to get it to go off in his kitchen.

The first test machine gun rig he had in the desert was simple enough, but to mount it on a car etc is not a job for mythbusters, but for those gunsmith shows, the recoil forces would be huge on a gun going off just once, but to do repeated shooting...

It should have been more like the remake of the Jackal

where bruce willis goes to a professional underground engineer (Jack Black) to get his remote control gun made

. Or he should have adapted an existing device capable of such force.

Doesn't bother me much though, you just suspend belief.

The weight of the gun itself absorbs most of the recoil. It is designed to be fired from a standing position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTm29B0HjJM

The type of machine gun used in the Jackal was a heavy machine gun, approximately twice the calibre of a M60. The 2 should not be confused, ever.

Polar101

snausages wrote: »

If it were up to me I'd have liked an ending where Walt was left to linger until death in his cabin, a real Michael Corleone ending. I'd have liked more episodes in New Hampshire in general.

That kind of ending might have worked well if Walt had gone hiding in New Hampshire, after taking out Uncle Jack's crew.

D-FENS

willmunny1990 wrote: »

As Walt said himself, he did what he did for himself, not his family, so I don't think dying in bed surrounded by his family would of been all to satisfying for him. The car washes were only businesses he needed to launder his money, deep down i don't think he thought much about his familys future.

As ****ed up as things got after he decided to go into the meth business I still think he would do it all again. Walt was a shell of a man before he started cooking, over qualified in a dead end job, people walked all over him and his son looked up to his uncle more than him. He only ever felt alive or worth anything when he was cooking.

He lied and tried to convince himself what he was doing was for his family but it wasn't, not at all. In the end I thought he was quite content, he put right some of the wrongs he caused and ended up dying in the place he loved the most which was the lab.

A man can be selfish and still love his family though. A married man may leave his wife say for another woman, but a lot would bring their kids with them given the choice. It's this grey area that they captured so well with Walt in so many ways. Same as loving Jesse as a son while at the same time manipulating him all through the series, then wanting him dead and finally having pity on him / making peace with him. And he clearly resented Hank for the way Walt jr. looked up to him, and had no problem pretending to be upset about Skyler to gain access to Hank's office and plant the bug, but yet he would have given everything up to save him.

I do believe he settled for Skyler after Gretchen, and never loved Skyler quite as much as he should have or let on, but his kids? Look at the way he says goodbye, it was as precious to him as any feeling cooking in a meth lab. He wanted it all, to be important, remembered, respected, AND the love of his family.

And I think if he could do it all again, wouldn't he have just never left Grey Matter?..

Big Game

D-FENS wrote: »

A man can be selfish and still love his family though. A married man may leave his wife say for another woman, but a lot would bring their kids with them given the choice. It's this grey area that they captured so well with Walt in so many ways. Same as loving Jesse as a son while at the same time manipulating him all through the series, then wanting him dead and finally having pity on him / making peace with him. And he clearly resented Hank for the way Walt jr. looked up to him, and had no problem pretending to be upset about Sklyer to gain access to Hank's office and plant the bug, but yet he would have given everything up to save him.

I do believe he settled for Skyler after Gretchen, and never loved Skyler quite as much as he should have or let onbut his kids? Look at the way he says goodbye, it was as precious to him as any feeling cooking in a meth lab. He wanted it all, to be important, remembeed, respected, AND the love of his family.

And I think he he could do it all again, wouldn't he have just never left Grey Matter?..

I agree that he settled for Skyler. Funny enough, the way he said goodbye to the lab equipment him and Jessie built, caressing the side of it with a smile as he collapsed and died was very similar to how he caressed Holly's face, he nearly loved that lab as much as his kids......

Spiderman1975

snausages wrote: »

I felt the finale was a good episode but as a closure point it felt shallow. The series started out as something grand and ambitious but ended up a revenge story. The cost of Walt's actions was touched upon but ultimately the Nazi arc did not bring the kind of resolution I had hoped for.

If it were up to me I'd have liked an ending where Walt was left to linger until death in his cabin, a real Michael Corleone ending. I'd have liked more episodes in New Hampshire in general.

You're confusing the fact that you would have liked a different ending to it being a poor ending.
More episodes in NH weren't an option so the next option was drop some of the other episodes. It's hard to see how that would have improved the series.

Torqay

ashdale5 wrote: »

I think Walt planned that the M60 was going to be part of a suicide mission. It would take out himself as well as the Nazi's. It was only when Jessie was brought to the clubhouse that the plan was altered.

No, saving Jesse was part of the "Walter White Atonement" mission all along, he had to beg Jack on his knees to bring Jesse into the room.

OhHiMark

Torqay wrote: »

No, saving Jesse was part of the "Walter White Atonement" mission all along, he had to beg Jack on his knees to bring Jesse into the room.

I think you've completely misinterpreted that scene. First of all, there was no begging. Second of all, he had to way of knowing that Jesse was a slave. There was anger in his voice and on his face when he realised Jesse was cooking the meth, but he changed his mind when he saw Jesse's condition.

Syferus

In a strange way Walt got almost everything he wanted. He may just have finally given his family his earnings, he got revenge on Elliot and Gretchen, he saved Jesse and will probably go down as an iconic criminal.

"Remember my name"

snausages

Spiderman1975 wrote: »

You're confusing the fact that you would have liked a different ending to it being a poor ending.

No, I'm not. Anyway Polar101's suggestion shows how more eps in New Hampshire might have worked.

Turtyturd

Am I the only one who felt they missed out on an extremely satisfying 'bitch' moment from Jesse when he tells Walt 'Do it yourself'?

Torqay

OhHiMark wrote: »

I think you've completely misinterpreted that scene. First of all, there was no begging. Second of all, he had to way of knowing that Jesse was a slave. There was anger in his voice and on his face when he realised Jesse was cooking the meth, but he changed his mind when he saw Jesse's condition.

Do you really think Walter White was stupid enough to assume Jack Welker would have made Pinkman a partner???

OhHiMark

Torqay wrote: »

Do you really think Walter White was stupid enough to assume Jack Welker would have made Pinkman a partner???

No but I don't think he thought that Jesse was as bad as he was.

trashcan

Torqay wrote: »

Do you really think Walter White was stupid enough to assume Jack Welker would have made Pinkman a partner???

Agree. I don't think he genuinely thought Jesse was a partner, though it may have still shocked him to see his condition. He was clearly saying it out of desperation, to try to goad Jack into proving him wrong.

Now that it's al over and I've had a few days to absorb it, I kind of have mixed feelings about the end. Given the way Season 5 went it was kind of the only way it could resolve (proven by how many people accurately predicted the casualty list, using Gretchen and Elliot to get the money to the kids etc.) It was satisfying to see Todd, Lydia and the Nazis get their comeuppance, though it did get a bit A Team with the machine gun. Two other things bothered me. One was the Nazis not killing Walt once they had his money. Why on earth would they not have just killed him ? Second was keeping Jesse as the slave to make the meth. Just because Todd fancied Lydia, really ? And did they even spend any of their 80 million, or whatever it was ? I didn't see so much as a new pickup truck.

Season 5 had some fantastic moments, the initial confrontation with Hank, Hank getting killed, the confession tape. However, I think the whole addition of Lydia and the Todd/The Nazis felt a bit grafted on. On reflection Gus was a much better villian and could have been kept around for the conclusion. In my view it could have worked better, and you could still have had the great elements from Season 5.

So overall, a very good series, almost flawless until the final season I would have said. A good distance behind the Wire though in my view, and that's the standard I judge exceptional TV drama by.

Mousewar

Torqay wrote: »

Do you really think Walter White was stupid enough to assume Jack Welker would have made Pinkman a partner???

I'm actually with Torqay on this. To say there was anger in Walt's face when he said 'Jessie' is too strong an interpretation. I just rewatched it. I could just as easily say it was regret or sadness. It's not explicitly anger.

And I just don't think he went there with much anger directed towards Jessie. I think that faded away in New Hampshire. His speel to Jack about Jessie was definitely an attempt to stall his execution rather than a genuine accusation. Whether he intended to have Jessie brought in so he could be killed or merely to locate and save him is open to debate but generally I just felt it was the latter.

snausages

trashcan wrote: »

Season 5 had some fantastic moments, the initial confrontation with Hank, Hank getting killed, the confession tape. However, I think the whole addition of Lydia and the Todd/The Nazis felt a bit grafted on. On reflection Gus was a much better villian and could have been kept around for the conclusion. In my view it could have worked better, and you could still have had the great elements from Season 5.

The blame for this lies with AMC imo. Had season 5 not been cut up and served across 14 months some of the events might have happened more naturally in the story. As it is season 5 kind of proceeded in fits and starts, with a lot of twists and cliffhangers in this half-season. I don't think they really needed another big bad after Gus. That was the series' climax. Season 5 would have worked better as a shortened epilogue season imo.

Nerdlingr

I see Gilligan has said they put the M60 in at the start of season 5 before they knew what they we're going to do with it...hmmm...pity...it kinda played out that way in the end. I wanted Walt to go out in some chemistry induced way, taking the nazis with him. poisons them, dirty bombs, chemcial warfare!?! Would have been nice to come full circle.

Mousewar

Nerdlingr wrote: »

I see Gilligan has said they put the M60 in at the start of season 5 before they knew what they we're going to do with it...hmmm...pity...it kinda played out that way in the end. I wanted Walt to go out in some chemistry induced way, taking the nazis with him. poisons them, dirty bombs, chemcial warfare!?! Would have been nice to come full circle.

He's talking BS as usual. At most he means he wasn't sure how it would pan out exactly but I'd bet a lot of money he had most of it planned out.

OhHiMark

Mousewar wrote: »

I'm actually with Torqay on this. To say there was anger in Walt's face when he said 'Jessie' is too strong an interpretation. I just rewatched it. I could just as easily say it was regret or sadness. It's not explicitly anger.

And I just don't think he went there with much anger directed towards Jessie. I think that faded away in New Hampshire. His speel to Jack about Jessie was definitely an attempt to stall his execution rather than a genuine accusation. Whether he intended to have Jessie brought in so he could be killed or merely to locate and save him is open to debate but generally I just felt it was the latter.

I agree that that was a tactic to stall him being killed, but I still think he didn't decide to save Jesse until he saw him.

D-FENS

snausages wrote: »

The blame for this lies with AMC imo. Had season 5 not been cut up and served across 14 months some of the events might have happened more naturally in the story. As it is season 5 kind of proceeded in fits and starts, with a lot of twists and cliffhangers in this half-season. I don't think they really needed another big bad after Gus. That was the series' climax. Season 5 would have worked better as a shortened epilogue season imo.

But Walt is the big bad after Gus, that's the point of it all, Gus had to die for Heisenberg to become king. Up until his "redemption" of course.

I do agree that Lydia and Jack's gang kind of fell into the show in the closing stages (They could have maybe at least mentioned Lydia as Gus' Madrigal contact or even had a little teaser scene with them both), but the introduction of new baddies like some sort of video game has been a theme of the show all along - Krazy 8, Tuco, Fring, Cartel - they were all to show how deep in the sh*t Walt was progressing until he's so far involved you can't tell him apart from any of them.

Plus, Todd is as close to a suitable replacement to Gus as you could possibly get.

You're right though, cutting S5 in two wasn't necessary story wise. But look how popular the show has become in the last year alone, has to have been pure gold to AMC.

Penn

Torqay wrote: »

Do you really think Walter White was stupid enough to assume Jack Welker would have made Pinkman a partner???

Not necessarily a partner, but that maybe Jesse offered to cook with them so they wouldn't kill him, rather than them forcing him to cook and being kept as their prisoner and having already had the crap kicked out of him (judging by his facial scars)

Sort of how Todd persuaded Jack to let him keep Jesse and keep cooking, Walt may have thought Jesse was the one who persuaded Jack to let him cook for them.

Hazys

IvaBigWun wrote: »

Walt is a weak, dying man and there was two of them. Yet they followed him to the car?

I don't get why there is an Anthony Wiener picture randomly in the thread?

Is it supposed to be a face palm meme, if so there's surely more obvious face palm memes out there.

snausages

D-FENS wrote: »

Plus, Todd is as close to a suitable replacement to Gus as you could possibly get.

Todd is good but I don't think he comes anywhere close to replacing the understated, calculated menace that Giancarlo Esposito brought to Gus.

Penn

IvaBigWun wrote: »

Walt is a weak, dying man and there was two of them. Yet they followed him to the car?

Walt is Heisenberg. They know what he's capable of. And with his confidence in "You're going to need a bigger knife", they're not going to risk taking him on.

the incredible pudding

Was i the only one hoping that Walt would do meth before he died?
"So this is what the fuss was all about eh?"

Penn

Only thing I was hoping was that instead of saying "Goodbye, Lydia", he said "Enjoy sh*tting yourself to death, Lydia"

Might have been a step too far though

PaddyCar

Are we sure Walt is dead?

Big Game

PaddyCar wrote: »

Are we sure Walt is dead?

Yes, 100,%. Even if you had any doubt after the show, Gilligan said it on talking bad after.

tigger123

Dempsey wrote: »

The weight of the gun itself absorbs most of the recoil. It is designed to be fired from a standing position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTm29B0HjJM

The type of machine gun used in the Jackal was a heavy machine gun, approximately twice the calibre of a M60. The 2 should not be confused, ever.

What will happen if someone confuses the two?

Mousewar

tigger123 wrote: »

What will happen if someone confuses the two?

They'll be lolled at.

D-FENS

snausages wrote: »

Todd is good but I don't think he comes anywhere close to replacing the understated, calculated menace that Giancarlo Esposito brought to Gus.

I agree, but he was as good as they could have hoped for following Gus, not quite as well acted for sure, and a more underwhelming presence but this just added to how unsettling Todd was. And was a totally different type of villian, as were Lydia and the Nazi's of course, which I think was the only way to go following Gus.

Mousewar

Definitely subscribe to the opinion that Walt was meant to be the bad guy in Season 5.
The rest were just the kind of scum bad guys attract.

Dolbert

April O Neill wrote: »

One of the episode highlights for me: Uncle Jack's FABULOUS purple V-neck jumper. Work it, guuuurrrrlll! *snaps fingers*

He stole Marie's purple... just like he stole her happiness! :eek: :pac:

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I feel that this is the episode where Breaking Bad 'jumps the shark'...

How can it jump the shark if it's the last episode?

Torqay

Torqay wrote: »

No, saving Jesse was part of the "Walter White Atonement" mission all along, he had to beg Jack on his knees to bring Jesse into the room.

That's it, I have to say something...what show do you actually watch when the rest of us are watching Breaking Bad?

---

And I love the way 'jumping the shark' has found its way into the debate. It should be noted that the poster who used the term first in this forum was later outed as someone who completely misread/misremembered the scene that they were actually attributing 'jump the shark' to.

I'll be along with my own personal thoughts on the finale later, but there really is some shíte being spouted here and beyond. Most of the negative reviews stem from people who are upset that they didn't see their ending happen on screen, or because there was no twist. It's at the point now that some people have latched onto this "dream" or "dying fantasy" theory that Walt froze to death in the car.

This years BB finale with the "Walt froze to death in the car" and "They should have shown his keys fall to the floor for the final shot" reminds me of the reaction to 2012's 'The Dark Knight Rises' - another piece of film that had an ending so hard to take for some people that they fabricated stuff out of thin air..."Bruce/Batman died in the explosion and the final scene in Florence is Alfred's dream"..."They should have just shown Alfred looking startled and not Bruce and Selina".

Yep, everyone knows how to do it better than the writers and director. I'm not saying that the BB finale is not deserving of criticism, I haven't even offered my own thoughts here yet, but some of the things I've read since Monday morning both in here and around the internet in general, are fúcking laughable.

folan

stankratz wrote: »

some of the things I've read since Monday morning both in here and around the internet in general, are fúcking laughable.

welcome to the internet.

ColeTrain

I'm happy with the ending. People can criticise it all they want but at least they ended it with everything tied up and didn't take the cowards way out.

It was all very well done. In the opening scene the flashing lights coming through the snow covered windows, the music as the laser pointers hit Elliot and Gretchen, the way Walt is just sitting there in the coffee shop. Breaking Bad was always good for that and it's certainly up there with the best of all time for me.

crazygeryy

I've watched it three times now. And each time i feel more sorry for walt..........a drug dealer and a murderer. Go figure.
Again a brilliant ending to the show and to those criticizing it, just how would you have liked it to end? Like the sopranos with **** loads of loose ends not tied up.no thanks.

kiffer

So... the cops show up, find the dead Nazis, the methlab and Walt's corpse...
They search the building and find Jesse's rat video.
Does that help or hinder Skylar?
There's talk of a Saul Goodman spinoff... will the existence of that video be a plot point?

ColeTrain

kiffer wrote: »

So... the cops show up, find the dead Nazis, the methlab and Walt's corpse...
They search the building and find Jesse's rat video.
Does that help or hinder Skylar?
There's talk of a Saul Goodman spinoff... will the existence of that video be a plot point?

You'd have to presume that Todd was smart enough to destroy that video.

clairefontaine

Mickeroo wrote: »

It is more of a grey area with Brock I admit, but there's no room for interpretation with the phone call. There may as well have been giant neon letters on screen saying it wasn't genuine. Even Skylar knew Walt didn't mean it, you really think she would have heard him out in the final episode otherwise?

Walt's a ruthless bastard but when it came to family he's been fairly consistent through the whole series, Hank was the only person i thought he might do in at one point but in the end even Hank's death devastated him.

This reminds me a bit of the way lots of people thought the ending of the last Batman film was all a dream even though the film went out of it's way to show it wasn't.

He meant every vicious word he said to Skyler on the phone as he was kidnapping Holly. Just as he meant every vicious word he said to Jesse about watching Jane die.

Big Game

kiffer wrote: »

So... the cops show up, find the dead Nazis, the methlab and Walt's corpse...
They search the building and find Jesse's rat video.
Does that help or hinder Skylar?
There's talk of a Saul Goodman spinoff... will the existence of that video be a plot point?

Better call Saul will be a prequel.

May well be a chance that the cops will assume Walt was the one being held and forced to cook when they find the set up in the lab and see the state of him. Might think he escaped and came back to get revenge. Jesse's dna will be everywhere in that pit and lab mind you but it might give him a window to head for Alaska!

ColeTrain

clairefontaine wrote: »

He meant every vicious word he said to Skyler on the phone as he was kidnapping Holly. Just as he meant every vicious word he said to Jesse about watching Jane die.

Deary me, were you on the meth while watching that episode :pac:

Penn

clairefontaine wrote: »

He meant every vicious word he said to Skyler on the phone as he was kidnapping Holly. Just as he meant every vicious word he said to Jesse about watching Jane die.

He didn't mean what he said to Skyler. Watch the first few minutes of Granite State, the next episode. He even says to Saul that he made the phone call to Skyler to help keep her out of trouble. Saul says it was a good idea, but that it wouldn't help her as much as Walt thought it might, and she'd still be in trouble.

This isn't something left open to interpretation. They flat out say that Walt's call to her was an act. Look at his face while making the call. The whole way through it he's fighting back tears at having to do it. He lets out a cry when he's destroying the phone after it. He says things which aren't true while on the phone. He waits for Skyler to realise what he's doing so she can play along.

He meant what he said to Jesse because he blamed Jesse for helping Hank capture him which resulted in Hank being killed. He didn't hate Skyler, but he realised that he had to go on the run, and if she wasn't coming with him, he needed to protect and hide her involvement in everything, and make it seem like he was forcing her into everything.

Honestly, watch the phone call scene and his scene with Saul in the vacuum repair place again.

Big Game

ColeTrain wrote: »

Deary me, were you on the meth while watching that episode :pac:

Said earlier in the thread, there was undoubtedly some of what he said that was dripping with bitterness and contempt for Skyler, lot of unresolved feelings there, their relationship had been essentially destroyed, it was in the gutter for the majority of the show.

lahalane

clairefontaine wrote: »

He meant every vicious word he said to Skyler on the phone as he was kidnapping Holly. Just as he meant every vicious word he said to Jesse about watching Jane die.

Then why was he crying?