Surface 2 and Pro 2

AlmightyCushion

vard wrote: »

I'm in the UK (London) and looking to buy a Surface 2. In an ideal world I'd be going for the pro... anyone have any experience with the RT version? The cheaper price is an obvious advantage, but the potential for the pro to act as a fully fledged laptop replacement would be nice. It's that little bit bigger though, and of course it's more expensive. I wonder how long it will take for the prices to fall a bit? Rambling... can't decide!

I can't see the price dropping until close to the introduction of the 3rd gen.

vard

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I can't see the price dropping until close to the introduction of the 3rd gen.

Cheers. I happened to find a second hand Surface 2(RT) going for a decent enough price on ebay. It includes a blue touch cover; with import / customs charges & shipping it comes to just under 400 Eur - or $530.

Might hold out and buy new though... or wait for the influx of abandoned xmas pressies.

AlmightyCushion

vard wrote: »

Cheers. I happened to find a second hand Surface 2(RT) going for a decent enough price on ebay. It includes a blue touch cover; with import / customs charges & shipping it comes to just under 400 Eur - or $530.

Might hold out and buy new though... or wait for the influx of abandoned xmas pressies.

Haven tried both, I'd go with the type cover. The stiffness works better for typing on uneven surfaces (no pun intended). I haven't tried the 2nd gen touch cover though.

Surinam

Type cover 2 has been fantastic for me so far. 2 weeks with Surface 2 and no complaints so far, a really useful machine that is incredibly flexible for my needs.

Tenger

Could I jump in here....

am thinking of getting a Surface 2 for my 16 year old. He was using my old laptop which has finally died recently (needs screen replacement)

We were looking at some laptops at approx E450-500 however the Surface 2 looks like it may well be a suitable laptop replacement.

Expected usage would be browsing and some word processing. Maybe some movie/TV watching. Doesn't require large SDD capacity. Nothing too hi spec

No iPad in the household but had been thinking of getting one. However online reviews seem to suggest the Surface is more of a laptop alternative than a pure tablet. From that PoV the Surface seems better buy than the iPad.

Any thoughts?

vard

Tenger wrote: »

Could I jump in here....

am thinking of getting a Surface 2 for my 16 year old. He was using my old laptop which has finally died recently (needs screen replacement)

We were looking at some laptops at approx E450-500 however the Surface 2 looks like it may well be a suitable laptop replacement.

Expected usage would be browsing and some word processing. Maybe some movie/TV watching. Doesn't require large SDD capacity. Nothing too hi spec

No iPad in the household but had been thinking of getting one. However online reviews seem to suggest the Surface is more of a laptop alternative than a pure tablet. From that PoV the Surface seems better buy than the iPad.

Any thoughts?

It would be best described as a hybrid. The Surface 2 is closer to a tablet, both in function and in size/heft. The Surface pro 2, while still a tablet, by all accounts, would be better suited as a laptop replacement. I'm still deciding between the two. If desktop programs are necessary then you have to go with the pro - but based on the requirements you listed it sounds like the RT version would do perfectly - perhaps it would be the better choice, considering the slimmer frame etc.

perfectblue

i have the first pro, using it as a laptop replacement. it is a smaller screen than my old laptop, but i have it hooked up to a screen. so it's really a desktop replacement, i suppose! as i noted before, though, i cannot type on my lap with the surface pro - the weight imbalance makes it too difficult for me. (i also often sit cross legged, so that definitely don't work).

Overheal

Tenger wrote: »

Could I jump in here....

am thinking of getting a Surface 2 for my 16 year old. He was using my old laptop which has finally died recently (needs screen replacement)

We were looking at some laptops at approx E450-500 however the Surface 2 looks like it may well be a suitable laptop replacement.

Expected usage would be browsing and some word processing. Maybe some movie/TV watching. Doesn't require large SDD capacity. Nothing too hi spec

No iPad in the household but had been thinking of getting one. However online reviews seem to suggest the Surface is more of a laptop alternative than a pure tablet. From that PoV the Surface seems better buy than the iPad.

Any thoughts?

The Surface 2 seems perfectly adequate for that. No extra software needed. While any new iOS devices include free iWorks, your son will want to have MS Office for school in most cases, just ease of use. That said, in the Irish education system when did anyone have to turn in a powerpoint? I could be 10 years out of date on that, but we did everything by hand, the ballsy way.

For productivity, Surface 2 wins. Keyboard covers, MS Office, USB Port. Speakers leave much to be desired.

Speakers are a little better on the iPad Air. The screen is definitely higher resolution. Battery life is comparable if not equal. Movies and games, both are decent choices, but the iPad has Airplay if you buy the Apple TV box. If you have a 360 though or definitely plan on the Xbox One a certain degree of streaming capability works with the Surface as well.

I don't think a laptop for movies is a great idea. I'd personally the Surface 2. For direct comparison, compare the Surface 2 64GB to the 64GB Air, throw in a case (because it needs to stand, arguably), and a keyboard (or even just a keyboard case /w stand), and you can see pretty quickly the Surface 2 also represents better value. Even compared to the 32GB Air, frankly.

32GB Air, $100 keyboard case combo - $699
64GB Surface 2, $129 Type Cover 2 - $680

Not to mention the Surface 2 has a Micro SDXC slot - the design limit of SDXC is 2 Terabytes. The largest produced micro though is still only 64GB, but its a pretty reasonable $50 to get a hold of.

wheresmybeaver wrote: »

The Skydrive integration in Windows 8.1 needs a bit of work - most importantly, some sort of notification area where you can see if anything is being synced. You need to know this sometimes if you know you're going to be offline later and you've set a large folder to be offline. There are few visual indicators to let you know you can disconnect from the network and get going. Skydrive functionality should be updated via the Store in the coming months so fingers crossed. Even as it stands its a great facility on Surface RT and Surface 2 - it means you only effectively need a 32GB device and can store everything else on Skydrive or a NAS at home.

If you open your SkyDrive folder in Windows Explorer (Press Win+E and its on the sidebar) you can see which items are "Available Offline" or "Online-Only". Depending on the app you can see sync status. Office programs show sync status. The One Note app will show you Syncing activity if there is anyway when you slide to the left to see your list of available notebooks.

For smartypants, you can change the location of your SkyDrive (google the eHow) and point it at a Micro SD card. Something I prefer as it frees C:\ to install programs while the card handles the synced copies of my files. That, and if you have a 32GB tablet but say a 200GB SkyDrive (quite possible now, though most people will have between 7GB and 25GB) the MicroSD will be able to accomodate the full size of that drive into the future. However pretend for the moment you won't sync your entire photo or music library to your tablet, just the essentials. In which case you can access most of your SkyDrive pretty comfortably on a 32gb or 64gb card. On my Desktop my SkyDrive is a solo partition on a secondary HDD leaving my SSD a lot more wiggle room.

shuffles03

I came across this cool YouTube video showcasing Surface 2 tips:

Has anyone watched movies/music on the Surface 2 using a connected external HD? Do the videos etc need to be in a specific format to play? Does the S2 need an app ie VLC to play the files on the external HD?

vard

shuffles03 wrote: »

I came across this cool YouTube video showcasing Surface 2 tips:

Has anyone watched movies/music on the Surface 2 using a connected external HD? Do the videos etc need to be in a specific format to play? Does the S2 need an app ie VLC to play the files on the external HD?

Well I jumped to it and bought a Surface 2 last week. I must say, so far I'm really impressed. The selection of apps is the only drawback really.

I have been playing videos from an external hard drive, accessed via smb network share, and all my videos have been playing without issue. A varied range of formats. So far no issues.

I believe there is a good app which is in development by VLC. I was hoping to find a replacement for XBMC.

shuffles03

How does smb work? What needs to be done. I use a Mac as my primary computer. If I was to fill a hard drive with content-movies, pictures etc, what steps would I need to take to play them on the S2?

Is smb done through the network or can it work offline?

Cheers.

vard

If you have a separate hard drive with all your files that you want to play/access then you can just plug it into the surface using the usb port! It should be as simple as that.

I just have a hard drive stored upstairs hooked into an always-on pc acting as a media server which I access through my wireless network. I don't need to be online, I just need to be connected to my network.

Overheal

If VLC is working on an app I am all ears.

DVD playback licensing was not baked into the Windows 8 OS like previous versions of Windows. Microsoft dropped paying the royalties because so many devices aren't even shipping with optical anymore. The bad part is this means RT devices can't play DVDs right now even with an external drive.

shuffles03

vard wrote: »

If you have a separate hard drive with all your files that you want to play/access then you can just plug it into the surface using the usb port! It should be as simple as that.

I just have a hard drive stored upstairs hooked into an always-on pc acting as a media server which I access through my wireless network. I don't need to be online, I just need to be connected to my network.

Cheers! If using a plugged in external HD, is the S2 open to many file types or should they be converted into a specific format first?

vard

shuffles03 wrote: »

Cheers! If using a plugged in external HD, is the S2 open to many file types or should they be converted into a specific format first?

It seems to be from my experience. All my files have played without issue using the default Xbox video player. Mostly mp4's and avi's. I don't think you'll need to convert! ��

54kroc

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Not a Surface but I bought the Dell Venue 8 today. Will post my first thoughts when it arrives.

I've a Venue 11 pro ordered, can't wait to get my hands on it but the delivery date is very close to xmas.
I'm guessing I might not see it until the new year.

Ronanc1

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Not a Surface but I bought the Dell Venue 8 today. Will post my first thoughts when it arrives.

Lisa Gade of mobiletechreview has beaten you to it! :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0v77gSxLtI

54kroc

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Not a Surface but I bought the Dell Venue 8 today. Will post my first thoughts when it arrives.

Did you get your's yet?
I checked on the progress of mine today and found that the order for the Venue 11 pro was cancelled but my order for the keyboard and accessoires was in production.
Not a happy camper.

kave2

Anyone bought Surface 2 Pro recently? Just received mine today and to my disappointment it is the one with 4200U and not the upgraded one with 4300U. Kinda pissed of. Will be looking to get replacement with the upgraded CPU.

TBi

Yes replace a perfectly good tablet because you didn't get the processor you wanted, but isn't guaranteed, driving up costs for everyone else. All for a tiny bump in processor speed!

Wuhoo thanks for driving up costs!

kave2

TBi wrote: »

Yes replace a perfectly good tablet because you didn't get the processor you wanted, but isn't guaranteed, driving up costs for everyone else. All for a tiny bump in processor speed!

Wuhoo thanks for driving up costs!

Are you feeling better now?

PaulieC

kave2 wrote: »

Anyone bought Surface 2 Pro recently? Just received mine today and to my disappointment it is the one with 4200U and not the upgraded one with 4300U. Kinda pissed of. Will be looking to get replacement with the upgraded CPU.

why didn't you get the one you wanted instead of the older one ?

TBi

It is the newer one, just MS did a mid cycle mini stealth upgrade of processor. He's upset that he didn't get the free upgrade so he's going to return a perfectly functioning tablet in the hope he'll get the newfangled 1% faster version. Probably keep returning it until he does.

Wuhoo for abusing the system for helping the customer in case of a genuine wrong purchase (10 day no quible return).

AlmightyCushion

TBi wrote: »

It is the newer one, just MS did a mid cycle mini stealth upgrade of processor. He's upset that he didn't get the free upgrade so he's going to return a perfectly functioning tablet in the hope he'll get the newfangled 1% faster version. Probably keep returning it until he does.

Wuhoo for abusing the system for helping the customer in case of a genuine wrong purchase (10 day no quible return).

I don't even think there will be a 1% difference. Apparently, thermal throttling will kick in before it can reach the higher speeds.

wheresmybeaver

Neither of the surface 2 (non Pro)models are currently in stock at the Microsoft online store, and the prices for them at Argos have gone way up. Are these actually proving popular? Or have Microsoft just stopped making them as many of them?

TBi

Seeing as they had a major surplus of the original Surface (and the stockholders weren't very happy about it) i'd say they just aren't building many. Could be popular though...

subscriber

Can anyone comment as to what "desktop programs" exactly are not compatabible with the surfact 2 non pro? Would iTunes be included in this catagory? Also, could anyone specify if apps such as netflix, spotify, Sky go media player and viber are available on the microsoft app store currently?

TBi

iTunes definitely won't work. Net flix, Viber and Spotify are there i think.

Sky go should work in a browser but i have a full fledge surface so can't check.

Overheal

subscriber wrote: »

Can anyone comment as to what "desktop programs" exactly are not compatabible with the surfact 2 non pro? Would iTunes be included in this catagory? Also, could anyone specify if apps such as netflix, spotify, Sky go media player and viber are available on the microsoft app store currently?

iTunes is a .exe

.exe files will NOT work on an RT tablet.

Anything that is available in the MS App Store will work. But it has to be an actual app, not just a link to 3rd party software. If it installs directly from the windows store, it will install on RT.

subscriber

Thanks, so What media system does the surface 2 use to store and play my music? Is it the traditional windows media player?

I also presume whatever built in media player there is will also be responsible for playing videos from an external hardrive?

AlmightyCushion

subscriber wrote: »

Thanks, so What media system does the surface 2 use to store and play my music? Is it the traditional windows media player?

I also presume whatever built in media player there is will also be responsible for playing videos from an external hardrive?

Windows media player is there, there is also the music app and video app. They deal with media stored on the internal storage and external storage.

subscriber

Not sure if there is anyone from Galway on this thread or not but i have tried PC world, curries, DID electrical and expert electrical to see if i can get a demo of the surface 2 non pro with no sucess as yet..

Only surface on display anywhere in Galway is the Pro 3 to my disappointment..

Anyone have suggestions on where i can phyiscally see the device in my hands in around the Connaught area before i buy it?

Also, any signs of Microsoft releasing a surface 3 non pro? The 12" screen in the RT platform wud be absolutely ideal...

Overheal

unlikely. the RT was an interesting concept but RT device sales never really took off that much, they made a substatial loss on the original RT and I'm not sure about the surface 2 but it probably wasn't too much better. Its still a good tablet, I use my RT for light reading and browsing in my bedroom and such, when pulling out the laptop or firing up the big rig feels like an awful lot of overkill to google something with, it probably gets used an hour a day or less and holds a charge for around a week, the surface 2 would fare even better

subscriber

Was finally ready this week to purchase the surface 2 but it is not in stock on the microsoft website. Dont paticulary want to buy from a retail outlet because they mark up the price by about 60 euros. Rang microsoft there to inquire about when they will be back in stock but they couldnt give me an answer. I also asked if yhey are being discontinued and they also couldnt answer this. Has anyone heard if they are being discontinued? Thanks

Fingleberries

subscriber wrote: »

Was finally ready this week to purchase the surface 2 but it is not in stock on the microsoft website. Dont paticulary want to buy from a retail outlet because they mark up the price by about 60 euros. Rang microsoft there to inquire about when they will be back in stock but they couldnt give me an answer. I also asked if yhey are being discontinued and they also couldnt answer this. Has anyone heard if they are being discontinued? Thanks

The Microsoft store in the US have stopped stocking the Surface Pro 2 (not sure about the Windows RT model) as they are fully concentrating on the Surface Pro 3.

The implication is that it is end of sales for the particular device.

subscriber

Fingleberries wrote: »

The Microsoft store in the US have stopped stocking the Surface Pro 2 (not sure about the Windows RT model) as they are fully concentrating on the Surface Pro 3.

The implication is that it is end of sales for the particular device.

Thanks, im just going to have to try hunt down one of the last remaining few units out there if I can. Arent all surface 2 non prob tabs running on the RT platform? Not possible to upgrade to windows 8 on them ? They have built in flash player dont they?

subscriber

can anyone think of any UK retailers that may still have a surface 2 in stock? Argos.co.uk still have some i stock but wont deliver to the republic..

Anywhere else i can try?

Ostrom

subscriber wrote: »

can anyone think of any UK retailers that may still have a surface 2 in stock? Argos.co.uk still have some i stock but wont deliver to the republic..

Anywhere else i can try?

I got one from ms UK store last week, delivered on friday. Not sure which models were in stock but I got the 64gb with lte.

subscriber

Ostrom wrote: »

I got one from ms UK store last week, delivered on friday. Not sure which models were in stock but I got the 64gb with lte.

Thanks, lte version is over my budget though.. just looking for the standard 64gb without sim compatibility..

subscriber

Hello again everyone,

Finally got my hands on a surface 2 non pro and have been using it now for the last three days, I have to say with the exception of the speakers, its a cracking device and wins over my previous android tab hands down.

I'm looking for a little help with a few questions I have in relation to a few of the common apps... some more trivial than others!!!

Viber:

My pre-existing viber profile photo that I had does not appear on my end of conversations any more, but appears as normal to others receiving my conversation comments?? Why is this??

New contacts of ppl I know have appeared in my viber contacts list despite NOT having been friends with them before and despite NOT having added them on any social platform including facebook, email, viber, skype ect... where on earth did they come from and how are did they appear in my viber contacts??

Gmail:

With the exception of using gmail through the internet explorer, what application are ppl using to access their gmail from their surface desktop? I have been using the preinstalled app simply named "mail". Although the app allows me to view mail, it does not allow me to access any of my email contacts.. if I wish to send an email to a contact stored in my gamil acc, I must send the email through gmail in my browser!! I have tried adding contacts to the app "mail" but it redirects me to another preinstalled microsoft app called "people" but this has just displayed a message of "synchronising" for the past three days but has yet to actually import any contacts from gmail??

Facebook Messenger:

The messenger app from facebook does not seem to be available in the microsoft app store, id imagine it is just not readily available for the surface tab. Grand, but what other instant messanger app can be used in conjunction with facebook to handle facebook mail? I'm finding it a right pain in the arse having to browse facebook and handle mail within the same application.. I tried using an app named "IM" Instant messenger but alas, it wudnt work. Any suggestions??

Skype:

The surface came with 1 years free premium skype but im not sure exactly what this entitles me to? In what way is this different to using regular free skype video chat? Also, there seems to be two preinstalled skype apps on my desktop.. skype regular and skype wifi.. what's the difference between the two and is it worth syncing my skype acc with both these applications?

One Drive:

only question here is that I was wondering if I can now use my new one drive acc to back up files from my old laptop if I access the acc on it or is one drive only compatible to back up memory from my new surface tab?

Live tiles:

Again, a short question. When I hold down on an app on the start screen, it gives me the option of turning a love tile on or off. If I turn a live tile off, does this prevent me from getting instant updates from that app to my device?

Recent Tabs:

Wen swiping from the left of the screen at any time, it shows all recently used applications and windows. Is there any way of closing these recently used windows otherwise id imagine they are running in the background using physical memory.. not ideal. I do not seem to be able to close them...

A few trivial questions I know but id still like to sort out these few things for the sake of ease and enjoyment of everyday use...

If anyone can shine a bit of light on this, id appreciate it.

delos

subscriber wrote: »

Hello again everyone,

Finally got my hands on a surface 2 non pro and have been using it now for the last three days, I have to say with the exception of the speakers, its a cracking device and wins over my previous android tab hands down.

I'm looking for a little help with a few questions I have in relation to a few of the common apps... some more trivial than others!!!

...

If anyone can shine a bit of light on this, id appreciate it.

A few thoughts from me on some of the issues:

Gmail:
I use Metromail, although it has been playing up with regard to the notifications over the last few days. Gmail is my junk mail account so I'm not too pushed about the performance - I don't want to configure Gmail in my main mail app to keep things clean and tidy.. I use the same app on my phone too so you might want to consider it.

OneDrive:
I haven't noticed any restrictions on the use of teh space what so ever.

Recent Tabs:
If you swipe down to close the app it shouldn't appear in the open apps list. I've never really noticed a performance hit having them there.

Speakers:
The speakers aren't great, but I find some things work better than others - YouTube can be poor but Netflix isn't too bad. For me they seem to work better if the Surface is on a solid surface. I usually have it resting on the keyboard (the keyboard folded back). At a pinch I use a USB headset and the sound is grand - Bluetooth speakers are also an option.
If you haven't got a keyboard for it, bite the bullet and get the one with the physical action. I know it's expensive, but if you do a lot of typing it will transform your experience.

Personally, I love my Surface 2. It's not a replacement for my PC, but it was never meant to be that.

Hope that helps a bit...

talla

Premium skype allows you to call landlines around the world.
It also allows use skpe wifi client(not just windows 8.1, theres IOS and Andoid clients also) which will allow you to connect and use pay hotspots for free in a lot of locations around the world.

subscriber

How long are ppl getting out of their battery on their surface two (non pro). The spec of the tab is advertised as 10 hours usage but is this time on standby?

I have been getting approx 4-5 hours of use from a fully charged battery with consistent use on wifi...

I put the tab on sleep mode last week whilst it was on 80% and left it in my bag over nite. When I woke it up in the morning time it was drained to about 6%. I was very surprised at this as it was not connected to wifi over nite and i thought it wud hold its charge on sleep mode much better than this.

I have heard some rumours lately that a batch of surface 2's were recalled for faulty batteries.. i hope my device is not one of these.

How has everyone been fairing out with battery life??

delos

subscriber wrote: »

How long are ppl getting out of their battery on their surface two (non pro). The spec of the tab is advertised as 10 hours usage but is this time on standby?

I have been getting approx 4-5 hours of use from a fully charged battery with consistent use on wifi...

I put the tab on sleep mode last week whilst it was on 80% and left it in my bag over nite. When I woke it up in the morning time it was drained to about 6%. I was very surprised at this as it was not connected to wifi over nite and i thought it wud hold its charge on sleep mode much better than this.

I have heard some rumours lately that a batch of surface 2's were recalled for faulty batteries.. i hope my device is not one of these.

How has everyone been fairing out with battery life??

I do know that my Surface 2 get updates while it is sleeping so I might have to look at what is going on with the power settings.

I certainly don't see power loss overnight like you describe. Some apps seem to drain more power than others too. The Microsoft Solitaire program seems to eat the battery is the one example that springs to mind.

subscriber

delos wrote: »

I do know that my Surface 2 get updates while it is sleeping so I might have to look at what is going on with the power settings.

I certainly don't see power loss overnight like you describe. Some apps seem to drain more power than others too. The Microsoft Solitaire program seems to eat the battery is the one example that springs to mind.

And as per general usage time.. how many approx hours are u getting from a full charge?

delos

subscriber wrote: »

And as per general usage time.. how many approx hours are u getting from a full charge?

OK, did some playing around over the weekend for you:

On standby overnight (about 9 hours) the battery drain is 5-6% so, based on this alone, there is something not right about your battery life.

On a full charge to the 3% warning, I can get just over nine episodes of Prison Break on Netflix (call that 7 hours) while running a full windows defender scan and carrying out the standard background operations. The screen brightness was turned up a little too (about 40%) so I's say I could probably squeeze 8 hours of Netflix on a single charge if I turned the brightness down to the standard setting.

Bottom line is that I think you need to get your battery looked at.

subscriber

delos wrote: »

OK, did some playing around over the weekend for you:

On standby overnight (about 9 hours) the battery drain is 5-6% so, based on this alone, there is something not right about your battery life.

On a full charge to the 3% warning, I can get just over nine episodes of Prison Break on Netflix (call that 7 hours) while running a full windows defender scan and carrying out the standard background operations. The screen brightness was turned up a little too (about 40%) so I's say I could probably squeeze 8 hours of Netflix on a single charge if I turned the brightness down to the standard setting.

Bottom line is that I think you need to get your battery looked at.

Most helpful.. Thanks for that!!!

subscriber

What protective covers is everyone using for their surface2 non pro's? I don't have a keyboard yet but will be getting one shortly.. most covers on amazon look flimsy as hell.. any suggestions?

delos

subscriber wrote: »

What protective covers is everyone using for their surface2 non pro's? I don't have a keyboard yet but will be getting one shortly.. most covers on amazon look flimsy as hell.. any suggestions?

Personally I just use the type cover as it keeps the screen protected. If you can stretch to the expensive touch keyboard it is much better.

When not in use my Surface lives in a cheap techair bag which keeps it protected and is handy for the charger and other bits and bobs. I'd also recommend getting a lens cleaning cloth from a photographic shop and keeping it just for the surface as it is just the job for getting the fingerprints off the screen.

subscriber

I bought a second hand touch keyboard for my surface two (non pro) from CEX yesterday. The button functionality of the keyboard works as should .....when the keyboard decides it wants to connect correctly....

I seems a bit iffy... Every time I snap on the keyboard, it may or may not decide to become active and pair with the tab itself. A few times, it was just really delayed, like up to a minute and then the mouse appeared on the screen, but on a few other occasions, it did not pair up at all and I had to snap the keyboard off and back on again to make it pair up.

I`m wondering whether I've gotten a keyboard with a dodgy connection or if this is just a typical normal problem all surface users are dealing with ?

Could anyone comment as to how quick or slow their keyboard pairs with their device each time they snap it on ....