Unhelpful 'gendering' of social issues

Ben Shekelberg

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

No she shouldn't. That is why we have limits in a society on what people can and cannot say. Were she to be stating a factual argument then I would agree with you but this article is just a rant and never deserved to see the light of day in a respectable publication.

If the editor refused to publish it she'd probably accuse him of sexual harassment and have him fired.

Ben Shekelberg

Women like Una Mullally is why I hate feminism.

old hippy

Ben Shekelberg wrote: »

Women like Una Mullally is why I hate feminism.

Yep, reduce an entire social movement to the writings of one individual :rolleyes:

Feminism is about equality, pure and simple. Something that women still strive for in some countries, corporations and other situations.

You'll always have a few people going off the page - doesn't mean you should dismiss social change because of them.

Ben Shekelberg

old hippy wrote: »

Yep, reduce an entire social movement to the writings of one individual :rolleyes:

Feminism is about equality, pure and simple. Something that women still strive for in some countries, corporations and other situations.

You'll always have a few people going off the page - doesn't mean you should dismiss social change because of them.

It's all a bunch of man-hating bs. Blah blah blah lets blames men for all our problems. Lets castrate all men so we won't be oppressed anymore. Like the blacks in America blaming whitey for everything.

old hippy

Ben Shekelberg wrote: »

It's all a bunch of man-hating bs. Blah blah blah lets blames men for all our problems. Lets castrate all men so we won't be oppressed anymore. Like the blacks in America blaming whitey for everything.

Oh, right. It's you again. Do you not get tired of this?

Ben Shekelberg

old hippy wrote: »

Oh, right. It's you again. Do you not get tired of this?

Tired of what?

cantdecide

A bit off topic so apologies.

old hippy wrote: »

Yep, reduce an entire social movement to the writings of one individual :rolleyes:



Feminism is about equality, pure and simple. Something that women still strive for in some countries, corporations and other situations.

You'll always have a few people going off the page - doesn't mean you should dismiss social change because of them.

Equality is about equality. Feminism is fundamentally about selective equality for some. You can't say you're interested in equality for you and those you identify with and everyone else has to paddle their own canoe.

In my opinion, it's an outmoded idea and the world won't move until we call feminism on it's inherent exclusivity. As long as society tolerates and encourages a lopsided movement, we will continue to move away from equality. I'm talking about the media, of course.

Radical "equality" should inherently be about equality and not hatred. It would be the same as a radical peace movement blowing up army barracks.

old hippy

Ben Shekelberg wrote: »

Tired of what?

The racist, misogynist bs.

Ben Shekelberg

old hippy wrote: »

The racist, misogynist bs.

By 'racist, misogynist bs' you mean 'unpleasant truths'. Feminism is good, now good back to sleep.

Ben Shekelberg

cantdecide wrote: »

A bit off topic so apologies.





Equality is about equality. Feminism is fundamentally about selective equality for some. You can't say you're interested in equality for you and those you identify with and everyone else has to paddle their own canoe.

In my opinion, it's an outmoded idea and the world won't move until we call feminism on it's inherent exclusivity. As long as society tolerates and encourages a lopsided movement, we will continue to move away from equality. I'm talking about the media, of course.

Radical "equality" should inherently be about equality and not hatred. It would be the same as a radical peace movement blowing up army barracks.

Exactly its anti-male rhetoric. If it was a movement directed against any other group other than men it would be called hateful.

Sauve

Mod

Keep it civil guys please.

newport2

cantdecide wrote: »

A bit off topic so apologies.





Equality is about equality. Feminism is fundamentally about selective equality for some. You can't say you're interested in equality for you and those you identify with and everyone else has to paddle their own canoe.

In my opinion, it's an outmoded idea and the world won't move until we call feminism on it's inherent exclusivity. As long as society tolerates and encourages a lopsided movement, we will continue to move away from equality. I'm talking about the media, of course.

Radical "equality" should inherently be about equality and not hatred. It would be the same as a radical peace movement blowing up army barracks.

Exactly. Anyone who genuinely supports equality (as opposed to selective equality) should call themselves an egalitarian.

iptba

newport2 wrote: »

Exactly. Anyone who genuinely supports equality (as opposed to selective equality) should call themselves an egalitarian.

I accept your point to an extent.

However, I think at this stage we need Men's Rights Activists/similar to bring balance to debates. If one has a court case and only one side are represented, either the plaintiff or defendant, the side that is represented will more often win the argument in the eyes of the jury/public/judge(s) than if the other side is represented and another viewpoint is given including challenging the first side. One needs people specifically giving alternative perspectives to bring balance.

This situation has arisen as clearly feminism isn't a balanced movement in terms of what it does or strives for. As cantdecide says:

Equality is about equality. Feminism is fundamentally about selective equality for some. You can't say you're interested in equality for you and those you identify with and everyone else has to paddle their own canoe.

newport2

iptba wrote: »

I accept your point to an extent.

However, I think at this stage we need Men's Rights Activists/similar to bring balance to debates. If one has a court case and only one side are represented, either the plaintiff or defendant, the side that is represented will more often win the argument in the eyes of the jury/public/judge(s) than if the other side is represented and another viewpoint is given including challenging the first side. One needs people specifically giving alternative perspectives to bring balance.

This situation has arisen as clearly feminism isn't a balanced movement in terms of what it does or strives for. As cantdecide says:

I think the optimal solution would be egalitarianism replacing feminism to work for both men and women reaching equal rights.

There would be no winner in Feminists Vs Men's Rights Activists. As per usual, the worst of both bunch would get the most coverage and claim to speak for all.

iptba

newport2 wrote: »

I think the optimal solution would be egalitarianism replacing feminism to work for both men and women reaching equal rights

I waited for that to happen for 20 years. Feminists continuously found more stuff to complain about.

newport2

iptba wrote: »

I waited for that to happen for 20 years. Feminists continuously found more stuff to complain about.

I will confess it is more wishful thinking on my part as opposed to expectations...........

Pawwed Rig

Has any women's org spoken out against Miss Mulally's articles or can we take the silence to mean that this is actually the voice of feminism?

newport2

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Has any women's org spoken out against Miss Mulally's articles or can we take the silence to mean that this is actually the voice of feminism?

Feminism doesn't have a voice. It has many, many voices, a lot of which are saying different and contradictory things.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Ben Shekelberg wrote: »

Exactly its anti-male rhetoric. If it was a movement directed against any other group other than men it would be called hateful.

You are assuming that Feminism is anti men, feminism was founded on principles of pro women's rights and pro female equality, not on principles of diminishing male rights rather diminishing male dominance and hegemony.

cantdecide

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

You are assuming that Feminism is anti men, feminism was founded on principles of pro women's rights and pro female equality, not on principles of diminishing male rights rather diminishing male dominance and hegemony.

Just ignoring men's rights and inequality where that exists. This is counter productive IMO and has given the more radical in the movement license to use passive aggressive sub-text.

Ben Shekelberg

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

You are assuming that Feminism is anti men, feminism was founded on principles of pro women's rights and pro female equality, not on principles of diminishing male rights rather diminishing male dominance and hegemony.

Men are being told day in day out they're primitive rapists who are the root of all society's problems. Feminists think men are obsolete now, despite our civilsation being built on the backs of men. Let me guess, you're a male feminist?

kunst nugget

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Has any women's org spoken out against Miss Mulally's articles or can we take the silence to mean that this is actually the voice of feminism?

Or could it be that the silence means that none of them are bothered paying any attention to her?

robindch

old hippy wrote: »

Feminism is about equality, pure and simple.

I haven't got that impression from much, if any, of the feminist output I've seen and read.

No, as cantdecide said above, it appears to concern itself mostly with a very selective kind of equality where implicit or explicit denigration of one sex is at least tolerated, if not tacitly encouraged, just as much as the other sex is promoted.

Equality, on the other hand, is about -- well -- ensuring that the equal rights and equal opportunities of all are promoted equally. And specifically, without the need to descend to the kind of broadly unpleasant gender-based accusations which accompany much feminist prose.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Ben Shekelberg wrote: »

Men are being told day in day out they're primitive rapists who are the root of all society's problems.

The best I could to that is that it is utter hyperbole!
After almost 50 years on this earth I have never heard it said.
I seem locked into the idea that all Feminists live by the mantra "all men are rapists", fortunately that is far removed from reality.
As a father of two daughters I don't want them discriminated against because of their gender, I believe there should be no ceiling above which they cannot rise.

Ben Shekelberg

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

The best I could to that is that it is utter hyperbole!
After almost 50 years on this earth I have never heard it said.
I seem locked into the idea that all Feminists live by the mantra "all men are rapists", fortunately that is far removed from reality.
As a father of two daughters I don't want them discriminated against because of their gender, I believe there should be no ceiling above which they cannot rise.

Do you have sons? Do you want them to grow up being told they're the problem with society, that its up to them to stop rape?

Pawwed Rig

kunst nugget wrote: »

Or could it be that the silence means that none of them are bothered paying any attention to her?

Some have supported her (such as women's aid) and she is writing on the topic for the paper of record in Ireland. She is getting alot of attention anyway and if someone is claiming to speak for me I would be clear on whether they echo my sentiments.

clairefontaine

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

The best I could to that is that it is utter hyperbole!
After almost 50 years on this earth I have never heard it said.
I seem locked into the idea that all Feminists live by the mantra "all men are rapists", fortunately that is far removed from reality.
As a father of two daughters I don't want them discriminated against because of their gender, I believe there should be no ceiling above which they cannot rise.

We'll then you better make sure they get good husbands who can support them throughout their careers.

The glass ceiling starts at home.

Feminism never got this. They just promoted the redundancy of men, the evil patriarchy of marriage, blah blah blah...

GalwayGuy2

After almost 50 years on this earth I have never heard it said.
I seem locked into the idea that all Feminists live by the mantra "all men are rapists", fortunately that is far removed from reality.

Really?

So you've never heard 'Your father, uncle, son' can be a rapist? Or how about 'teach men not to rape'? Or how about pornography makes men rape? Or naked women on telly make men rape? Or, the latest, alcohol makes men rape?

Surprisingly, seeing every man as a potential rapist can have an adverse effect on someone's mindset. It can turn a glance in the street into something to be afraid of, a naked woman on a telly into something that has a link to rape, and a dark street a place to be afraid of walking along alone.

kunst nugget

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Some have supported her (such as women's aid) and she is writing on the topic for the paper of record in Ireland. She is getting alot of attention anyway and if someone is claiming to speak for me I would be clear on whether they echo my sentiments.

There's a lot of extreme nonsense spouted by guys that I don't agree with but don't bother to comment on precisely because I think it's nonsense. Does my silence mean then that I endorse and agree with it?

Pawwed Rig

kunst nugget wrote: »

There's a lot of extreme nonsense spouted by guys that I don't agree with but don't bother to comment on precisely because I think it's nonsense. Does my silence mean then that I endorse and agree with it?

If is it is in the Irish Times and the article is claiming to speak for you then I would say Yes, you should at least have an opinion on it.

Just to remind people what was actually written in the article

Men, don’t rape
Instructing women to be careful gets men off the hook. The potential perpetrators of attacks are seldom asked to be as conscientious, apart from occasional innovations such as the Don’t Be That Guy campaign. So, women, be careful? How about men, don’t rape? Men, don’t murder your exes or partners. Men, don’t beat up your wives or girlfriends. Men, don’t assault someone you’ve just met that night. Men, don’t shout at women across the road just because you can. Men, stop hanging your threat of rape over dark streets.