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Unhelpful 'gendering' of social issues

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    #512
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Yet as a straight while male if I don't instantly shout down someone for saying anything remotely sexist/misogynistic/homophobic/racist/xenophobic I'm part of the problem right?

    Not unless you have a persecution complex


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    #513
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    I can't find the exact article and case that was discussed but I did find this:

    That actually reminded me of a current case.

    A 15 year old slept with someone saying she was 14, but she was 13. There's criminal proceedings happening.

    Bit of a weird situation, and I'm not entirely sure what sort of action should be taken, or not taken.

    Random, but just wondering everybody else s opinion are on it?

    EDIT:
    Not unless you have a persecution complex

    In fairness, there are theories that state what Buttonftw said.


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    #514
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    iptba wrote: »
    I started a thread on one such case here:
    This is based on a law made in the 2000s.

    I wouldn't depend on feminists to campaign against such laws.

    In this case the law is an ass, and a law passed by a male minister for justice , in a male dominated cabinet, and upheld by a male dominated Supreme Court.
    I can't for the life of me find the invisible hand of feminism anywhere in the making or upholding of that particularly offensive piece of legislation.
    if anything it looks more like a true act of patronization, that is the determination that "Silly vulnerable girls" need protecting.


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    #515
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    I can't for the life of me find the invisible hand of feminism anywhere in the making or upholding of that particularly offensive piece of legislation.

    You are right. A lot of laws were made to protect women back in the day (a good thing too). However, this particular gem needs to change with the times as you will probably agree. Especially as we are lead to believe that girls at that age are far more mature than boys.

    I don't think anyone would blame feminism for creating that law. But you certainly won't hear many complaining about it?


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    #516
    systemicrisk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭systemicrisk


    After reading the article in the OP and Mullally's recent one about feminism 4.0 with women trying to "lean in" while men stand in their way preventing them form doing so I think I am just about annoyed enough to boycott the Irish Times completely.

    It seems you cant go about your business believing everyone should have equal rights without being part of the problem if you dont explicitly identify as a feminist. Does any member of the editorial team actually read Una's work before it is published. Coupled with thinking all men are potential rapists I think we can see what her real view of equality is.


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    #517
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    systemicrisk wrote: »
    It seems you cant go about your business believing everyone should have equal rights without being part of the problem if you dont explicitly identify as a feminist. Does any member of the editorial team actually read Una's work before it is published. Coupled with thinking all men are potential rapists I think we can see what her real view of equality is.

    Aside from the content, her writing skills alone are not fit for a tabloid let alone a newspaper of record.


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    #518
    Standman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    It's interesting that when the law favours women over men, you get some people saying it's because of a patronising law made by men/ patriarchy. Then when the law favours men over women, again it's more patronising laws/ patriarchy. The old patriarchy glove seems to fit every hand!


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    #519
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,998 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    What?

    That doesn't stop you from writing to your legislators. You are a citizen, you have rights and you have responsibilities.

    No point complaining unless it's followed by action.

    Yes and I can just imagine the reaction from feminists who currently are campaigning to have all female sentencing reduced across the board if its suggested under 17 year old girls are potentially guilty of rape for having sex.

    Any competent politician would look at such a suggestion and burn it in a second due to the inevitable feminist backlash.


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    #520
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Standman wrote: »
    It's interesting that when the law favours women over men, you get some people saying it's because of a patronising law made by men/ patriarchy. Then when the law favours men over women, again it's more patronising laws/ patriarchy. The old patriarchy glove seems to fit every hand!

    You might try reading this
    http://www.engagemen-me.org/sites/default/files/Hegemonic%20Masculinity-%20Rethinking%20the%20Concept%20(R.%20W.%20Connell%20and%20James%20W.%20Messerschmidt).pdf


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    #521
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭iptba


    Standman wrote: »
    It's interesting that when the law favours women over men, you get some people saying it's because of a patronising law made by men/ patriarchy. Then when the law favours men over women, again it's more patronising laws/ patriarchy. The old patriarchy glove seems to fit every hand!
    Yes. A lot of it is based on the view that any men who have some sort of power* will use it to help men (over women). I'm not convinced this is the case. Individual men may do things that they feel may help themselves personally; it doesn't mean men act in a majorly partisan way to help other men over women.

    *I would argue there are lots of types of power. Politicians are constrained by what will get bad reactions in the media, for example.


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    #522
    donfers
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭donfers


    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    In this case the law is an ass, and a law passed by a male minister for justice , in a male dominated cabinet, and upheld by a male dominated Supreme Court.
    I can't for the life of me find the invisible hand of feminism anywhere in the making or upholding of that particularly offensive piece of legislation.
    if anything it looks more like a true act of patronization, that is the determination that "Silly vulnerable girls" need protecting.

    typical feminist mentality - focusing on maleness and femaleness instead of right and wrong

    doesn't matter a f**k who passed the law my friend, what matters is if it's fair or not - how about focusing on that instead of which guy or gal did this or that


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    #523
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    donfers wrote: »
    doesn't matter a f**k who passed the law my friend, what matters is if it's fair or not - how about focusing on that instead of which guy or gal did this or that
    That's like saying it doesn't matter what colour the legislators who introduced apartheid were!
    If power,political or judicial lies in the hands of one group, then how they exercise that power is deserving of critique!


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    #524
    cantdecide
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    That's like saying it doesn't matter what colour the legislators who introduced apartheid were!
    If power,political or judicial lies in the hands of one group, then how they exercise that power is deserving of critique!

    Fathers rights. Any opinion on that?


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    #525
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    cantdecide wrote: »
    Fathers rights. Any opinion on that?

    Are sadly neglected to the detriment of children, mainly due to a view taken by patriarchal legislators and judiciary that the wimmim should be mindin the kiddies!


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    #526
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭iptba


    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    That's like saying it doesn't matter what colour the legislators who introduced apartheid were!
    Except I don't think it's like apartheid. It wasn't exactly the case that with apartheid that whites had to do military service and were conscripted but blacks didn't do military service and weren't conscripted, to take one example. Or whites had much worse prison conditions than blacks. Or that when a black person and white person divorced, that the black person got custody of the children the vast majority of the time.


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    #527
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    Are sadly neglected to the detriment of children, mainly due to a view taken by patriarchal legislators and judiciary that the wimmim should be mindin the kiddies!

    So why do womens groups not campaign for equality on that point? It would actually benefit the career woman as would shared maternity/paternity leave, yet they are absolutely silent on the issue.


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    #528
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    So why do womens groups not campaign for equality on that point? It would actually benefit the career woman as would shared maternity/paternity leave, yet they are absolutely silent on the issue.

    It might well benefit all women, not only the "career women" (is their a male equivalent of that title, and if not, why?or is it a male conceived term for uppidy women?), but who are these women's groups of whom you speak, can you name a few Irish ones and indicate the number of members they have?


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    #529
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    It might well benefit all women, not only the "career women" (is their a male equivalent of that title, and if not, why?or is it a male conceived term for uppidy women?), but who are these women's groups of whom you speak, can you name a few Irish ones and indicate the number of members they have?

    Good point. What women's groups should I be looking out to complain about if they are silent on the issues raised? Also, has anyone on this forum actually engaged with any of these groups to ascertain their stance on any of the issues of concern to them?


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    #530
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    It might well benefit all women, not only the "career women" (is their a male equivalent of that title, and if not, why?or is it a male conceived term for uppidy women?),
    Businessman? Working man?
    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    but who are these women's groups of whom you speak, can you name a few Irish ones and indicate the number of members they have?

    You want me to give you a list of organisations that did not speak out about these issues?
    Just google 'womens groups ireland' or 'feminist groups ireland'. There are lists of them there.


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    #531
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    iptba wrote: »
    Yes. A lot of it is based on the view that any men who have some sort of power* will use it to help men (over women). I'm not convinced this is the case. Individual men may do things that they feel may help themselves personally; it doesn't mean men act in a majorly partisan way to help other men over women.

    *I would argue there are lots of types of power. Politicians are constrained by what will get bad reactions in the media, for example.

    This is generally how I feel things are as well but it is interesting to see how we can break down men into individuals but women and feminism seemed to be treated as a hive mind on this forum.


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    #532
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Businessman? Working man?



    You want me to give you a list of organisations that did not speak out about these issues?
    Just google 'womens groups ireland' or 'feminist groups ireland'. There are lists of them there.

    With respect, you will have to do better than that, the gender neutral version of businessman is businessperson. Career woman is a male conceiver term to describe women who break from the male designated stereotype of wife/mother.
    You brought up the question of why "WOMENS GROUPS" don't oppose certain unjust practices, consequently the onus is on you to name these groups and indicate the percentage of women in this country who support/are members of said groups.
    No disrespect but its a case of piss or get off the pot!


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    #533
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    So why do womens groups not campaign for equality on that point? It would actually benefit the career woman as would shared maternity/paternity leave, yet they are absolutely silent on the issue.

    They do, or at least I do, both as an individual, and as a member of various groups.

    I've lobbied FF, FG and Labour on this specific issue.

    It's on Labours manifesto.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/theindex/2011/02/18/manifesto-promises-to-allow-fathers-to-share-maternity-leave-are-good-for-all-women/

    See laws drafted last year (FF senator), to go for approval hopefully this year.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0711/461808-maternity-leave-bill/


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    #534
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭iptba


    pwurple wrote: »
    They do, or at least I do, both as an individual, and as a member of various groups.

    I've lobbied FF, FG and Labour on this specific issue.

    It's on Labours manifesto.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/theindex/2011/02/18/manifesto-promises-to-allow-fathers-to-share-maternity-leave-are-good-for-all-women/

    See laws drafted last year (FF senator), to go for approval hopefully this year.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0711/461808-maternity-leave-bill/
    A common reason I have seen some women argue for this is because they felt it would help women with their careers in the long-term. So I don't see this as a good example of women's groups/feminists fighting for an equality issue (i.e. that wasn't about helping women).


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    #535
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    So why do womens groups not campaign for equality on that point? It would actually benefit the career woman as would shared maternity/paternity leave, yet they are absolutely silent on the issue.

    I googled Feminist Groups in Ireland, clicked on the first one, The Irish Feminist Network and searched on there for shared maternity leave and lo and behold:

    http://www.irishfeministnetwork.org/1/post/2012/03/iwd-special-parental-leave-in-ireland-the-case-for-reform.html


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    #536
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    iptba wrote: »
    A common reason I have seen some women argue for this is because they felt it would help women with their careers in the long-term.
    A disgusting comment beneath contempt!
    Yea the poor dumb wimmins need all the "career help" they can get because they will never be good enough on their own merits!


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    #537
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I googled Feminist Groups in Ireland, clicked on the first one, The Irish Feminist Network and searched on there for shared maternity leave and lo and behold:

    http://www.irishfeministnetwork.org/1/post/2012/03/iwd-special-parental-leave-in-ireland-the-case-for-reform.html

    What percentage of Irish women subscribe to this organization or otherwise support it?


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    #538
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    iptba wrote: »
    A common reason I have seen some women argue for this is because they felt it would help women with their careers in the long-term. So I don't see this as a good example of women's groups/feminists fighting for an equality issue (i.e. that wasn't about helping women).

    It helps both men and women. Hence the equality part.

    It hardly needs to be spelled out... but men would get an opportunity to spend time with their offspring if they wanted it. I know my own husband is not happy taking holiday time to see his own children when they are young, or to look after our child while I am in maternity hospital.


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    #539
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    iptba wrote: »
    A common reason I have seen some women argue for this is because they felt it would help women with their careers in the long-term. So I don't see this as a good example of women's groups/feminists fighting for an equality issue (i.e. that wasn't about helping women).

    There trying to argue what the benefits will be for both parties involved and the long term benefits to the economy. Where's the problem there? It seems to me that no matter what is attempted there, once it's viewed through the prism of feminism and men's rights, nothing will placate some people.


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    #540
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    What percentage of Irish women subscribe to this organization or otherwise support it?

    I'm not sure but I'm guessing all the womens in Ireland because they're all against us.


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    #541
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭iptba


    Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »
    iptba wrote:
    A common reason I have seen some women argue for this is because they felt it would help women with their careers in the long-term.

    A disgusting comment beneath contempt!
    Yea the poor dumb wimmins need all the "career help" they can get because they will never be good enough on their own merits!
    You sound like you're from the "Shame" school of debate (as a way of shutting people up).

    All I said was I have heard it argued that women lose out in their careers because they take more time out for parental leave than men and if this was dealt with, there might be similar outcomes for each gender. And so the move wasn't motivated by a desire simply to help men.

    I don't know what is shameful or disgusting about mentioning this.


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