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Unhelpful 'gendering' of social issues

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    #122
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I don't want to drag this off topic
    Then let's not and just leave the point as debatable.
    White collar crime is crime just as any other crime is a crime.
    I wasn't exactly being serious. I'll use a smiley next time.


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    #123
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    I'm beginning to think that the editor is more to blame for allowing this get published than the author for writing it.

    There will always be an extremist element in society wanting to air it's views but they are usually blocked by mainstream media. I doubt the editor would allow an article supporting the Real IRA be published, or an article blaming foreigners for destroying our economy and being criminals (and rightly so of course!).

    So why did Kevin O'Sullivan allow this be published? Does he agree with it, is he afraid of the journalist or did he not even see it before it went to press?


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    #124
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    The logic of the piece is just in my view. I feel the same about muslims. I know a few and they are gentle kind sorts, and one is a sufi. Lovely guy. Nice version of the religion. Statistically though he probably knows, or is related to, some muslim who goes to a more radical mosque. And that guy he knows, while not being a terrorist, is like the visitors to strip clubs who are not rapists, but are still women haters - well this guy my sufi friend knows is a Western hater at his radical Mosque. And so are muslim terrorists western haters, but more extreme again.

    I conclude therefore, that all muslims are terrorists, and in no sense is my nice muslim friend exempt.


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    #125
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    The logic of the piece is just in my view. I feel the same about muslims. I know a few and they are gentle kind sorts, and one is a sufi. Lovely guy. Nice version of the religion. Statistically though he probably knows, or is related to, some muslim who goes to a more radical mosque. And that guy he knows, while not being a terrorist, is like the visitors to strip clubs who are not rapists, but are still women haters - well this guy my sufi friend knows is a Western hater at his radical Mosque. And so are muslim terrorists western haters, but more extreme again.

    I conclude therefore, that all muslims are terrorists, and in no sense is my nice muslim friend exempt.

    You've lost me.


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    #126
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    There is also a strange assumption by the columnist that women do not have male friends.
    Not at all; maybe she believes that it's simply that it is not a woman friend's responsibility to intercede if she has such suspicions. It's clearly a man's job.

    Not to mention that she's unlikely to know about any male friend who's "a little wayward, and whose behaviour towards women is dubious" - it's a well known fact that we men only discuss our rape exploits when we meet at the local masonic lodge, where we go to organize the perpetuation of the Patriarchy, before going on to a brothel that specializes in trafficked women.

    :rolleyes:


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    #127
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    I seriously doubt she has male friends, or at least you won't have many now.


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    #128
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    py2006 wrote: »
    The article suggests that I am potentially a rapist and some of my friends are aware of this but choose to turn a blind eye. Equally it suggests that I KNOW a rapist, he is one of my friends/family, and I choose to turn a blind eye.

    I only skimmed the article. Does it address the fairly plausible scenario that all these rapists also know women or is it just the usual infantilisation of womens roles and responsibilities in society?


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    #129
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,362 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    You've lost me.

    Mod note - You've lost me too. Please clarify what you are trying to say here Frank Lee Midere

    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    The logic of the piece is just in my view. I feel the same about muslims. I know a few and they are gentle kind sorts, and one is a sufi. Lovely guy. Nice version of the religion. Statistically though he probably knows, or is related to, some muslim who goes to a more radical mosque. And that guy he knows, while not being a terrorist, is like the visitors to strip clubs who are not rapists, but are still women haters - well this guy my sufi friend knows is a Western hater at his radical Mosque. And so are muslim terrorists western haters, but more extreme again.

    I conclude therefore, that all muslims are terrorists, and in no sense is my nice muslim friend exempt.


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    #130
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    psinno wrote: »
    I only skimmed the article. Does it address the fairly plausible scenario that all these rapists also know women or is it just the usual infantilisation of womens roles and responsibilities in society?

    I think I can summarise the article for you.

    Some men are bad, other men know these men, therefore all men are bad.


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    #131
    Pepe LeFrits
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    I think Frank was attempting to ridicule the article by substituting Muslims and Terrorism for Men and Rape. Or maybe he just really doesn't like Muslims...


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    #132
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    I think I can summarise the article for you.

    Some men are bad, other men know these men, therefore all men are bad.


    Or perhaps what she meant but made an arse of expressing is -

    Some men have a bad attitude to women, could the men that dont share this attitude but are aware of it in their friends, do humanity a favour by having a word or keeping an eye on them in situations where they may make others uncomfortable. This might be helpful as the current advice is for women to avoid these situations entirely and treat all men like the one you might know that is dodgy, which is unfair to all men.


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    #133
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Mod note - You've lost me too. Please clarify what you are trying to say here Frank Lee Midere

    Really?

    I am using her logic but replacing men with Muslims, strip joints with radical mosques, and rapists with terrorists.

    I was toying with saying that at the end but assumed it was obvious.

    Clearly if someone were to write my piece in a national newspaper they would be , justly, assuaged of generalisations or racism/sectarianism.


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    #134
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    SeventySix wrote: »
    Or perhaps what she meant but made an arse of expressing is -

    Some men have a bad attitude to women, could the people that dont share this attitude but are aware of it in their friends, do humanity a favour by having a word or keeping an eye on them in situations where they may make others uncomfortable. This might be helpful as the current advice is for women to avoid these situations entirely and treat all men like the one you might know that is dodgy, which is unfair to all men.

    FTFY


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    #135
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    psinno wrote: »
    FTFY

    No, she definitely meant Men, she was definitely asking Men to do something.

    People should do it, but she decided to ask it of men only, as she feels that men as a gender perhaps arent being asked to help currently.


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    #136
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Considering that ALL rapists have a mother, wouldn't the article have been better directed towards women? ;)


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    #137
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,362 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    I am using her logic but replacing men with Muslims, strip joints with radical mosques, and rapists with terrorists.

    Thank you for the clarification. Post on


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    #138
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    SeventySix wrote: »
    No, she definitely meant Men, she was definitely asking Men to do something.

    People should do it, but she decided to ask it of men only, as she feels that men as a gender perhaps arent being asked to help currently.
    I know that the quality of journalism is pretty bad in Ireland, but aren't you just pushing the bounds of credibility just a bit when you try to 'explain' how she's been misunderstood so?

    I'm afraid it's simply not a reasonable defence to suggest that she was unclear or didn't explain herself properly. Even if she's a journalist of limited talent, the editorial still got vetted before getting published, so in reality it's means what it says.

    The most likely interpretation is the obvious one; she's a bigot.


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    #139
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    SeventySix wrote: »
    People should do it, but she decided to ask it of men only, as she feels that men as a gender perhaps arent being asked to help currently.
    That must come as a surprise to those male garda investigating rape.


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    #140
    donfers
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭donfers


    guys and gals,

    you really should get your complaints in about this, enough is enough

    we are now being told that unless we somehow invoke our magic "predict-a-rapist" powers and identify the culprit prior to the crime then we are somehow culpable too

    men are fair game in the media, I know that, any kind of slur or insult against men is generally deemed acceptable and humorous but where to draw the line?

    this is the kind of stuff you'd expect to read in some whackjob feminist's "men are the devil" blog and that would be OK but in the Irish Times, Jesus - it's shameful


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    #141
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Back to what the poster asked how not to make social issuers one gender only issue or one gender verse the other issues, in this sexual violence.

    I think awareness raising in schools with early teens would go along way in doing this, however to do this you would have to discuss topics that are deeply uncomfortable for society, such as the power and powerlessness in society, the role of sexual fantasy, the role of parenting in the development of aberrant personalities, the need for status in society, discussion around structure and agency in shaping behaviour and so.


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    #142
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Back to what the poster asked how not to make social issuers one gender only issue or one gender verse the other issues, in this sexual violence.

    I think awareness raising in schools with early teens would go along way in doing this, however to do this you would have to discuss topics that are deeply uncomfortable for society, such as the power and powerlessness in society, the role of sexual fantasy, the role of parenting in the development of aberrant personalities, the need for status in society, discussion around structure and agency in shaping behaviour and so.
    Indeed. However, I think you should be emailing those suggestions to Ms Mullally, rather than posting it here.


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    #143
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Didn't the IT fire Kevin Myers for some slur he made about single mothers?

    I wonder if she will get fired too eventually.

    I don't like the IT, never have. This really surpasses bad bad bad journalism, and its readers are white middle class Irish people right? Tis is Ireland's paper of record?

    That's embarrassing. It's nearly as bad as the Guardian.


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    #144
    charlie_says
    Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭charlie_says


    What a horrible article, and illogical to boot.

    Don't tar all readers as idiots; but don't write condescending crap?


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    #145
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I know that the quality of journalism is pretty bad in Ireland, but aren't you just pushing the bounds of credibility just a bit when you try to 'explain' how she's been misunderstood so?

    I'm afraid it's simply not a reasonable defence to suggest that she was unclear or didn't explain herself properly. Even if she's a journalist of limited talent, the editorial still got vetted before getting published, so in reality it's means what it says.

    The most likely interpretation is the obvious one; she's a bigot.

    Was there any way that she could have targeted the article towards men doing something to prevent sexual violence without being labeled a bigot, do you think?

    I am not being sarky, genuinely want to know.She is asking something of men, that the men here it seems dont want to be asked to do, that it seems they dont feel they should have to do. Is that a fair assertion?

    Is it fair to say that men with little respect for women, probably dont have many close women friends? That the influence of women in that case probably wont mean much to someone that already has a bad attitude.
    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    That must come as a surprise to those male garda investigating rape.
    I think we are talking about wider society rather than just law inforcement, that its about prevention more than action after the fact.


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    #146
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    SeventySix wrote: »
    Was there any way that she could have targeted the article towards men doing something to prevent sexual violence without being labeled a bigot, do you think?

    I am not being sarky, genuinely want to know.She is asking something of men, that the men here it seems dont want to be asked to do, that it seems they dont feel they should have to do. Is that a fair assertion?

    Is it fair to say that men with little respect for women, probably dont have many close women friends? That the influence of women in that case probably wont mean much to someone that already has a bad attitude.


    I think we are talking about wider society rather than just law inforcement, that its about prevention more than action after the fact.

    Its stupid too though.

    You think rapists out there reading that article or now going to say to themselves "That dumb bitch says I should not rape" so I'm not going to?

    She's an idiot. No street smarts. Just out of college liberal intellectual masterbation the IT decided to share with the world.


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    #147
    donfers
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭donfers


    on her twitter feed she says she is encouraging men to tell their male friends and male family members not to be abusive to women and she doesn't even realise how insane that sounds

    "Hi Dad, listen I read an article tonight and it had a real effect on me, I am going to have to ask you not to rape or beat up any women ok"


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    #148
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    clairefontaine wrote: »

    You think rapists out there reading that article or now going to say to themselves "That dumb bitch says I should not rape" so I'm not going to?

    No, of course not. But could it be possible that a young man that hasnt raped but has been openly dismissive of women, is agressive towards them in nightclubs with out having actually steped fully over the line, could be influenced toward having abetter attitude by his peers. Is it possible that this prevents a rape in 10 years?

    I know I seem to be defending her, which is not really my intention. But I do defend the principal that all the reasonable decent men out there are not entired powerless to try and intervene when one of their associates is getting out of line.


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    #149
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    I think you might be missing the point that some men are making I.e why ask men ALONE to do something about sexual violence, It is a societally problem not a gender only problem so why not ask how can society ( which is make up of men an women) to do something about this.


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    #150
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    donfers wrote: »
    on her twitter feed she says she is encouraging men to tell their male friends and male family members not to be abusive to women and she doesn't even realise how insane that sounds

    "Hi Dad, listen I read an article tonight and it had a real effect on me, I am going to have to ask you not to rape or beat up any women ok"

    Jesus, are you being deliberately obtuse?

    One of your friends is striking out with women all over the place in a nightclub, getting drunk and frustrated and angry, calling them all bitches and sluts, grabbing girls arms as they walk by. In that case, could you see a possiblity that you might step in, tell him to chill out, be a bit more respectful, that how he is acting is not acceptable.


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    #151
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    donfers wrote: »
    on her twitter feed she says she is encouraging men to tell their male friends and male family members not to be abusive to women and she doesn't even realise how insane that sounds

    "Hi Dad, listen I read an article tonight and it had a real effect on me, I am going to have to ask you not to rape or beat up any women ok"

    Jesus, I'd say that's really going to work. The criminals won't give a sh*t and all the other men, the vast majority I will add, will be highly insulted that their friend or family member thinks they could be a wife beater or a rapist. :rolleyes:


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