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Unhelpful 'gendering' of social issues

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    #182
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    SeventySix wrote: »

    My point is that I dont think there is anything inherently sexist or unreasonable in asking that men be aware that their friends might be getting a little out of line and exert some influence if they can.

    Why does that say men?


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    #183
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    donfers wrote: »
    Thanks for telling me what I took from it, but would it be reasonable to suggest that I know best what I took from it or does your dogma stretch to deeming yourself able to peer inside the minds of others.

    I didn't think take from what she said that all my family and friends or rapists, what I took from it was the implied suggestion that it was a possibility and that I should take action to ensure otherwise which is preposterous.

    Any man or woman is capable of anything, it is not my duty, obligation or responsibility to second-guess what goes in the darkest recesses of the minds of those around me.

    I can only act on evidence, if I see, hear or witness anything dodgy then I will intervene but to suggest some kind of pre-emptive intervention just on the basis that somebody is male is blatantly sexist and as crackpot an idea as thinking you know the mind of another better than they do

    donfers wrote: »
    I am not being obtuse at all, she is, none of my family or friends behave like that and I resent the fact that both you and she seem to be implying that they do

    It was from this, that I felt that you thought I (and the author) were accusing your family and friends of abusive behaviour. If you read what you wrote was what I took from it unreasonable? To me, you are saying I accused your family and friends of being abusive to women. You dont mention ' implied suggestion that it was a possibility ' here.


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    #184
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    psinno wrote: »
    Why does that say men?
    Is it sexist now to just say 'men'? To address something to one gender in particular, when I am honestly not being pejoritive. Its a suggestion of something men could possibly do.

    I am not even close to suggesting that men are guilty of anything, not placing blame for anything.


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    #185
    donfers
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭donfers


    SeventySix wrote: »
    It was from this, that I felt that you thought I (and the author) were accusing your family and friends of abusive behaviour. If you read what you wrote was what I took from it unreasonable? To me, you are saying I accused your family and friends of being abusive to women. You dont mention ' implied suggestion that it was a possibility ' here.


    wrong - what you said was

    "From this he took that she is saying that all his family members and friends are rapists."

    move the goalposts all you like

    also when I said

    "I am not being obtuse at all, she is, none of my family or friends behave like that and I resent the fact that both you and she seem to be implying that they do"

    I was referring to your claims about dodgy behaviour in night clubs

    also please tell me the difference between "seem to be implying" and "implied suggestion that it was a possibility"

    Thanks


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    #186
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    SeventySix wrote: »
    Is it sexist now to just say 'men'? To address something to one gender in particular, when I am honestly not being pejoritive. Its a suggestion of something men could possibly do.

    I am not even close to suggesting that men are guilty of anything, not placing blame for anything.

    Strangely you didn't answer the question at all.


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    #187
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,493 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    SeventySix wrote: »
    I am not saying its not to rape, I am staying that maybe with early intervention by a man that they respect might help them not get to a point where that is even a possiblity. Surely you can see what I mean? Or are rapists born that way?

    I do see what you mean but it is a bit simplistic, sexual attitudes are formed in a variety of ways and probably before adult hood, for example home life and parenting is going to be at least as important as friend in forming attenuated


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    #188
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    SeventySix wrote: »
    I am not even close to suggesting that men are guilty of anything, not placing blame for anything.
    Then if men are not guilty of anything, why are they deserving of special criticism?


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    #189
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    SeventySix wrote: »
    My point is that I dont think there is anything inherently sexist or unreasonable in asking that men be aware that their friends might be getting a little out of line and exert some influence if they can.
    Asking only men and suggesting that only men should exert such influence is sexist.

    It presumes only (and all) men are aware of anything going on, that the prevalence is such that every group of male friends will have at least one "wayward" member and it presumes that women cannot or need not exert influence (which in turn is based upon the false presumption that rape and misogyny are interlinked).

    All of these presumptions are sexist and offensive.

    And that is before one considers the other, frankly misandrist, accusations she makes in the article.


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    #190
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Then if men are not guilty of anything, why are they deserving of special criticism?

    What criticism? I am suggesting that there is something that men might possibly do, if they like.


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    #191
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    SeventySix wrote: »
    What criticism? I am suggesting that there is something that men might possibly do, if they like.
    We're all discussing the article, as were you, and it's not shy on criticizing men:
    "You can’t tar every man with the same brush, but men must accept that most violent crimes perpetrated against women are by men, and that they have the power to stop this."


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    #192
    Compu Global Hyper Meganet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭Compu Global Hyper Meganet


    Whenever someone makes outlandish remarks, I think that it's always worthwhile to look at potential motives. One thing that strikes me is that this article could have been written by a C student under huge time constraints in the Leaving Cert. Putting aside the delicate subject matter, the writing style is incoherent. The journalist seems to have little appreciation for diction or sentence construct. In short, it's technically awful.

    Were she to write a reasonable, balanced piece it would never get published. Therefore she must go over the top to earn her crust. Ultimately, this is a woman who wants to be a writer, but lacks the skill set to succeed. To compensate she writes a provocative yet illogical article and here we are ignoring her obvious faults.

    I suppose it's similar to US politics. You could study, work hard and become intelligent enough to gain a position of power. Or you could spout invective to get noticed instead (see Rick Perry/Sarah Palin). Being provocative is the only recourse if you lack talent.


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    #193
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Asking only men and suggesting that only men should exert such influence is sexist.

    It presumes only (and all) men are aware of anything going on, that the prevalence is such that every group of male friends will have at least one "wayward" member and it presumes that women cannot or need not exert influence (which in turn is based upon the false presumption that rape and misogyny are interlinked).

    All of these presumptions are sexist and offensive.

    And that is before one considers the other, frankly misandrist, accusations she makes in the article.

    The author was the one that said it was every group of friends. I made no such claim.

    I didnt say only men should do it, but that men could do it.

    Also its not to say women cannot or do not exert influence and have their own responsibilites but that there is a case to highlight the potential influence of men on other men. Is that not allowed at all? Is it sexist to suggest that it would be good if men encouraged boys to be active and healthy as men might exert more influence? I honestly didnt think it was, but maybe it is.


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    #194
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I do see what you mean but it is a bit simplistic, sexual attitudes are formed in a variety of ways and probably before adult hood, for example home life and parenting is going to be at least as important as friend in forming attenuated


    Sure, but we are not going to find a one-size-fits-all solution to rape, are we? But lots of small, simple things might help a little. Yes simplistic, but pehaps still worth doing or at least attempting? Is it better to do nothing?


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    #195
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    We're all discussing the article, as were you, and it's not shy on criticizing men:
    "You can’t tar every man with the same brush, but men must accept that most violent crimes perpetrated against women are by men, and that they have the power to stop this."

    Ok, I just want to make it clear that I am not criticising men, that I am not a man hater and dont blame all men for rape at all.

    The article and author mgiht, but I do not. I have already been called an apologist for this author and I want to be clear that I am not.


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    #196
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    SeventySix wrote: »
    The author was the one that said it was every group of friends. I made no such claim.
    I don't know what you're talking about, but everyone else is discussing the article. As there's clearly confusion going on here, perhaps you should stop replying to what is, at this stage, and overwhelming number of posts and start from the beginning again.
    I didnt say only men should do it, but that men could do it.
    Actually you did when you argued that women would not be listened to on the erroneous basis that rapists are misogynists and would not respect them enough to listen to them.
    Compu Global Hyper Meganet wrote: »
    Were she to write a reasonable, balanced piece it would never get published. Therefore she must go over the top to earn her crust. Ultimately, this is a woman who wants to be a writer, but lacks the skill set to succeed. To compensate she writes a provocative yet illogical article and here we are ignoring her obvious faults.
    It's crossed a few minds here, if only because we'd otherwise be incredulous that anyone with such extreme and abhorrent views would ever be given such a public platform for them, or that a national newspaper would supply it.

    This is, you could well be right - she's not a terribly good writer, after all - but in reality such people do exist and even if in this instance it was nothing more than a troll, if accepted more such views will follow.


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    #197
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Does someone who commits rape ONCE a rapist? Doesn't the definition of rapist imply serial behaviour?

    There can be many circumstances to rape, like warfare for example, sometimes peer pressure too. I don't k ow of it means anyone who commits rape is a misogynist, these labels are distracting. It's like saying someone who committed murder or a frustration crime is a misanthropist. Does it really matter?

    The article is so reductive and superficial, no insight.


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    #198
    ConFurioso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 378 ✭✭ConFurioso


    What are people's opinions on that actually...

    Do we think it's just link bait, with both editor and writer involved?

    Or is it link bait with just the editor utilizing an opportunity that presented itself?

    Or perhaps both editor and writer are oblivious to the terrible level of writing and both thought they were adding a quality argument to the debate?


    I'd be inclined to go for B, as C is just too depressing to think about.


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    #199
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,493 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    SeventySix wrote: »
    Sure, but we are not going to find a one-size-fits-all solution to rape, are we? But lots of small, simple things might help a little. Yes simplistic, but pehaps still worth doing or at least attempting? Is it better to do nothing?

    Did you read the Wikipedia on the causes of sexual violence?, rape has been around since the dawn of time and with all advances in psychology, sociology, understanding of crime and punishment, understanding of society etc. it is still happening, plus should men be role models to other men maybe they don't see why they should be, maybe they are not interested in being a role model, and perhaps role models has no effect on changing sexual behaviour in sexually violent men.


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    #200
    SeventySix
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SeventySix


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Actually you did when you argued that women would not be listened to on the erroneous basis that rapists are misogynists and would not respect them enough to listen to them.

    I will address just this point specifically so neither of us are overwhelmed. I, definitely did say that it was unlikely that a misogynist would listen to a woman if she was telling him his behaviour was out of line. I never said she shouldnt say it, just that he might not listen. I have never said that all rapists are misogynists but that misogynists treat women with disrespect and it would be worth the effort for a man that the misogynist does respect to tell him its not on.

    I thought that given everyone seems to have the same opinion of the article, that the discussion had broadened in to whether its is always unreasonable to ask men in particular to maybe do something that it is in their power to do i.e. have a word with friends that are out of line. It might be simplistic and not do anything or it may contribute to a nicer society in general. However by asking men to do it, it does target one particular gender, so is that inherently sexist, when its not prejoritive?


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    #201
    Wendolene
    Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭Wendolene


    Nathanael Jolly Barmaid wrote: »
    If she is genuine this whole thing has back-fired on her.

    That depends on her motivation. I'm struggling to see this as anything more than a self-promoting piece underscored by selfish motivation ... in which case she may see it as successful.
    Nathanael Jolly Barmaid wrote: »
    If a person wants other people to help them fight a cause they should encourage those people, not insult them. By insulting a large section of society she has destroyed any intelligent message she have to express.

    I'm quite sure the Garda Commissioner will have been taken more than a little bit aback. Oh the cheek of him to advise women on their safety ... em ... get men off the hook. :eek:
    Nathanael Jolly Barmaid wrote: »
    I'm sure most men that read that article thought, like us here, how insulting, sexist and silly the article is. The whole topic of rape has gotten lost through all that noise.

    In a nutshell, that's the most disappointing result for me - the generation of unhelpful, uninforming and misleading noise around, what is, a very serious topic.
    Nathanael Jolly Barmaid wrote: »
    Still, if she or the editor had thought about the article they would have possibly noticed that before it got published.

    Well, again, it depends on what the motivation was - on the editor's part as well as the author's. Was this a considered effort to throw a muck piece out as a reasoned treatise on a particular matter? Again, I smell aroma of Daily Mail :rolleyes:


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    #202
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    SeventySix wrote: »
    I, definitely did say that it was unlikely that a misogynist would listen to a woman if she was telling him his behaviour was out of line. I never said she shouldnt say it, just that he might not listen. I have never said that all rapists are misogynists but that misogynists treat women with disrespect and it would be worth the effort for a man that the misogynist does respect to tell him its not on.
    Now, come on. You say a woman would not be listened to by a misogynist and thus only men should intervene, without a single qualification. How much stronger do you think it would be possible for you to imply that it's 'a man's job'?
    I thought that given everyone seems to have the same opinion of the article, that the discussion had broadened in to whether its is always unreasonable to ask men in particular to maybe do something that it is in their power to do i.e. have a word with friends that are out of line.
    Another presumption, that anyone, man or woman, would have it in their power to do something. Unless you hadn't noticed, people do what they want and if they're going to do something that they want which isn't nice, they'll not share it with others so as to avoid social exclusion.

    Contrary to the author of the article's belief, men don't happily boast to each other about rape, or many other things. She suggested that we may 'suspect' a "wayward" friend, but let's be honest; do you really think that a lap dance or even going to a prostitute is a red flag for rapist in waiting? If you do, I'm afraid you've gone down the feminist rabbit hole, where all men are a hairs-breath away from becoming uncontrollable sex-fiends.

    I'm afraid your entire thesis is flawed even before consider how chauvinist it is.
    However by asking men to do it, it does target one particular gender, so is that inherently sexist, when its not prejoritive?
    Then let's suggest that women should stay at home and do the housework? Makes more sense as they're more likely to stay at home to take care of children anyway, and sure don't men earn more on average too?

    But don't let the fact that I've not suggested that men could also stay at home and do the housework instead give you the wrong impression - naturally I meant men too, I just decided to suggest that only women do so...

    If at this stage the penny isn't dropping for you on what you've argued, I'm not sure what I can do for you, TBH.


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    #203
    tommyboy2222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭tommyboy2222


    Una Mulally on Davenport After Dark on Newstalk right now.

    I think they are going to discuss her article.


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    #204
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    If at this stage the penny isn't dropping for you on what you've argued, I'm not sure what I can do for you, TBH.

    Mod note - "attack the post not the poster" (per charter) - all opinions are welcome here


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    #205
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    tommyboy2222 wrote: »
    Una Mulally on Davenport After Dark on Newstalk right now.

    I think they are going to discuss her article.

    God, listen to the crap. "Women are told to shut up". Men basically don't like women voicing their opinions.

    "men experience less gender criticism" Good lord.

    "The majority of women have experienced sexual assault", what she doesn't realise is a lot of men have to. The whole groping in the club thing is something men have experienced too. God this woman makes my blood boil, even the male host is pandering to this nonsense.


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    #206
    john locke
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭john locke


    I can't listen to her anymore!


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    #207
    tommyboy2222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭tommyboy2222


    It's hilarious. She went on an epic rant just before the news there for about 3 minutes.

    She has huge issues with men.

    It's a shame the men on the panel are afraid to call her on her nonsense.


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    #208
    Panthro
    Registered Users Posts: 14,802 ✭✭✭✭Panthro


    Good choice of song in between her rants though..."I wish someone would care"...you troll Mr Davenport!:D


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    #209
    john locke
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭john locke


    boards just got a mention!

    She's loving the publicity


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    #210
    Panthro
    Registered Users Posts: 14,802 ✭✭✭✭Panthro


    john locke wrote: »
    boards just got a mention!

    She's loving the publicity
    Wonder who sent that text in..
    Hehehee.....:P


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    #211
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    john locke wrote: »
    boards just got a mention!

    She's loving the publicity

    Did she quote me and the other misogynists here?:rolleyes:


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