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Is a landlord allowed retain copies of keys?

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    #2
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), landlord doesn't have the right to keep a key to the property. He also doesn't have the right to enter it, unless agreed with the tenant.

    Althought the links below doesn't specifically say whether LL is allowed to keep the keys or not, from my own experience (having a LL entering the property unanonced in the past) that's what Threshold folks told me

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html
    http://www.threshold.ie/advice/tenancy-issues/entry-without-permission/
    Unless there is an agreement to the contrary or it is an emergency, a landlord should not call to the property unannounced or enter the property without your permission.


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    #3
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), landlord doesn't have the right to keep a key to the property. He also doesn't have the right to enter it, unless agreed with the tenant.

    Althought the links below doesn't specifically say whether LL is allowed to keep the keys or not, from my own experience (having a LL entering the property unanonced in the past) that's what Threshold folks told me

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html
    http://www.threshold.ie/advice/tenancy-issues/entry-without-permission/

    the landlord absolutely has the right to a key to his property !!

    Furthermore the tenant has no rights to change the locks or modify the property in anyway without permission to do so. So the landlord will be entitled to deduct from the deposit any costs incurred to put the property back to the way it was.

    you are correct however the landlord may not enter the property without permission from the tenant unless it is an emergency, flooding, gas leak etc


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    #4
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    the landlord absolutely has the right to a key to his property !!
    I'd love to see a definitive piece of legislation to confirm that, I'm only sharing what I've been told myself.


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    #5
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    I'd love to see a definitive piece of legislation to confirm that, I'm only sharing what I've been told myself.

    you wont find legislative wording to that effect.

    what you will see if that the tenant is not entitled to modify the property without permission. Now given that the LL will have a spare key to his property and the locks cannot be changed without permission defacto the LL is entitled to a key to his property


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    #6
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    Now given that the LL will have a spare key to his property
    this is the bit I'm talking about. according to Threshold neither LL or the Agency acting on their behalf can keep a spare key. I'll shoot them an email about that, will report back.


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    #7
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    this is the bit I'm talking about. according to Threshold neither LL or the Agency acting on their behalf can keep a spare key. I'll shoot them an email about that, will report back.

    To be honest with you if you rely on what Threshold have to say then half of what you will know about renting will be wrong.


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    #8
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    Well that's a bold statement I must say. Any chance you can confirm what you say?


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    #9
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    Well that's a bold statement I must say. Any chance you can confirm what you say?


    Its not really a bold statement at all. Search threads on this forum. There are dozens of them were the person in Threshold has given out the wrong advise to posters here.

    Its outrageous but a fact.


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    #10
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    I took my time and backed up some of the fact with links for you to review. I don't understand why should I now take your word for granted and look up somewhere to confirm anything.
    So unless you can back it up somehow I don't think of this as a "fact", at this time is pure speculation.


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    #11
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭whippet


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    I'd love to see a definitive piece of legislation to confirm that, I'm only sharing what I've been told myself.

    It doesn't need legislation to determine that the owner of a property is entitled to a key to said property.


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    #12
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    According to the links I posted earlier, you have a right to entry when there's an emergency, it doesn't explicitly say you're entitled to keep a key.


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    #13
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    this is the bit I'm talking about. according to Threshold neither LL or the Agency acting on their behalf can keep a spare key. I'll shoot them an email about that, will report back.

    The landlord is legally entitled to enter the property unannounced in case of an emergency (a reported water leak, gas leak etc). Im not aware of anything in law that states that a landlord is not permitted to hold a key to the property, but if you post something that says otherwise then Im happy to be proven wrong.

    As for Threshold, I dont have a lot of confidence in what they say a lot of time, having been told things by them that are questionable at best, or having had conversations with them where they dont seem to know a lot of the basics. They love to use the phrase "in our opinion..." a lot of noticed, which doesnt exactly inspire confidence!


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    #14
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    whippet wrote: »
    It doesn't need legislation to determine that the owner of a property is entitled to a key to said property.

    You forgot about the fact that a leased house becomes a home to the tenant.


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    #15
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    You forgot about the fact that a leased house becomes a home to the tenant.

    It becomes the home of the tenant (hence the law that the landlord cannot enter unannounced) but it never becomes their property. I doubt very much that any law exists that states that a property owner is not allowed to retain a key to their own property.


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    #16
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    djimi wrote: »
    The landlord is legally entitled to enter the property unannounced in case of an emergency (a reported water leak, gas leak etc). Im not aware of anything in law that states that a landlord is not permitted to hold a key to the property, but if you post something that says otherwise then Im happy to be proven wrong.

    As for Threshold, I dont have a lot of confidence in what they say a lot of time, having been told things by them that are questionable at best, or having had conversations with them where they dont seem to know a lot of the basics. They love to use the phrase "in our opinion..." a lot of noticed, which doesnt exactly inspire confidence!

    To enter unannounced - yes. Gardai and other emergency services has the same right to enter unannounced yet that doesn't imply they need a key to the property.
    Just saying...
    I know it sounds reasonable, but that doesn't mean it's the law.


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    #17
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    Well that's a bold statement I must say. Any chance you can confirm what you say?

    If you think about it, it would be utterly ludicrous for the landlord to be forbidden from keeping a spare key to their own property. There are rules guaranteeing the tenant's exclusive and private use of the property in place, but the landlord is allowed access under specific circumstances, most normally to examine the property at a mutually agreed time (which does not have to be when the tenant is present).

    If you were told that the landlord has to give up all copies of the keys for a property that they own to every tenant then you've been misled.


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    #18
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    You forgot about the fact that a leased house becomes a home to the tenant.

    Whats that got to do with it?

    The landlord holds a key before the tenant moves in, if he is specifically required to destroy it surely this is mentioned in legislation somewhere?


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    #19
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    Who say anything about destroying the key?


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    #20
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    Who say anything about destroying the key?

    Enlighten us. Whats he supposed to do with the key? How could you possibly verify what he does with the key?


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    #21
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    Zillah wrote: »
    If you think about it, it would be utterly ludicrous for the landlord to be forbidden from keeping a spare key to their own property. There are rules guaranteeing the tenant's exclusive and private use of the property in place, but the landlord is allowed access under specific circumstances, most normally to examine the property at a mutually agreed time (which does not have to be when the tenant is present).

    If you were told that the landlord has to give up all copies of the keys for a property that they own to every tenant then you've been misled.

    But of course it would! And there is ludicrous legislation I know of. So unless someone comes back with a definitive confirmation I don't see how are any of us in wrong discussing it.


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    #22
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    drumswan wrote: »
    Enlighten us. Whats he supposed to do with the key? How could you possibly verify what he does with the key?

    I don't know, maybe give it to the tenant. That actually makes sense, doesn't it?


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    #23
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    To enter unannounced - yes. Gardai and other emergency services has the same right to enter unannounced yet that doesn't imply they need a key to the property.
    Just saying...
    I know it sounds reasonable, but that doesn't mean it's the law.

    Youre going to have to back this arguement up with some kind of proof if youre going to convince Im afraid! I think you have gotten the wrong end of the stick regarding this, but as I said Im happy to be proven wrong.


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    #24
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    I don't know, maybe give it to the tenant. That actually makes sense, doesn't it?
    No it doesnt. What happens if the tenant dies, or leaves the country? Think about what you are saying.


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    #25
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    I might, but for you to convince me you will need to prove your version is correct. :)


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    #26
    fl4pj4ck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭fl4pj4ck


    drumswan wrote: »
    No it doesnt. What happens if the tenant dies, or leaves the country? Think about what you are saying.

    I think this constitutes as "emergency" in my dictionary.

    (got to go guys, be back later)


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    #27
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    I might, but for you to convince me you will need to prove your version is correct. :)

    You made the initial statement; its up to you to back up your claim ;)


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    #28
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    I might, but for you to convince me you will need to prove your version is correct. :)

    Out of curiosity, can you prove your version of the law?


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    #29
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    I think this constitutes as "emergency" in my dictionary.

    (got to go guys, be back later)

    But the landlord hasnt got a key now, how does he enter in an emergency where the tenant cant open the door.........


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    #30
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    fl4pj4ck wrote: »
    But of course it would! And there is ludicrous legislation I know of. So unless someone comes back with a definitive confirmation I don't see how are any of us in wrong discussing it.

    Everything is allowed unless legislation forbids it. You're the one making the ridiculous assertion that a landlord is not allowed to keep a key to the property that they own, the burden of proof is on you to show where that is forbidden in law.

    You won't find it, though, because it doesn't exist, because it's an idiotic notion based on nothing, and for some reason you expect us to prove it to you. It doesn't make sense from a practical point of view, it doesn't fit with the spirit of tenancy legislation, it would be completely redundant considering that the tenant's rights are protected in other ways anyway, and it conflicts with everyone's experience of renting where the landlord always has their own key to their property. You're incredibly wrong and everyone sees it except you.


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    #31
    kingtiger
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭kingtiger


    yep Ziilah bang on the money there

    as I said earlier its in the lease agreement that the tenant signed

    that they cannot alter any locks with landlord consent

    an how am I meant to exact emergency repair if I don't have a key?

    so if the tenant has broken the lease agreement can I evict them for this?


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