Bad vibe after All Ireland Senior Football Final?

Hitchens

........between Jim Gavin and James Horan. They seemed to be two quiet enough men as managers of two high profile teams.

Is there a professional type of vista beginning to enter the amateur ethos of the GAA?

James Horan's reply to what Jim Gavin said in his interview:

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=201571

keeponhurling

Not really.
Some of the negativity at the end wasn't nice, but Horan admitted that all teams would have done the same.

Gavin,s comments were truly bizarre, so for Horan to call them amazing is probably just answering a question honestly

Stoner

I think Gavin should have just kept quiet. I also think Horan shouldn't have brought the ref issue up again before this match, maybe it's all the one issue, it's silly stuff.

ProudDUB

Davy Fitz must hate it that all the managerial attention is not on him. Poor lamb !

Donnielighto

Stoner wrote: »

I think Gavin should have just kept quiet. I also think Horan shouldn't have brought the ref issue up again before this match, maybe it's all the one issue, it's silly stuff.

Didnt realise he did, what did he say?

Stoner

Donnielighto wrote: »

Didnt realise he did, what did he say?

Dublin played 16 men, unbalanced free count etc

premierstone

Horan did nothing wrong IMO he was asked about Gavin's comments so it wasn't a case of him bringing it up, I found Gavin's comments utterly bizzare and in bad taste tbh, although one has to say completly out of character.

Donnielighto

Stoner wrote: »

Dublin played 16 men, unbalanced free count etc

Cheers, absolute muck though. Dublin were horrificly undisiplined.

There should be more yellows for cynical fouling from the start of games, cumulative yellows should cause a team to lose a player, say the 5th yellow for a team that player walks.

Bringin the game into disrepute is an avenue for arbirtray reds isnt it. Really think refs should be given more leeway for that kinda stuff. Mind you I think big hits that are legal get pulled up way too often, shoulder tackles dont have to be sidee on as the shoulder covers a chunk of flesh not just the skin on the outside of the upper arm. (pet peeve)

Hitchens

Donnielighto wrote: »

I think big hits that are legal get pulled up way too often, shoulder tackles dont have to be sidee on as the shoulder covers a chunk of flesh not just the skin on the outside of the upper arm. (pet peeve)

Completely agree with that

yop

Donnielighto wrote: »

There should be more yellows for cynical fouling from the start of games, cumulative yellows should cause a team to lose a player, say the 5th yellow for a team that player walks.

Isn't the black book going to stop this? I remember they did a review of one of the semis and how many blacks would have been given out etc.
Would be interesting to see the same for last Sunday

wirelessdude01

Find it strange that Gavin would even be bothered about bringing it up except that he is laying the foundation for his team being looked after next year. I saw some stats the other day about all the Dublin champ games this year and apart from the final and one other game they were pretty much even. Have to say that I did think there were some fairly easy/soft frees given out at times and also there were a few instances where play should have been allowed to continue as the team had retained possession.

Two things that bugged the hell out of me directly after the game were the way the Dublin players continuously body checked/stopped Vaughan from going forward. He is a major plank for the Mayo offloading game and once this was stopped Kev Mc had no one to offload to and then had to check his run and a good few times go backwards. Also hated the way a good few times after Dublin committed fouls they held the Mayo player down so as to stop the quick free.

Donnielighto

yop wrote: »

Isn't the black book going to stop this? I remember they did a review of one of the semis and how many blacks would have been given out etc.
Would be interesting to see the same for last Sunday

Nope, it'll be used as a form of subsitution, completely toothless measure to deal with the biggest single issue affecting the game on the field. (off field stuff not included)

yop

Donnielighto wrote: »

Nope, it'll be used as a form of subsitution, completely toothless measure to deal with the biggest single issue affecting the game on the field. (off field stuff not included)

Its a cop out then if thats the case. We did it against Dublin last year and they did it against us last Sunday, Tyrone did it and I am sure it has occurred all over the shop.
Probably 50% of it last Sunday occurred off the ball and only the linesman could have picked it up. Even in the minor game it was rife.

If they get 3 blacks though they can't sub a player in.

Donnielighto

yop wrote: »

Its a cop out then if thats the case. We did it against Dublin last year and they did it against us last Sunday, Tyrone did it and I am sure it has occurred all over the shop.
Probably 50% of it last Sunday occurred off the ball and only the linesman could have picked it up. Even in the minor game it was rife.

If they get 3 blacks though they can't sub a player in.

thats fair enough but id say itll be a case of the ref giving yellows and 2 blacks until the very end of a game if even. I have very little faith in the GAA to implement a system that works for football, it will be abused.

Dubliner28

Both were probably frustrated. Dublin with frees given again them for a fair hard shoulders, Brogan/Andrews getting dragged out of it off the ball and Horan for some of the late tactical fouls by Dublin ala Mayo in the semi final last year.
Met a lot of Mayo fans afterwards who agreed that the wides and the failure to score from play in the last 50mins was a big factor in losing the game and another final and this frustration has gotten the better of a few people in Mayo(like the county board chairman's silly comments last night)

Don't think its personal just a lot of recent history in games between the two, it will all die down come Mon/Tues next week

yop

Dubliner28 wrote: »

Both were probably frustrated. Dublin with frees given again them for a fair hard shoulders, Brogan/Andrews getting dragged out of it off the ball and Horan for some of the late tactical fouls by Dublin ala Mayo in the semi final last year.
Met a lot of Mayo fans afterwards who agreed that the wides and the failure to score from play in the last 50mins was a big factor in losing the game and another final and this frustration has gotten the better of a few people in Mayo(like the county board chairman's silly comments last night)

Don't think its personal just a lot of recent history in games between the two, it will all die down come Mon/Tues next week

Exactly, in this one we have only ourselves to blame.

Quixoticelixer

I doubt there's any issue between Gavin and Horan. Gavin's comments were somewhat odd to say the least, I think it comes from a refusal to admit that his team employed negative tactics at times, he has been critical of this type of thing in the past. Horan's response is 100% fair.

Gavin's just trying to deflect the blame for the high free count away from his players onto the referee, which is a low blow to be honest.

Not having a go at Dublin's tactics, we've seen far worse, they just did what they needed to do. I heard Andy Moran on the radio yesterday saying they would have done the exact same thing in Dublin's position.

dealornodeal23

Donnielighto wrote: »

Cheers, absolute muck though. Dublin were horrificly undisiplined.

There should be more yellows for cynical fouling from the start of games, cumulative yellows should cause a team to lose a player, say the 5th yellow for a team that player walks.

Bringin the game into disrepute is an avenue for arbirtray reds isnt it. Really think refs should be given more leeway for that kinda stuff. Mind you I think big hits that are legal get pulled up way too often, shoulder tackles dont have to be sidee on as the shoulder covers a chunk of flesh not just the skin on the outside of the upper arm. (pet peeve)

well said also they were so disrespectful not to complete the parade behind the Artane boys band i think alot of the repect went since gavin took over bring back Gilroy!!!

Blizzard 2010

Dubliner28 wrote: »

Both were probably frustrated. Dublin with frees given again them for a fair hard shoulders, Brogan/Andrews getting dragged out of it off the ball and Horan for some of the late tactical fouls by Dublin ala Mayo in the semi final last year.
Met a lot of Mayo fans afterwards who agreed that the wides and the failure to score from play in the last 50mins was a big factor in losing the game and another final and this frustration has gotten the better of a few people in Mayo(like the county board chairman's silly comments last night)

Don't think its personal just a lot of recent history in games between the two, it will all die down come Mon/Tues next week

Plus Mayo lacked the killer instinct. It took them 30 seconds to score a point instead of going for goal. Mayo can only blame themselves

bohsboy

Have to laugh at the accusation that Dublin employed negative tactics for the last few minutes. What did you expect, allow Mayo players to waltz by them unchallenged? They would never be forgiven for letting a player by them to score the winner for Mayo. That's sport, soccer players will bring it into the corner flag or take a tactical yellow to slow the game down. Every single club or county team would have done the same at that critical stage of the season.

Short memories Mayo have too of their second half display in last years semi against Dublin when they systematically went down injured after every challenge and rolled around. The physio was only short of taking a pass at one stage.

wow sierra

Interesting discussion on Gavin on Second Captains - about him selling the image of the Dublin team so well. Constantly saying about the open expansive positive style etc. And this was something really pushed in the Media too - with all the negative comment about Tyrone. Tyrone were far from as cynical as portrayed and Dublin could be cynical when necessary. This can affect a refs attitude to a team.

I thought Gavins comments about the Ref Sunday were totally rediculous - but maybe it is all about keeping the myth alive that his lads do nothing that a ref should be on the lookout for.

ThunbergsAreGo

There were a few off the ball and third man tackles on both teams. Mayo had one brilliant one in the second half completly took a Dublin defender out of it when he was moving towards the man in possession. Would have been a free in Rugby but it was done so well no free was given.

McQuillan was poor, for both sides, but worse towards Dublin (though we all think are own teams are hard done by )

Agree, will all be forgotten

wirelessdude01

naughtb4 wrote: »

There were a few off the ball and third man tackles on both teams. Mayo had one brilliant one in the second half completly took a Dublin defender out of it when he was moving towards the man in possession. Would have been a free in Rugby but it was done so well no free was given.

Don't say it was the one involving Cooper?

Billy Mays

I'll agree Dublin were cynical towards the end of the game but Gavin is completely right about the referee. I was at the game on Sunday and thought at the time he gave Mayo a lot of soft frees. Watched the game again yesterday and nothing I saw changed my mind. Any time a Mayo player seemed to get bottled up in possession he'd get a free, the same thing would happen to a Dublin player and he'd be penalised for over-carrying.

ThunbergsAreGo

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Don't say it was the one involving Cooper?

Cant remember would need to watch back. Not sure it was on caught on camera, only noticed it when i was there. Was second half about 10 in AFAIK

wirelessdude01

naughtb4 wrote: »

Cant remember would need to watch back. Not sure it was on caught on camera, only noticed it when i was there. Was second half about 10 in AFAIK

Prob the Cooper incident then. The camera behind the goal showed it. Cooper turned and ran straight into Andy Moran. Neither saw the other. Woeful clash of heads.

ThunbergsAreGo

Ah no there was no clash of heads, it was an intentional check (It would be called obstruction more than a check tbh) alright.

Anyways, whatever happened is neither here nor there

wirelessdude01

naughtb4 wrote: »

Ah no there was no clash of heads, it was an intentional check (It would be called obstruction more than a check tbh) alright.

Anyways, whatever happened is neither here nor there

If it is the Cooper incident then it was a clash of heads.

Either way the Dublin half-forward line seemed to spend the first half determined to stop the Mayo half-back line from going forward. Donie Vaughan was stopped at least 5-6 times in a 10min period. Connollys shirt was ripped when he had Keegan in a headlock to stop him running into space for a kickout. Stopped watching it then as I was amazed that the ref and/or linesmen didn't pick up on it.

Ace2007

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

If it is the Cooper incident then it was a clash of heads.

Either way the Dublin half-forward line seemed to spend the first half determined to stop the Mayo half-back line from going forward. Donie Vaughan was stopped at least 5-6 times in a 10min period. Connollys shirt was ripped when he had Keegan in a headlock to stop him running into space for a kickout. Stopped watching it then as I was amazed that the ref and/or linesmen didn't pick up on it.

Did you notice the Mayo lads doing in to Dublin as well?

aveytare

Does anyone have any idea where I could watch the full match again? I'm from the black North so I can't watch it on the rte website - might be outta luck.

sid waddell

Billy Mays wrote: »

I'll agree Dublin were cynical towards the end of the game but Gavin is completely right about the referee. I was at the game on Sunday and thought at the time he gave Mayo a lot of soft frees. Watched the game again yesterday and nothing I saw changed my mind. Any time a Mayo player seemed to get bottled up in possession he'd get a free, the same thing would happen to a Dublin player and he'd be penalised for over-carrying.

As a Dublin supporter I strongly disagree with this. Dublin did foul more. 32-12 was the actual count, but I made it 36-13.

The notion that Dublin were in any way hard done by by McQuillan is simply wrong, and Jim Gavin's comments were a disappointment to me.

Blizzard 2010

aveytare wrote: »

Does anyone have any idea where I could watch the full match again? I'm from the black North so I can't watch it on the rte website - might be outta luck.

Most likely you tube

Ace2007

sid waddell wrote: »

As a Dublin supporter I strongly disagree with this. Dublin did foul more. 32-12 was the actual count, but I made it 36-13.

The notion that Dublin were in any way hard done by by McQuillan is simply wrong, and Jim Gavin's comments were a disappointment to me.

So you were keeping count while at the match?

sid waddell

Ace2007 wrote: »

So you were keeping count while at the match?

I watched the match back twice, looked at every incident, and kept count.

Ace2007

sid waddell wrote: »

I watched the match back twice, looked at every incident, and kept count.

So did you see all the off ball/off camera fouls and keep count of them?

sid waddell

Ace2007 wrote: »

So did you see all the off ball/off camera fouls and keep count of them?

Did you?

Ace2007

sid waddell wrote: »

Did you?

Yes I was at the game, and saw what went on, and saw what the ref didn't give free's for - it's easy to sit at home and go by the stats and what the camera shows.

If you lose and blame the ref - people say look at your own performance.

and then when you speak out about how bad the ref is when you win - your told to stfu basically cause you won.

If there were 2 Ref's in a game it might work better.

sid waddell

Ace2007 wrote: »

Yes I was at the game, and saw what went on, and saw what the ref didn't give free's for - it's easy to sit at home and go by the stats and what the camera shows.

If you lose and blame the ref - people say look at your own performance.

and then when you speak out about how bad the ref is when you win - your told to stfu basically cause you won.

If there were 2 Ref's in a game it might work better.

I was at the game and didn't see anything out of the ordinary in terms of off the ball stuff.

I'd be a supporter of two referees simply because I think it would increase the chances of having less errors.

But that would be almost impossible to implement at club level where it's difficult enough to get one referee.

wirelessdude01

Ace2007 wrote: »

Did you notice the Mayo lads doing in to Dublin as well?

Apart from the O'Shea brothers and Andy Moran our lads aren't really all that big and can't really bully people. That is part of our problem with regards to closing out the big games.


Well at least our manager doesn't sprout nonsense to the media then about not being cynical. Gavin let himself down with the comments. Watched the game back last night and there could be a 3/4 free swing in favour of either team but the count would still be hugely in favour of Mayo. Now if the ref is as bad as Gavin is making out then he won't even get an u12's game again never mind an AI final.

jack presley

sid waddell wrote: »

I watched the match back twice, looked at every incident, and kept count.

Did you subtract one off your Dublin score for the O'Carroll shoulder that got him the yellow card?

wirelessdude01

jack presley wrote: »

Did you subtract one off your Dublin score for the O'Carroll shoulder that got him the yellow card?

In real time it looked worse than it was. Two refs might have made a difference with that.

jack presley

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

In real time it looked worse than it was. Two refs might have made a difference with that.

Yeah I know. I'm just curious as to whether it was 1 of the 36 that Sid included in his count. He did watch the game more than once

harpsman

bohsboy wrote: »

Have to laugh at the accusation that Dublin employed negative tactics for the last few minutes. What did you expect, allow Mayo players to waltz by them unchallenged? They would never be forgiven for letting a player by them to score the winner for Mayo. That's sport, soccer players will bring it into the corner flag or take a tactical yellow to slow the game down. Every single club or county team would have done the same at that critical stage of the season.

Short memories Mayo have too of their second half display in last years semi against Dublin when they systematically went down injured after every challenge and rolled around. The physio was only short of taking a pass at one stage.

There are other options-how about just tackling??

PRAF

Billy Mays wrote: »

I'll agree Dublin were cynical towards the end of the game but Gavin is completely right about the referee. I was at the game on Sunday and thought at the time he gave Mayo a lot of soft frees. Watched the game again yesterday and nothing I saw changed my mind. Any time a Mayo player seemed to get bottled up in possession he'd get a free, the same thing would happen to a Dublin player and he'd be penalised for over-carrying.

One of my pet peevs in GAA is forwards running into tackles and then going to ground too easily. Mayo seemed to get a lot of those soft frees on Sunday.

On the other hand, I'd see Brogan or Andrews being pulled back at times and they were being done for over-carrying.

IMO there was no way Dublin were 3 times as dirty as Mayo during the game. Where I'd disagree with Gavin is that there is any suspicion of bias from the ref against the Dubs. I suspect that the Mayo forwards were just a bit cuter when it came to winning frees.

If there was any bias, perhaps it was just in 50:50 challenges, the ref was more likely to give a free for the smaller forward than for the bigger defender.

yop

So Dublin lads think the ref was soft on Mayo and Mayo lads think that the ref was soft on Dublin, thats about right then

Fr Tod Umptious

I think what is most interesting is what Gavin said prior to the game about stepping back if his team were cynical

Taken from the Irish Independent

"I would be loath to think that if anyone said this Dublin team is cynical, you know, I'd take a step back if that was the case. I certainly wouldn't tolerate it from them and they know that as well,"

I think that is the most idiotic statement of all, in this day and age where cynicism is a huge talking point why leave yourself so open to accusations of hypocrisy with a statement like that. And Horan rightly accused him of that hypocrisy

The majority of manager are at least honest about it, and say 'yea we would be as cynical as the next guy if we needed to be'

yop

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think what is most interesting is what Gavin said prior to the game about stepping back if his team were cynical

Taken from the Irish Independent


I think that is the most idiotic statement of all, in this day and age where cynicism is a huge talking point why leave yourself so open to accusations of hypocrisy with a statement like that. And Horan rightly accused him of that hypocrisy

The majority of manager are at least honest about it, and say 'yea we would be as cynical as the next guy if we needed to be'

Well thats a daft statement then from him!!! So when is he stepping down?

Godge

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

If it is the Cooper incident then it was a clash of heads.

Either way the Dublin half-forward line seemed to spend the first half determined to stop the Mayo half-back line from going forward. Donie Vaughan was stopped at least 5-6 times in a 10min period. Connollys shirt was ripped when he had Keegan in a headlock to stop him running into space for a kickout. Stopped watching it then as I was amazed that the ref and/or linesmen didn't pick up on it.

It wasn't the Cooper incident.

There was a lot of cynicism on display well before the last 10 minutes.

Dublin had a number of shirts ripped by jersey pulling. Up until the time he went off, Paul Mannion never got more than a jersey pull distance away from his marker. The reason O'Gara created havoc was because he was stronger than the other Dublin forwards and could break away from the pulling, dragging and jersey-grabbing.

None of this is the fault of Dublin, Mayo or the referee. What Dublin, Kerry and Mayo have done this year is upped the pace of movement of the ball and players. Referees cannot keep up. They are having to judge penalty incidents from 40 yards away. For example if, for Brogan's first goal, had there been a push in the back by either defender or attacker, the referee would have had no chance of spotting it and would have relied on his umpires to say something and we all know that wouldn't happen.

Past30Now

jack presley wrote: »

Did you subtract one off your Dublin score for the O'Carroll shoulder that got him the yellow card?

Given that a player was concussed after the incident, then it doesn't really qualify as a fair shoulder. Clearly there was more contact than shoulder to shoulder. The fact that the aggressor came of worse doesn't make it any less dangerous.

Donnielighto

Neutral here, on border with Mayo but family from from Dublin.

Dublin were very cynical and Gavin's statement after the game acnt really be stood behind truthfully. Mayo have never been a cynical team in my time watchin the sport.

Tbf though it's what you expect from a few of the dublin lads and that isnt the end of the world as they have other fellas who are good enough footballers to not need that. Gavins comments about not allowing any player of his to carry on like that was manure and he didnt have to say it so it was trying to lead refs on. I like a lot of dublin players. I like the game being tough but it's this gamesmanship crap that is being encouraged by some managers that is hugely destructive to the game and thier duty of care to the sport. I hope Gavins legacy is mangled at some stage, not the players (bar maybe connolly and kevin mcm).

Terrible carry on. Black card system will suit them too. Watch next year, gavin will use the black cards for his subs and he'll be using them for red card offences, dirt.

Godge

Past30Now wrote: »

Given that a player was concussed after the incident, then it doesn't really qualify as a fair shoulder. Clearly there was more contact than shoulder to shoulder. The fact that the aggressor came of worse doesn't make it any less dangerous.

Seeing as the referee, the media and posters such as yourself have painted Dublin as the aggressors, it is actually quite strange to see how many of those so-called aggressors suffered as a result of their aggression. By my count, Mannion, O'Gara, O'Carroll, McCauley, O'Sullivan, McMahon all suffered injuries during the game, mustn't pay to be an aggressor?

O'Gara, now that is an interesting one. Not sure how that injury occurred but he is clearly taken out late in the build-up to the second goal having made his pass. Wasn't the first time that Mayo went in late or engaged in third-man tackles in the game.