Bad vibe after All Ireland Senior Football Final?

Slattsy

yop wrote: »

And Mayo fans didn't say it wasn't either. Plenty of fans from Donegal, Dublin and Mayo will say their teams weren't cynical and on the flip plenty will say they were.
As was the last 10 minutes of the game last Sunday was just as "shocking" so Dublin can't take the high horse on this either, yet the manager said he would walk away.. he hasn't walked away though has he???

Your trying to slate Mayo for something that Dublin did last Sunday, while proclaiming that Mayo fans are saying we aren't. As I said plenty of Mayo fans on here saying we were cynical, so your point is kinda dead in the water.

Read it again. Where did i say Dublin were not cynical?
I never said Mayo fans were being anything other than honest in admitting the cynical side to that game.
Then i said there wasnt as much uproar ie thread starting about it.
As for a point being dead in the water, it was yours.

Slattsy

premierstone wrote: »

What?? You asked why there wasn't a thread opened last year slating Mayo for been cynical. Well firstly there wasn't one opened this year about Dublin either so I'm not sure what your point was and secondly if you were refering to this thread, it was not opened to talk about Dublins cynical play in the closing stages, it was opened as a result of Jim Gavin coming out with a complete off the wall, although out of character, load of waffle about Dublin having bet both Mayo and the referee.

On a side note GAA players who were unhappy a number of years ago with how they were been treated and used as pawns established the GPA which is in effect a players union, I think if I was an inter-county referee I would be looking strongly into establishing something similar for referees. Jim Gavin -and many before him- should not be allowed, on national television no less, to question Joe McQuillan's integrity like that, its slander.

Gavin should have kept his mouth shut, big time. No doubt about it.
He should have said nowt about McQuillan also. (even though he was poor) There was no need, and both his comments surprised me, as he's normally extremely reserved, and anyone that has seen/read his pre/post match comments or interviews would agree.
Heat of moment/emotions maybe? But it was surprising.
Dublin were cynical in the last 7 minutes, not many Dubs are arguing this.
There's no way this Dublin team were given instructions before any game to be cynical. But in the last few minutes of an AI, it'd be very hard for any player to let an opposing player run by him freely.

The black card will hopefully sort all this out.

premierstone

Slattsy wrote: »

Gavin should have kept his mouth shut, big time. No doubt about it.
He should have said nowt about McQuillan also. (even though he was poor) There was no need, and both his comments surprised me, as he's normally extremely reserved, and anyone that has seen/read his pre/post match comments or interviews would agree.
Heat of moment/emotions maybe? But it was surprising.
Dublin were cynical in the last 7 minutes, not many Dubs are arguing this.
There's no way this Dublin team were given instructions before any game to be cynical. But in the last few minutes of an AI, it'd be very hard for any player to let an opposing player run by him freely.

The black card will hopefully sort all this out.

Agree with everything here to be fair, I do think though when someone like Jim Gavin is making accusations like that against a referee, a fellow amatuer and volunteer remember, and in the aftermath of actually winning an AI, then there is something very wrong and we are heading down a slippery road IMO.

listermint

premierstone wrote: »

Agree with everything here to be fair, I do think though when someone like Jim Gavin is making accusations like that against a referee, a fellow amatuer and volunteer remember, and in the aftermath of actually winning an AI, then there is something very wrong and we are heading down a slippery road IMO.

Slippery road of what ? a manager speaking his mind after an adrenalin fuelled football final. lol

At least its not sanitised tripe that you here in other sports, id prefer if 'all' managers spoke their minds rightly or wrongly.

wirelessdude01

Cute managers will use the black card to give them an extra three subs to use through the game as required. You can be sure that the top level managers are already devising ways to manipulate the new rules.

yop

Slattsy wrote: »

Read it again. Where did i say Dublin were not cynical?
I never said Mayo fans were being anything other than honest in admitting the cynical side to that game.
Then i said there wasnt as much uproar ie thread starting about it.
As for a point being dead in the water, it was yours.

Sorry I re-read what you said, it was the rest of the country you were on about, not Mayo.
Thats up to them to be honest, not sure why it wasn't pointed out, though I am sure it was or should have been said.
I would have done it myself, its a part and sad aspect of the game but unless they start sending players off for it, its going to be there.

Donnielighto

PRAF wrote: »

What's ridiculous is trying to claim that I made a direct comparison between a shoulder challenge in GAA and a spear tackle in rugby. I didn't. I included the spear (as well as a fairly normal tackle in soccer which you ignored) as an example to illustrate that there is a limit to the 'hard but fair' argument. It is up to the rulemakers in each sport as well as the refs that police them) to determine where those limits are. The ref decided it was a yellow and I agree with him on that.

The rulemakers need to continually review the rules and determine if they need to be updated. This happens in every sport. When the rules were originally devised an average shoulder to shoulder challenge probably involved two guys about 5 foot 9, weighing about 10 stone, colliding into eachother from about 3 yards apart. Nowadays it could be a 6 foot 4, 15 stone collossus coming at you at full pelt from 10 yards away. The impacts and the potential damage have increased. As such, it is only reasonable in my opinion that the rulemakers and refs look at this.

Concussions, breaks, injuries can happen as a result of anything or sometimes nothing, it is the likelyhood that something damages that should be ruled upon. If you punch someone and they're fine you still get sent off, you kick a ball and someone ends up blocking it with their head and getting concussed, tough titties turkleton. You are legislating the outcome and not the act, which is a terrible idea and encourages gamesmanship.

Donnielighto

listermint wrote: »

Slippery road of what ? a manager speaking his mind after an adrenalin fuelled football final. lol

At least its not sanitised tripe that you here in other sports, id prefer if 'all' managers spoke their minds rightly or wrongly.

Tahts the key here, he had no justification for what he said. He's a liar.

Past30Now

Donnielighto wrote: »

Tahts the key here, he had no justification for what he said. He's a liar.

I don't agree that he's a liar. I've no doubt that he felt that Dublin had been blown up against on an inordinate number of occasions during the match. Seeing the 32 - 12 stat would have infuriated him, as no matter how cool you are when watching your team play, you can't help viewing through the prism of your own team.

As for his previous comment regarding cynicism, that in hindsight looks unwise. He has given others a stick to beat him with. Nobody wants their team to play cynically, however when defending a lead in the last couple of minutes of a senior All Ireland, a junior championship game or an under 12 league game, you want your players not to let the opposition through on goal, even if it means fouling the player. It's not nice, not sporting and in an ideal world wouldn't happen. It happens every week.

Slattsy

Donnielighto wrote: »

Tahts the key here, he had no justification for what he said. He's a liar.

Nonsense.
Did he lie? Nope.

He shouldnt have said it, but he didnt lie.

McQuillan was dire in the first half.

harpsman

premierstone wrote: »

I'll tell you why, because James Horan never said his team would never do such a terrible thing and he also never canme out after the Donegal defeat with a false claim that the referee was biased, as they say in the legal profession Gavin opened the door here

Well he did come out 6 months after the donegal defeat blaming joe brolly for daring to mention the obvious about Mayos cynical fouling.

harpsman

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Cute managers will use the black card to give them an extra three subs to use through the game as required. You can be sure that the top level managers are already devising ways to manipulate the new rules.

can somebody clear this up for me-if you ve used 5 subs and u get a black card can u still bring on a replacement-surelynot even in ireland could that be possible??

harpsman

It should be noted that Donegal never resorted to this nonsense last year when leadin by 3-6 points in a number of games-mind you they did concede late goals against cork and kerry and nearly against tyrone.
still,credit where its due please:)(not that im expecting any)

Slattsy

harpsman wrote: »

It should be noted that Donegal never resorted to this nonsense last year when leadin by 3-6 points in a number of games-mind you they did concede late goals against cork and kerry and nearly against tyrone.
still,credit where its due please:)(not that im expecting any)

Jog on

premierstone

listermint wrote: »

Slippery road of what ? a manager speaking his mind after an adrenalin fuelled football final. lol

At least its not sanitised tripe that you here in other sports, id prefer if 'all' managers spoke their minds rightly or wrongly.

As I said earlier its slander.

Do you think it would have been fair if Joe McQuilan came out after the game and said that Gavin was very lucky to win an AI as he had a poor AI on the sideline and using too many subs early etc. was reckless?? If Gavin is allowed to air his views on McQuillans performance then I don't see why it wouldn't be a two way street. Its very easy to blame referees for your own teams failings but people need to look closer to home and when winning managers are now joining in its going way to far.

Beagslife

Past30Now wrote: »

I'm not a referee but the fact that Rory's fair shoulder (and it was initially a fair shoulder) resulted in one player suffering a concussion means that it was dangerous play and therefore it was right that he was booked. What was wrong was that he was left on the pitch. A second concussion could have had tragic consequences.

I think this is the most important point raised in this thread. It received very little coverage in the media since. Dublin management came out after the game, saying that they didn't realise that O'Carroll was suffering from concussion.

Irish Times

Which is worse? That they left him on knowing the risks, or that with all the medical backup personnel at their disposal, they didn't know, or suspect concussion. They confirmed he was concussed after the match.

They took Cooper off. How much of a part, did not having a sub available, play in the decision? And who had the final call?

premierstone

Beagslife wrote: »

I think this is the most important point raised in this thread. It received very little coverage in the media since. Dublin management came out after the game, saying that they didn't realise that O'Carroll was suffering from concussion.

Irish Times

Which is worse? That they left him on knowing the risks, or that with all the medical backup personnel at their disposal, they didn't know, or suspect concussion. They confirmed he was concussed after the match.

They took Cooper off. How much of a part, did not having a sub available, play in the decision? And who had the final call?

Put quite simply they lied or they are incompetent, up to people to make their own minds up I guess!

PRAF

Beagslife wrote: »

I think this is the most important point raised in this thread. It received very little coverage in the media since. Dublin management came out after the game, saying that they didn't realise that O'Carroll was suffering from concussion.

Irish Times

Which is worse? That they left him on knowing the risks, or that with all the medical backup personnel at their disposal, they didn't know, or suspect concussion. They confirmed he was concussed after the match.

They took Cooper off. How much of a part, did not having a sub available, play in the decision? And who had the final call?

That thought did cross my mind when I was watching it live. I suspect that they knew he was concussed but perhaps he wasn't as bad as Cooper and they just ignored it / wished for the best.

premierstone

PRAF wrote: »

That thought did cross my mind when I was watching it live. I suspect that they knew he was concussed but perhaps he wasn't as bad as Cooper and they just ignored it / wished for the best.

To put it bluntly if that was the case, and only they know if it was, its professional negligence and a pretty damning situation.

PRAF

harpsman wrote: »

can somebody clear this up for me-if you ve used 5 subs and u get a black card can u still bring on a replacement-surelynot even in ireland could that be possible??

AFAIK the amount of subs allowed is being increased to 6 to allow for the introduction of the black card. However, if you've used up your 6 then you cannot replace a man if he gets a black card

Slattsy

Each case of concussion is different. Depends on the player, case by case.
You could see Cooper was fooked.
Different degrees of concussion and all that.
O'Carroll was fine to play on, been there myself (tough cookie)

premierstone

Slattsy wrote: »

Each case of concussion is different. Depends on the player, case by case.
You could see Cooper was fooked.
Different degrees of concussion and all that.
O'Carroll was fine to play on, been there myself (tough cookie)

Not one single sport I can think of, unless you can correct me, differntiates between any degrees of concussion, quite simply concussion is concussion.

Wasn't there a case recently when a young lad did something similar and was involved in a second collision and unfortunately died, being a tough cookie has absolutely nothing to do with it, an injury to the head is the same for everyone.

Slattsy

There are different grades of concussion.

Depends how tough you are too, Dubs are made of stern stuff. You dont become champions if you cant get up and play on after a wee knock on the crown :pac:

yop

Concussion is sport is a major issue and plenty has been detailed over the years on the after effects of concussion on players.
Like Rugby etc the GAA need to follow up on this and bring in a zero tolerance, been tough has nothing to do with it if you end up with a brain injury.

PRAF

Slattsy wrote: »

There are different grades of concussion.

Depends how tough you are too, Dubs are made of stern stuff. You dont become champions if you cant get up and play on after a wee knock on the crown :pac:

Yeah, I think there are different grades of concussion. However, the emerging trend seems to be to take no risks when it comes to any form of concussion. Better safe than sorry

Slattsy

Now lets see if the lads can find something else to have a pop at Dublin over

Thats the medical team covered.

Whats next?
Were the jersey's ironed properly?
Was there insufficient milk added to you tea at half time by the Dublin staff in Croker?

:pac:

The_Honeybadger

PRAF wrote: »

AFAIK the amount of subs allowed is being increased to 6 to allow for the introduction of the black card. However, if you've used up your 6 then you cannot replace a man if he gets a black card

As stated previously it is primed for abuse isn't it. It will really suit teams with a strong bench who will be at no meaningful disadvantage when a player is carded. A sin bin system similar to rugby is the only way to cut out the cynical stuff and really hurt teams who are constantly fouling.

yop

Slattsy wrote: »

Now lets see if the lads can find something else to have a pop at Dublin over

Thats the medical team covered.

Whats next?
Were the jersey's ironed properly?
Was there insufficient milk added to you tea at half time by the Dublin staff in Croker?

:pac:

Your getting a tad parnoid there Slattsy, accept your win with some dignity, your not doing too well so far.

As said already, in any other sport he would have been taken off, for his own safety, its not in GAA so they left him on, still doesn't mean the lad hasn't a brain injury and mightn't show up for a number of years.

premierstone

Slattsy wrote: »

Now lets see if the lads can find something else to have a pop at Dublin over

Thats the medical team covered.

Whats next?
Were the jersey's ironed properly?
Was there insufficient milk added to you tea at half time by the Dublin staff in Croker?

:pac:

Paranoid posters with chips on their shoulders who can't comment objectivly maybe

Slattsy

Im doing just fine

Clearly Im only joking.












Dublin tea ladies are second to none so i know thats not as issue

Slattsy

premierstone wrote: »

Paranoid posters with chips on their shoulders who can't comment objectivly maybe

Once i beat you in the FF i dont really mind any abuse i get :pac:

premierstone

Slattsy wrote: »

Once i beat you in the FF i dont really mind any abuse i get :pac:

Early days yet lad, Im like Bernard Brogan only getting warmed up and the class will eventually show, fair play to you for bringing the best out of me a little like the Mayo defense!

Slattsy

premierstone wrote: »

Early days yet lad, Im like Bernard Brogan only getting warmed up and the class will eventually show, fair play to you for bringing the best out of me a little like the Mayo defense!

A good opponent should always bring the best out of ya!

wirelessdude01

harpsman wrote: »

can somebody clear this up for me-if you ve used 5 subs and u get a black card can u still bring on a replacement-surelynot even in ireland could that be possible??

I'm not sure but any good manager will tell a player to get himself a black card. It's a free sub Why use a sub when you don't have to?

jmayo

Slattsy wrote: »

Each case of concussion is different. Depends on the player, case by case.
You could see Cooper was fooked.
Different degrees of concussion and all that.
O'Carroll was fine to play on, been there myself (tough cookie)

With bullsh** comments like that maybe you are still suffering form concussion.
Look at the research being done in rugby and American football regarding concussion.
AFAIK there have a been a couple of incidents of players (rugby one comes to mind) where players left on the pitch and later collapse.

It is football not an old style Ali versus foreman match we are on about here.

Slattsy wrote: »

There are different grades of concussion.

Depends how tough you are too, Dubs are made of stern stuff. You dont become champions if you cant get up and play on after a wee knock on the crown :pac:

What a load of sh**e.

Maybe you have recieved a few too many knocks to the head or perhaps maybe not enough to knock a bit sense into you.

One can see the point that gavin left him on the pitch because he had no subs and a body just taking up room is better than none at all.

But it is not a good precedent though because some day some player is going to really suffer for it.

All teams are cycnical when the need arises.
The whole gavin acting holier than thou sh**e is the thing that is peeing off most people.

You would swear this year that gavin had invented some new form of new samba style football much like one would have assumed the last couple of years that mcguinness had taken some poor county like Carlow to the All Ireland.

And yes there is also a lot of hype about what Horan has done when at the end of the day we still had some of the old failings when it counted.

PRAF

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I'm not sure but any good manager will tell a player to get himself a black card. It's a free sub Why use a sub when you don't have to?

There are measures in place to avoid abuse of the system AFAIK. Only 3 black cards allowed per team. Any more than that and it becomes a red for the next guy who commits a cynical foul.

Also, if you've used all of your subs already and a guy picks up a black card, it's tough titty for you. It's a de facto red in that case

That said, my preference would have been for a sin bin type penalty. This black card stuff seems a bit convoluted.

Stoner

I think both managers were quiet tbh. But when they did say anything it was blasted everywhere for days

Slattsy

jmayo wrote: »

With bullsh** comments like that maybe you are still suffering form concussion.
Look at the research being done in rugby and American football regarding concussion.
AFAIK there have a been a couple of incidents of players (rugby one comes to mind) where players left on the pitch and later collapse.

It is football not an old style Ali versus foreman match we are on about here.



What a load of sh**e.

Maybe you have recieved a few too many knocks to the head or perhaps maybe not enough to knock a bit sense into you.

One can see the point that gavin left him on the pitch because he had no subs and a body just taking up room is better than none at all.

But it is not a good precedent though because some day some player is going to really suffer for it.

All teams are cycnical when the need arises.
The whole gavin acting holier than thou sh**e is the thing that is peeing off most people.

You would swear this year that gavin had invented some new form of new samba style football much like one would have assumed the last couple of years that mcguinness had taken some poor county like Carlow to the All Ireland.

And yes there is also a lot of hype about what Horan has done when at the end of the day we still had some of the old failings when it counted.

Thanks for stopping by :-)

Donnielighto

Slattsy wrote: »

Nonsense.
Did he lie? Nope.

He shouldnt have said it, but he didnt lie.

McQuillan was dire in the first half.

He demonstrably lied, and it wasnt mind games lies which are passed off as being grand like earlier on in the year. He said the ref favoured mayo ffs, absolute lie.

wirelessdude01

PRAF wrote: »

There are measures in place to avoid abuse of the system AFAIK. Only 3 black cards allowed per team. Any more than that and it becomes a red for the next guy who commits a cynical foul.

Also, if you've used all of your subs already and a guy picks up a black card, it's tough titty for you. It's a de facto red in that case

That said, my preference would have been for a sin bin type penalty. This black card stuff seems a bit convoluted.

Think most managers will leave the last(6th) sub so cover such issues. Essentially it gives a team 9 subs. Will only lead to the position of the teams with the stronger panels coming to the fore even more. Sin bin should have been the only thing brought in to deal with this kinda behaviour. Teams wouldn't be long copping on.

Slattsy

Donnielighto wrote: »

He demonstrably lied, and it wasnt mind games lies which are passed off as being grand like earlier on in the year. He said the ref favoured mayo ffs, absolute lie.

He did.

Ace2007

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Think most managers will leave the last(6th) sub so cover such issues. Essentially it gives a team 9 subs. Will only lead to the position of the teams with the stronger panels coming to the fore even more. Sin bin should have been the only thing brought in to deal with this kinda behaviour. Teams wouldn't be long copping on.

All the measures talked about will stop the falling and off ball incidents for about 68 minutes but if your winning by 3 points with a few minutes to go- your going to just take the player to the ground and hold up play as much as you can- it's easy to do and no amount of black cards or sin bins will stop it.

The whole 3 black cards and then red is extremely unfair way of doing it. And a ref would never give a red for something stupid.

yop

Slattsy wrote: »

He did.

good that you finally agree that he did lie. Still waiting for him to walk away now