Credit Card Refused

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

emeldc wrote: »

I wasn't complaining about cards or their charges, in fact they work quite well for me. Increased turnover, less trips to the bank and if I can give cash back I have less lodgement charges. I'm simply trying to make the point that if were all a bit more efficient with our cards we would all pay less in charges.
And you are absolutely in a minority if you have no charges on your card.
You're not in business for yourself I take it!

I think you are confusing account maintenance fees with transaction fees. I too never play any charges to use my Debit card. Using a credit card to buy a bus ticket is overkill - get a debit card!

ScouseMouse

Zuri Large Papier-mache wrote: »

I think you are confusing account maintenance fees with transaction fees. I too never play any charges to use my Debit card. Using a credit card to buy a bus ticket is overkill - get a debit card!

Do you mind if ask, how do you get that. I assume you are holding a lump in one of the banks, or maybe lodge the 1500 into PTSB ?

SteM

superscouse wrote: »

Is PTSB based on lodging 1500 per month?
If so, lots of people cannot do that.

Yes, you must lodge €1500 over the course of the month to avoid paying transaction fees with PTSB. They say that this €1500 does not have to be lodged in one go but can come in multiple transactions and does not have to stay in the account for a fixed amount of time.

I wonder what would happen if someone lodged €600 then withdrew it and did this 2 more times. That's €1800 being lodged in the account.

foggy_lad

superscouse wrote: »

EBS website says:
Get five no-fee withdrawals per month.

There is no EBS charge for your first five withdrawals each month (ATMs or in-branch), if you

lodge at least €1,500 to your account each month. This could be your salary or made up of a few smaller lodgements,

or

keep a minimum balance of €500 in your account each month.

Please note: There is a maximum of five qualifying withdrawals per month.

That makes it limited, not to mention, in my experiences, EBS have very few cards out there. I base this on the fact, I have entire weeks when I do not see ANY EBS cards while I may process 100 other cards every week.

There are no charges for using your debit card online or for purchases in shops or for getting cashback from shops. These are the transactions most people make most often!

wonski

superscouse wrote: »

Do you mind if ask, how do you get that. I assume you are holding a lump in one of the banks, or maybe lodge the 1500 into PTSB ?

If you don't lodge 1500/month you pay 12 euro/quarter maintenance fee. Other than that no charges. 1% interest on top of that. We went ot completely, but saying that people have to pay fees is not true. People choose to pay those fees.

Vision of Disorder

foggy_lad wrote: »

We as customers are expected to pay extra to use a card or to buy credit and then you want us to pay your banking charges as well! Enough already!

Just on phone credit, I manage a Centra and recently the providers increased their costs yet again, if I was to sell €5 or €10 of phone credit to a customer I would literally (and I do mean literally) be losing money now, the recommended retail price is now €5.50 and €10.50 respectively. It was also suggested we raise the cost of higher denominations of credit but I've resisted that so far. I'm not gouging, or profiteering, or taking a little extra to pay my ESB or my wages, I am selling a product for a pitiful, miniscule profit in the hope that some of the people who come in to top up their phone may also buy something else (ditto for Lotto).

We do accept credit cards and, within reason, don't have a minimum fee set in stone for the customer to use one.

foggy_lad

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

Just on phone credit, I manage a Centra and recently the providers increased their costs yet again, if I was to sell €5 or €10 of phone credit to a customer I would literally (and I do mean literally) be losing money now, the recommended retail price is now €5.50 and €10.50 respectively. It was also suggested we raise the cost of higher denominations of credit but I've resisted that so far. I'm not gouging, or profiteering, or taking a little extra to pay my ESB or my wages, I am selling a product for a pitiful, miniscule profit in the hope that some of the people who come in to top up their phone may also buy something else (ditto for Lotto).

We do accept credit cards and, within reason, don't have a minimum fee set in stone for the customer to use one.

Like all other products and services nobody is forcing any shop to sell phone credit or to take debit/credit cards but how long would a busy shop last if they stopped taking cards and only sold phone credit in €20 denominations?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

superscouse wrote: »

Do you mind if ask, how do you get that. I assume you are holding a lump in one of the banks, or maybe lodge the 1500 into PTSB ?

Yes, I do mind. I am not with ptsb btw . Would you like bank account and pin number while I'm at it.:D

Point is that many people do not pay to use a debit card. If you do then shop around to find a bank that better suits you.

Vision of Disorder

foggy_lad wrote: »

Like all other products and services nobody is forcing any shop to sell phone credit or to take debit/credit cards

Nobody forces the consumer to buy it either. Get a bill phone if it bothers you that much. €10 of credit costs a retailer more than €10 to buy. They won't sell it at a loss and nor should they. I don't see your issue with that to be honest.

Fad

Beagslife wrote: »

Just out of interest, what type of student bus ticket costs €91.50 a month. Do you get to keep the bus. I'm getting old!

30 (can be non-consecutive) days of virtually unlimited Dublin bus travel. S'pretty good value.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

We do accept credit cards and, within reason, don't have a minimum fee set in stone for the customer to use one.

That does not make sense. You either accept Credit Cards for all purchases or you do not. What is "within reason" then?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

Nobody forces the consumer to buy it either. Get a bill phone if it bothers you that much. €10 of credit costs a retailer more than €10 to buy. They won't sell it at a loss and nor should they. I don't see your issue with that to be honest.

Or buy your credit online with your debit card and actually get the full amount of pre-pay you paid for. It also means not having to call in to the Central on the way home.

SpaceTime

The reason the phone credit is expensive is simply because the mobile companies can now very easily processes a top up on line from your credit or debit card.

They are unlikely to want to encourage people to use vouchers as it costs them more money.

ScouseMouse

Zuri Large Papier-mache wrote: »

That does not make sense. You either accept Credit Cards for all purchases or you do not. What is "within reason" then?

Because some people have attempted to use credit cards to pay for transactions like a lotto quick pick (profit 24c c.c charges more than that) and a bottle of water, etc etc etc.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

superscouse wrote: »

Because some people have attempted to use credit cards to pay for transactions like a lotto quick pick (profit 24c c.c charges more than that) and a bottle of water, etc etc etc.

You have missed the point. I can understand having a minimum set but he said they do not have a limit; only to add "within reason". So they do have a limit!

ScouseMouse

Zuri Large Papier-mache wrote: »

You have missed the point. I can understand having a minimum set but he said they do not have a limit; only to add "within reason". So they do have a limit!

The "withreason reason" comment was, I am sure, a common sense thing.

There is no point being silly and splitting hairs.

Vision of Disorder

I wouldn't accept a credit card for a pack of gum for arguments sake. As a rule of thumb if somebody is spending even €3 or €4 I'll accomodate them. In my last job there was a €10 minimum for any card transaction. I don't have a notice up in my current job, common sense has prevailed on both sides of the counter so far.

irishgeo

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

I was buying my student bus ticket today which costs E91.50 for 30 days. When I handed in my credit card to pay the shop said sorry we don't take those, only debit. This happened in two more shops. They hadn't even put the card in the machine for payment, they just blankly refused. I used it to pay in the 4th shop.

Does anyone have an explanation as to why this is happening?

Under the merchant credit card scheme they signed up for they cant do that. i get on to mastercard and/or visa about it. they cant pick and choose what transactions/cards they take under the rules of the scheme. read section 5.10 from the mastercard scheme rules. http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/BM-Entire_Manual_public.pdf

They can be fined/ or have their credit card facilties taken away for this and trust me mastercard and visa take this very serious.

Not taking credit cards at all is a different matter.
Contactless credit card transactions are free at the moment anyway.

emeldc

irishgeo wrote: »

Under the merchant credit card scheme they signed up for they cant do that. i get on to mastercard and/or visa about it. they cant pick and choose what transactions/cards they take under the rules of the scheme. read section 5.10 from the mastercard scheme rules. http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/BM-Entire_Manual_public.pdf

They can be fined/ or have their credit card facilties taken away for this and trust me mastercard and visa take this very serious.

Not taking credit cards at all is a different matter.
Contactless credit card transactions are free at the moment anyway.

As I said earlier I have a credit card terminal and I don't think I have ever refused a card of any type. But if I was going to make a loss on a card I absolutely would refuse it regardless of what the rules say. The retailer does not exist to facilitate a loss on a sale to a customer who has no cash and can't be bothered to go to an ATM to get some (not directed at you OP). So if Visa or Mastercard were to enforce these rules I think you might find there would be a lot less credit card terminals around.

SpaceTime

irishgeo wrote: »

Under the merchant credit card scheme they signed up for they cant do that. i get on to mastercard and/or visa about it. they cant pick and choose what transactions/cards they take under the rules of the scheme. read section 5.10 from the mastercard scheme rules. http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/BM-Entire_Manual_public.pdf

1) Those are the US merchant agreements for MasterCard USA. In general here, the machine's issued by a bank or other company that handles credit card transactions for the retailer, not by MasterCard or Visa directly.

2)

irishgeo wrote: »

Contactless credit card transactions are free at the moment anyway.

Not with AIB they aren't. Bank of Ireland are running some kind of a promotional introductory offer.

edit:

Looks like AIB joined the party :

'A: The account transaction fee of 0.20c is being waived for all Contactless transactions from launch until 28th February 2014. However, for non-euro Contactless transactions the Point of Sale Currency Conversion Fee of 1.75% of euro value Min EUR0.45 - Max EUR11.00 applies.'

robindch

SpaceTime wrote: »

They're not exactly running the transactions networks on the cheap, that's for sure!

Transaction networks are crazy expensive to keep running and it's especially hard to make any money on the acquirer end of the card business (the end that looks after POS devices and the payment networks they connect to). The following page breaks down a typical merchant charge:

http://www.transactionworld.net/articles/2008/February/commonGround1.asp

Spoiler: I've been working in the world of electronic payments for around 15 years.

SpaceTime

European merchants are actually entitled to surcharge for credit cards under that agreement you quoted above, provided they indicate this.

Rule 5.11.2 of Chapter 5 does not apply in the EEA.
If a Merchant applies a surcharge for payment by Card, the amount or method of calculation of the surcharge must be clearly indicated to the Cardholder at the POI location and must bear a reasonable relationship to the Merchant’s cost of accepting Cards.

SpaceTime

The biggest issue in Europe is that they've become a duopoly of Visa and MasterCard.

The US has other smaller alternatives like American Express and Discover Card.

In Europe the banks are ever more reliant on the big two brands now for debit cards too.

We used to have national debit card platforms like Laser that could have become a bigger pan EU alternative had they linked up together.

EuroCard / Europay also got swallowed by MasterCard. That shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

We urgently need alternative payment solutions. Surprising how badly the EU competition commission has dropped the ball on this. They're very aggressive with any possible monopolists in other sectors.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

SpaceTime wrote: »

The biggest issue in Europe is that they've become a duopoly of Visa and MasterCard.

The US has other smaller alternatives like American Express and Discover Card.

In Europe the banks are ever more reliant on the big two brands now for debit cards too.

We used to have national debit card platforms like Laser that could have become a bigger pan EU alternative had they linked up together.

EuroCard / Europay also got swallowed by MasterCard. That shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

We urgently need alternative payment solutions. Surprising how badly the EU competition commission has dropped the ball on this. They're very aggressive with any possible monopolists in other sectors.

Try using American Express in the US. 70% of stores won't accept it. They may have more CC companies but some are of much use.

robindch

SpaceTime wrote: »

The biggest issue in Europe is that they've become a duopoly of Visa and MasterCard. The US has other smaller alternatives like American Express and Discover Card.

Amex and Discover already operate networks in Europe. And China Union Pay is setting up too.

SpaceTime wrote: »

We used to have national debit card platforms like Laser that could have become a bigger pan EU alternative had they linked up together.

There are many technical reasons, as well as political reasons why that didn't happen. Most of them boil down to the simple fact that Visa and MasterCard run cheaper networks.

SpaceTime wrote: »

We urgently need alternative payment solutions.

There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of alternate payment systems and networks. None of them have taken off because they're more expensive or with less coverage or both.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Surprising how badly the EU competition commission has dropped the ball on this. They're very aggressive with any possible monopolists in other sectors.

The EU has, for many years, been pushing SEPA as well as pursuing both Visa and MasterCard for a range of anti-trust and anti-competition issues. You can find many articles on both if you google for "mastercard eu" and "Visa card eu", or anything more specific.

Hope this helps.

trellheim

tl;dr no obligation to accept cards on any retailer.

ScouseMouse

One of my lads had an ejit in recently who demanded his card be accepted and apparently, as he "worked in a bank" he knew we could not refuse it.

He went quiet when my guy pointed out he didn't even have to take cash of him, never mind a credit card.

DOPE.

irishgeo

superscouse wrote: »

One of my lads had an ejit in recently who demanded his card be accepted and apparently, as he "worked in a bank" he knew we could not refuse it.

He went quiet when my guy pointed out he didn't even have to take cash of him, never mind a credit card.

DOPE.

People wonder then why small shops are closing down.

ScouseMouse

irishgeo wrote: »

People wonder then why small shops are closing down.

Quite right. People think they can pay for a bottle of water and hand you a card. That could put me into a loss. It just cannot be done.

Next week there will be a massive influx of roses tins at 5.99.

That price gives 3%. So 6 multiplied by 3c is 18c. A credit card will cost more to process than the profit. I can see it happening already.

In the U.S., I have seen cash prices and card prices. I wonder will this come in over here?

SpaceTime

If your profit margins are that low on the product, is there any point in even stocking it though?

I mean, I can understand how a supermarket might operate on 3% but, a small shop couldn't possibly do that across everything as they simply wouldn't have the volume of transactions to make profit.

ScouseMouse

SpaceTime wrote: »

If your profit margins are that low on the product, is there any point in even stocking it though?

I mean, I can understand how a supermarket might operate on 3% but, a small shop couldn't possibly do that across everything as they simply wouldn't have the volume of transactions to make profit.

Thats an excellent point. I am affilitated to a symbol group and Roses is a KVI line that will be everywhere as a 5.99 deal. Tv and Radio. Its already on the radio for Tesco.

I am still open minded about what price to go out at, but I am sick of people complaining "this or that is in tesco/dunnes/aldi so much cheaper, you're very expensive"

Del2005

SpaceTime wrote: »

If your profit margins are that low on the product, is there any point in even stocking it though?

I mean, I can understand how a supermarket might operate on 3% but, a small shop couldn't possibly do that across everything as they simply wouldn't have the volume of transactions to make profit.

They don't make a profit on them but by selling them they hope people will buy something else that they have a decent profit on at the same time. Kinda like supermarkets selling below costs to attract customers, except small retailers don't get to choose.

The other day in Lidl I saw a person put 37 cent on a card.

SpaceTime

Well, if it's like almost a loss leader that would make sense but, I think people are being a read unrealistic if they think the local convenience store can price as low as Aldi

ScouseMouse

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well, if it's like almost a loss leader that would make sense but, I think people are being a read unrealistic if they think the local convenience store can price as low as Aldi

EXACTLY!. But from experience I can honestly say nobody cares, thats your problem not mine, sentiments that foggy lad has echoed here many times. If you cannot/don't want to do it - close!

Shelflife

Foggy lad lets say you work in Q ltd. you receive €100 per week in wages (selling price) it costs you €75 per week in bus fares to get to work (cost price) so you have €25 for yourself (profit) and everyone is happy.

If the bus fares rise to €110 (costs going up) do you

("If ye have a problem with the costs then ye are in the wrong business and should close up shop")

Close up shop and not go to work anymore (taking your own advice)

Or go to your employer and ask for a payrise (increase your price and pass on the increased costs to the end user).

The product in question here are your labour hours which you are in effect selling to your employer.

saltyjack silverblade

So...um...thanks for responding and giving a fascinating insight into the world of SMEs.

wonski

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

So...um...thanks for responding and giving a fascinating insight into the world of SMEs.

You are very welcome:D You didn't expect such a response, did You?