The Chinese are Quick Learners (2013)

Saab Ed

Viper_JB wrote: »

I'd be interesting in hearing about the engine and safety ratings (non-Chinese safety ratings). Two areas they don't seem to be able to crack as of yet, I'd have a feeling though as cheap plastic interiors go this will probably win a prize.

Back from the dead:D

But now that you've asked ....


http://www.carsafetyrules.com/qoros-3-review-china-produces-small-family-car-rivals-premium-brands-safety/0925/

mullingar

Saab Ed wrote: »

Back from the dead:D

But now that you've asked ....


http://www.carsafetyrules.com/qoros-3-review-china-produces-small-family-car-rivals-premium-brands-safety/0925/

Wow, a high 5* rating.

The car scored 95% for adult occupant, 87% for child protection and 77% for pedestrian protection - See more at: http://www.carsafetyrules.com/qoros-3-review-china-produces-small-family-car-rivals-premium-brands-safety/0925/#sthash.cqojf9Rh.dpuf

Poulgorm

A Chinese car (Qoros 3) has just been awarded 5 stars by Euro NCAP.

This is the link:
http://www.euroncap.com/results/qoros/3/528.aspx

I assume someone here will take up the franchise, at some stage.

Excerpt from another website:

"The Qoros 3 just scored a five-star crash safety rating in the Euro NCAP test. Even more shockingly, the car achieved the highest overall performance of all vehicles assessed so far in 2013, making it one of the safest vehicles ever tested by the Europeans.

It's hard to see this as anything other than a huge win for both Qoros, a new and upcoming automaker, as well as Chinese cars in general. Just a few years ago, their safety and quality ratings were considered laughable by Western standards. When Brilliance tried to export their B6 sedan in 2007, it scored only one star in a German test. Now we have a Chinese car that ranked among the best tested in Europe this year."

kasper

I wonder where they got the tyres from ?

mcgarrett

There's a motor stand at the ploughing called "Great Wall" never heard of them but they have a wagon very similar to the Navarro.

visual

I wouldn't say the Chinese are quick learners more like poor imitators.
But getting 5 stars is a first

Mahogany Gaspipe

visual wrote: »

I wouldn't say the Chinese are quick learners more like poor imitators.

That's a pretty dim understanding of global manufacturing you have there; not to worry though you'll become informed in time.

biko

visual wrote: »

I wouldn't say the Chinese are quick learners more like poor imitators.

Tbh mate, they were/are but they're also already manufacturing everything we use. They've been creating crap quality stuff for bottom prices a long time but they have the know how to make really good products too.
Slowly but surely I think we'll see more and more quality stuff coming out from there. Or one can at least hope.

About Great Wall cars
http://galwayindependent.com/20130717/motoring/irelands-first-chinese-car-brand-wraps-up-finance-deal-S21222.html

visual

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

That's a pretty dim understanding of global manufacturing you have there; not to worry though you'll become informed in time.

Any idiot can copy and in manufacturing that is all it iis.then cut every corner until its cheap and nasty and a profit can be made.

But I doubt you would know anthing about quality or durability.

And you can talk all you want about iphone made there all you want

hfallada

But I imagine the finish on the inside is ****. Having visited china, corners are cut on everything. Even a luxury hotel uses cheap western copies.

But cars are mainly sold on the image a brand convoys eg luxury. It will be very difficult to sell Chinese cars to the Europeans and not a hope selling these to the Americans.

visual

I was watching a top gear program where they tested a number of cars
All where under powered for their engine size with poor road holding. Probably all on those Chinese tyres

Poulgorm

visual wrote: »

Any idiot can copy and in manufacturing that is all it iis.then cut every corner until its cheap and nasty and a profit can be made.

But I doubt you would know anthing about quality or durability.

And you can talk all you want about iphone made there

Apparently, Qoros are going after the high end market. The only European country the Qoros 3 is currently on sale is in Slovakia, where it costs more than a Passat.

Usually, Asian manufacurers, when they first enter the European market, go after the cheaper end - but not Qoros.

They will surely match the German cars for reliability and durability - but that is no real test.

ba_barabus

It's a JV between Chery and an Israeli GROUP so not totally Chinese

colm_mcm

Impressive enough power from the engine, 1.6 Is 126hp, the turbo is 156hp
DSG type gearbox too

Its the emissions that'll make or break it

ba_barabus

Here is some more info for you all

http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/industry/keeping-it-simple-new-premium-says-qoros

visual

Have a serious think about it.

Yes they make lots of things copied from someone else.they fully understand everything are the bearings of the same quality or better than European makes. I very much doubt it even in their version of luxury.

No one can know for sure as it will take time to discover but in every other area they are in be it electronics boats planes or cars they have been plaged with poor quality.

If you expect a car to last 10 years and / or 300k miles a lot of high tolerances high quality components are needed. Then transport it 1/2 around the world.

The Japanese where very successful because they understood and designed their cars to high tolerances but their early years seen them use poor steel a costly lesson and the demise of Datson name.

The difference with Chinese is they copy with minimum designer input or research and testing. That's a cost they avoid with all their products.

Dord

I'm more interested in that link to be honest. I didn't know they actually published all the details like that. It's quite interesting.

ba_barabus

visual wrote: »

The difference with Chinese is they copy with minimum designer input or research and testing. That's a cost they avoid with all their products.

Have you read the article or are you just spouting off the usual drivel that you've heard about Chinese products?

ba_barabus

Dord wrote: »

I'm more interested in that link to be honest. I didn't know they actually published all the details like that. It's quite interesting.

They remind me of a more mainstream Tesla in that they are taking a similar approach in doing things differently. They're certainly a company that is worth watching.

CianRyan

Don't forget that all Apple products, though designed in California, are made in China. They are definitely considered luxury items and are very reliable.
I wouldn't worry too much about selling it to the people.

It's also a decent looking car (very Kia Optima) with a nice interior.

colm_mcm

It's been proven many times that it doesn't really matter where you build something. Design and quality of materials is the key.

ba_barabus

colm_mcm wrote: »

It's been proven many times that it doesn't really matter where you build something. Design and quality of materials is the key.

And how well you organise and treat your staff. Take NUMMI for example. Same cars, same design, same materials but the workers were treated far better and the cars they made were of a far higher quality.

visual

ba_barabus wrote: »

Have you read the article or are you just spouting off the usual drivel that you've heard about Chinese products?

Yes I have marketing material is renowned for making claims that are hard to live up to.

But even in the marketing it's proclaim R&D is a overhead they avoid making them more flexible.
But that's typical of marketing dismiss the negative and spin it to advantage.

ba_barabus

visual wrote: »

Yes I have marketing material is renowned for making claims that are hard to live up to.

Ok......

So marketing has made up: some pretty famous people who are working for them with notable backgrounds including the former head of BMW M-sports division, the amount of money they've spent (this can be verified with an auditors report which they'll have to have and publish), the whole approach of the company to outsourcing processes they're not good at and the independently performed Euroncap tests that independently verify it as the safest car they've ever had through the independent testing procedure.

I think you're being obtuse as you know that in this instance you're wrong.

BTW just to address you're claims they badly copy everything, this car is new from the ground up including it's platform and engines. The company has only existed since 2007. All of their designs are clean sheet designs.

131spanner

I hadn't seen the car previous to this and I wrongly presumed a "Chinese car" would be along the lines of a Smart car or Hyundai i20 or such...

How wrong I was :eek: I went through there website for a look, you'd get a few laughs out of the descriptions they give

visual

ba_barabus wrote: »

Ok......

So marketing has made up: some pretty famous people who are working for them with notable backgrounds including the former head of BMW M-sports division, the amount of money they've spent (this can be verified with an auditors report which they'll have to have and publish), the whole approach of the company to outsourcing processes they're not good at and the independently performed Euroncap tests that independently verify it as the safest car they've ever had through the independent testing procedure.

I think you're being obtuse as you know that in this instance you're wrong.

500 million the same cost of a face lift for established brand but they can set up manufacturing a new model.

Read the links in the thread and not blindly beleive that a few names poched from some where else sitting in a office actually make these cars.

The NCAP is impressive but Renault where one of the first comanies to get 5 stars over a decade ago with the lanuna II and that was a nasty car.

Sobanek

Laguna II was a great car if it wasn't for reliability to be honest. The facelift model had almost every issue resolved. No wonder they were so popular.

ba_barabus

visual wrote: »

500 million the same cost of a face lift for established brand but they can set up manufacturing a new model.

That's the whole point. It's a small start up which isn't constrained by slow work practices like bigger companies. They're like Tesla in that regard. If something needs to be done it can be done asap. The are also taking advantage of model work practices and sourcing/outsourcing where appropriate. In other words rather than trying to develop methods to get things done they just outsource it to companies who already do it.

visual wrote: »

Read the links in the thread and not blindly beleive that a few names poched from some where else sitting in a office actually make these cars.

Do you think Chinese soldiers arrived and forcibly removed experts from other companies and now they force them to sit in an office in China building Quros? You do know these people joined voluntarily and brought years of expertise gathered from working with established players.

visual wrote: »

The NCAP is impressive but Renault where one of the first comanies to get 5 stars over a decade ago with the lanuna II and that was a nasty car.

Yes and it only took Renault around 100 years of manufacturing to get such a safe car manufactured. It took Quoros 6 years. Go figure.........;)

kirving

ba_barabus wrote: »

All of their designs are clean sheet designs.

Yeah, they were clean sheets before they went through the photocopier. :pac:

Given a few key people, and enough resources, anyone could build an S-Class from scratch in the morning. It's not that a home grown Chinese company couldn't build a great car, it's just that it takes a certain understanding of what the Western market wants over the Chinese market.

After that, you've gotta break into the market and without prestige, the only way to do that is via price. A few years of cheap cars before introducing the more well equipped expensive cars. It's just a slow process, but if the Chinese can follow in the Korean's footsteps, it wont be long before they're commonplace.

visual

Sobanek wrote: »

Laguna II was a great car if it wasn't for reliability to be honest. The facelift model had almost every issue resolved. No wonder they were so popular.

I had the diesel model with all the options beautiful car drove very nice and really comfortable and a real motorway cruiser with 6 speed. But after 80 k everything started to give issues because of cheap parts. I had it main dealer serviced untill 120 k and not counting consumables brakes tyres batteries etc I spent over 6 k in its last 2 years before I gave it to the son who drove it for another 6 months and sold it for parts.

If renault got the quality right on this model they would have captured the market for decades to come. But I think most renault owners who keep their cars over 5 years or 100k miles won't go back.

Dord

ba_barabus wrote: »

They remind me of a more mainstream Tesla in that they are taking a similar approach in doing things differently. They're certainly a company that is worth watching.

I was talking about euro ncap test results.

JohnBoy26

colm_mcm wrote: »

It's been proven many times that it doesn't really matter where you build something. Design and quality of materials is the key.

How has it been proven though? In terms of cars made in other countries it does matter or at least it did a few years back especially where the Japanese are concerned.

The largest problem being the difference in the quality of components by the european outside manufacturers vs their japanese counterparts.

Chris_Heilong

you only need expensive material in order to make quality products, The chinese have the ability to make anything but its down to what market the product is aimed at and unfortunately the lower end is where they might make the biggest profit so they get a reputation as being cheap but most things are well crafted just with **** materials.

JohnBoy26

visual wrote: »

I was watching a top gear program where they tested a number of cars
All where under powered for their engine size with poor road holding. Probably all on those Chinese tyres

There's your problem right there. Where those top gear people are concerned, if it isn't some sort of veyron or British sport car or where Jeremy Clarkson is concerned any ford then it's cr*p.

Seriously any thing they say should be taken with a pinch of salt.

visual

Top Gear is a entertainment show but they still drove the carbon copies of cars around the track that demonstrated how poor the performance and handling is.

But one source isn't enough youtube is filled with crash tests

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/BOFIt9iw1Fs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
http://youtu.be/BOFIt9iw1Fs

although this isn't relevant to the car we are discussing here it does highlight the lack of quality control and quality control starts at the design concept stage and raw materials. This is where the Chinese score low
they do not see the benefit in spending money in research and development, hight quality control processes and testing. this results in a inferior product.

granted the NCAP score is excellent, NCAP only does a limited amount of front and side impact tests. it doesn't cover rear collisions, brakes steering handling.

Big Nasty

It will be very difficult to sell Chinese cars to the Europeans and not a hope selling these to the Americans.

I'm sure somebody said the same about Jap cars 40 years back.

HandsomeDan

I fail to see what's so impressive here. Older manufacturers have had to start from scratch and innovate/take risks to achieve ever improved safety standards.

All these boys have done is reverse engineer existing systems.

Davidth88

mcgarrett wrote: »

There's a motor stand at the ploughing called "Great Wall" never heard of them but they have a wagon very similar to the Navarro.

A neighbour of mine works for a Subaru dealer and drives a demo car.

He turned up in a Great Wall pick up , I had a nose around it

To my eye it looked very very garish and ugly , he reckoned it had a good safety rating .

Mr.David

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

you only need expensive material in order to make quality products

no, you really need so so so much more than that.

e.g. rolls-royce or bentley before they were bought by the germans.

Zubeneschamali

The Chinese makers are only 45% of the Chinese market. It'll be 10 years before they are competitive.

Zubeneschamali

MCMLXXV wrote: »

I'm sure somebody said the same about Jap cars 40 years back.

No, 40 years ago, 1973, the Corolla, the Datsun (Nissan) Z-Cars, the Datsun 120Y(sunny) were all on sale, popular and competitive. The first generation Civic launched in 1972. the first Mitsubishi Lancer was 1973.

The Japanese, 40 years ago, were much more competitive than the Chinese are today.

JJJJNR

Take my money.!

Big Nasty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, 40 years ago, 1973, the Corolla, the Datsun (Nissan) Z-Cars, the Datsun 120Y(sunny) were all on sale, popular and competitive. The first generation Civic launched in 1972. the first Mitsubishi Lancer was 1973.

The Japanese, 40 years ago, were much more competitive than the Chinese are today.

50 then. :P

Zubeneschamali

MCMLXXV wrote: »

50 then. :P

Yes, i'd say in 10 or 15 years, the domestic Chinese manufacturers may be able to design and make a good car. In the meantime, it'll be mostly joint ventures with foreign makers.

colm_mcm

Re the great wall

Its very similar to other pick ups though with the exception of the Volkswagen anorak.
You can get away with that on a pickup


New 5 star rating is a big deal though, i remember in 09 some Toyota models only got 3 stars.
I know manufacturers have to engineer their cars in a specific way to do well in these tests and its debatable whether this leads to a safer car but the fact remains that they got the rating and its a milestone for a Chinese company.

The main issue i see with the car is that the brand has no heritage, theyre an unknown quantity. They dont really have a unique selling point and that means itll have to be cheap.
15% less than a Volkswagen isnt that cheap. Thats skoda territory.

Joe 90

MCMLXXV wrote: »

I'm sure somebody said the same about Jap cars 40 years back.

The fact is that Jap cars were truly atrocious 40 years ago. British cars wer not quite so atrocious but the Jap cars were at least well built atrocious cars so they sold.
Thirty years ago Jap bread and butter cars were no longer atrocious and they even produced a few interesting cars. But even their interesting cars came on atrocious Jap tyres. If you bought an interesting Jap car you changed the tyres forthwith. These days if you go looking for good tyres a few of the Jap manufacturers, Yokohame, Toyo, Bridgestone are at or near the top of the list.

Eight Ball

Very impressive. Will be interesting to see where we are in 10 years time with Chinese cars in Europe. If I was a betting man id say they will do very well indeed.

JohnBoy26

Joe 90 wrote: »

The fact is that Jap cars were truly atrocious 40 years ago. British cars wer not quite so atrocious but the Jap cars were at least well built atrocious cars so they sold.
Thirty years ago Jap bread and butter cars were no longer atrocious and they even produced a few interesting cars. But even their interesting cars came on atrocious Jap tyres. If you bought an interesting Jap car you changed the tyres forthwith. These days if you go looking for good tyres a few of the Jap manufacturers, Yokohame, Toyo, Bridgestone are at or near the top of the list.

leaving build quality aside, id wager the British cars of 30 and 40 years ago where far worse in most aspects compared to their Japanese counterparts with rust being the only area where both the British and the Japanese where as bad as each other.

In those days the British where churning out cars like the morris marina which was a dreadful car based on (even at the time) ancient Morris minor.

The Japanese equivalents at the time such as the datsun, corolla and lancer where light years ahead of anything built by the British.

EazyD

ba_barabus wrote: »

Have you read the article or are you just spouting off the usual drivel that you've heard about Chinese products?

It's not necessarily drivel. Are you aware of patent laws in China? They are far more flexible and as a result, domestic companies there can undercut significant R&D costs to produce similar/copied versions of existent foreign products at a fraction of the price.

ba_barabus

EazyD wrote: »

It's not necessarily drivel. Are you aware of patent laws in China? They are far more flexible and as a result, domestic companies there can undercut significant R&D costs to produce similar/copied versions of existent foreign products at a fraction of the price.

I'm very much aware of them as I talk often with a guy who works as an adviser to a number of Chinese auto firms in China.

I still don't see how any of the above is of use though as nobody, including any other manufacturers has claimed that Quros have stolen anybody else's IP.