Free travel passes not to be touched in budget - Minister Burton

Fred Swanson

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LXFlyer

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Let's be realistic - that would be political suicide.

In time it may be marginally scaled back (such as peak hour in the cities), but no political party would ever abolish it.

monument

Maybe she should be forced to pay the transport companies what they are owed? What's the underpayment again?

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Maybe she should be forced to pay the transport companies what they are owed? What's the underpayment again?

I imagine there has been an underpayment since day #1!

road_high

Burton is an absolute disaster in SW. At a time when the whole system is ripe for reform she has made no attempt to reform. Just increase the taxes on the rest of us gob****es. God forbid soem of the highest SW rate in the world be cut or scaled regardless of whether you've worked a day in your life or not.
Sorry to go off in a tangent but that Minister is woeful.

AlekSmart

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Don't be shocked Fred....Making a statement such as this at the Age Action Ireland gig is simply stating the truth.

There never was a threat to the Old Age Pensioners Free Travel Pass.
The reason is very simple,Pass Holders of Pensionable age account for less than HALF of the total number of Free Travel Documents in circulation.

Had various politicians refrained from tinkering with the original ethos of the Free Travel Scheme,then it would not be in the state of flux it currently is....:(

BenShermin

Can't be sure if I heard it properly or not tbh, but I thought RTÉ reported that OAPs would not lose their free travel. Surely this leaves the door open for reform of the pass for any non-OAPs?

No Pants

There's plenty of room for reform. For example, my Da has a car and a bike. He has a free travel pass because of his age. He doesn't need it and I think that anyone who can afford to run a car shouldn't have a pass. Maybe it could be linked to vehicle ownership and/or motor tax. That way everyone can travel and we don't hear whinging about pensioners being trapped in their homes.

One thing reforms would need to be careful of is EU legislation. My Ma wasn't entitled to a pass, but she got one because she would have been entitled to one in the UK.

Banjoxed

BenShermin wrote: »

Can't be sure if I heard it properly or not tbh, but I thought RTÉ reported that OAPs would not lose their free travel. Surely this leaves the door open for reform of the pass for any non-OAPs?

That was the way I heard it. OAPs passes may be safe but the rest may be in play.

BowWow

"The minister also confirmed that eligible people will not lose their entitlement to the travel pass."

There is the key word.........

She didn't say there would be no change to the rules of eligibility.

Tarabuses

No Pants wrote: »

There's plenty of room for reform. For example, my Da has a car and a bike. He has a free travel pass because of his age. He doesn't need it and I think that anyone who can afford to run a car shouldn't have a pass. Maybe it could be linked to vehicle ownership and/or motor tax. That way everyone can travel and we don't hear whinging about pensioners being trapped in their homes.

One thing reforms would need to be careful of is EU legislation. My Ma wasn't entitled to a pass, but she got one because she would have been entitled to one in the UK.

If your Da doesn't use his travel pass then he is not costing us anything. It would probably cost more to monitor a system that would deprive him of it.

Fred Swanson

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LXFlyer

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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As I said above - there is no way that the OAP pass will be touched (except possibly to reduce peak hour availability).

Any political party that sought to do so would be committing political suicide.

No Pants

Tarabuses wrote: »

If your Da doesn't use his travel pass then he is not costing us anything. It would probably cost more to monitor a system that would deprive him of it.

He does use it occasionally. My point was that he has other transport options open to him. He's also able to afford a bus ticket when he decides that's more convenient.

How is the use of the pass currently tracked?

Fred Swanson

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No Pants

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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So we can't prove one way or another how much the scheme costs.

Fred Swanson

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Losty Dublin

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Even if they did track use they'd still receive a flat fee from the DSP for providing the facility of free travel so it would be a futile exercise.

Daemos

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Pretty sure BE does. Any time I've gotten on with a travel pass holder they key something into the ticketing machine

markpb

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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As far as I know, DB drivers are meant to record all FP holders on the ticket machine but they don't need to issue them a ticket. DB know the data from this isn't reliable so reliable so they uplift the numbers by a certain percentage. Of course, this doesn't record what type of ticket the FP holder would have used, only the fact that they travelled.

murphaph

Why are pensioners given free travel based purely on reaching an arbitrary age? Where I live there's no free travel based on such criteria. Pensioners can avail of discounted travel, but not free of charge. Free of charge is crazy....it leads to unnecessary journeys on a massive scale. Germany has a graduated system of disability. A pal of mine is 60% disabled, so he gets a free pass but cannot bring a partner. A completely blind person would be deemed 100% disabled and could bring a partner.

dowlingm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Even if they did track use they'd still receive a flat fee from the DSP for providing the facility of free travel so it would be a futile exercise.

If those companies wanted to advocate for change then having reasonable good data about use would be advisable I'd have thought.

Owryan

Said it before and i ll say it again. Take the FTP off everyone and only give it to those who need it, even then it should only be subsidised.

Im saying that as someone who has one.

AlekSmart

dowlingm wrote: »

If those companies wanted to advocate for change then having reasonable good data about use would be advisable I'd have thought.

True Dowlingm,but that would presuppose those Companies being entirely independent Corporate Entities,which the CIE companies are most certainly NOT.

Attempts to find any hard data on the Free Travel Scheme itself or it's Operational Methodology will generally deliver disappointing results.

Even recent Dáil Committee appearances by the DSP's highest-level Management resulted in lots of "approximates" and associated fudgey stuff when statistics were mentioned.

The Free Travel Scheme,and the associated other "Free Schemes" of the Dept of Social Protection remain,essentially,Political Tools utilized to keep the masses docile.

The last (and perhaps ONLY) independent study of these Schemes dates from 2000 and comes from TCD's Policy Institute.

http://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/assets/pdf/BP5_Quinn_Free_Schemes.pdf

The Free Travel Scheme is in section 3,however the study bears reading in it's entirety as,even 13 years later it can be a revealing document,if only to confirm,for example,that CIE have raised significant issues over the years,all of which,in our magic kingdom, went unaddressed.

loyatemu

if the number of passes was greatly reduced, or a nominal fee introduced per journey, we'd likely see a major reduction in usage. this would then result in a cut in services - sure the transport companies would be saving money, but only by cutting back.

Net result: fewer, less frequent services for paying customers. Or have I got this wrong?

foggy_lad

loyatemu wrote: »

if the number of passes was greatly reduced, or a nominal fee introduced per journey, we'd likely see a major reduction in usage. this would then result in a cut in services - sure the transport companies would be saving money, but only by cutting back.

Net result: fewer, less frequent services for paying customers. Or have I got this wrong?

With fewer less frequent services comes less staff required and even more cuts to salary and payments for shift allowance sick pay etc. Also by that stage the government would probably let the CIE companies fold rather than let striking workers have their way when everyone else is ebnduring much greater cuts.

RonanM123

IE should have a cap on number of pass holders per service, 20-25 seems reasonable and be allowed to reject them on busy services where online bookings are high or even just allowed to say no pass holders can travel on this service.

They wouldn't be doing anything wrong at the department of social welfare can't do much and our TD's can't either.

There should of being some reform made to people who can receive passes, Joan Burton is a disgrace and has done next to nothing to stop fraud since she has being in office over 2.5 years. Hopefully a reshuffle on the cards soon and somebody will actually act and stop pussy footing around things.

No Pants

murphaph wrote: »

Free of charge is crazy....it leads to unnecessary journeys on a massive scale.

Can you please give me an example of such an event? I can't see myself taking a journey just because it was free and I don't understand why anyone else would.

Daemonic

No Pants wrote: »

Can you please give me an example of such an event? I can't see myself taking a journey just because it was free and I don't understand why anyone else would.

My parents use their free passes to take day trips regularly. They'd probably do a few of these anyway if they had to pay, but no where near as many. For a lot of people it's an opportunity to pass the day if you have nothing else planned.

bk

No Pants wrote: »

Can you please give me an example of such an event? I can't see myself taking a journey just because it was free and I don't understand why anyone else would.

I do, my aunt uses here free pass to get the train from Cork to Dublin about once every two weeks.

She just does it for the day, something to do and to walk around Dublin a bit. Doesn't even go shopping!!

She herself admits it is totally frivolous, she lives in Cork city, so she isn't exactly isolated. Lots of her friends do the same and go with her.

My dad has a car and the pass (OAP), but he takes the train when coming up to visit me in Dublin, just because he can relax and do the cross word on the train.

Lots and lots of people day trip around the country on free passes.

Asking people to pay 1/4 of a normal fare would make people ask if they really need to make the trip or not. It might also get people to take cheaper forms of transport. For instance 1/4 of a €9 Aircoach to Cork ticket or 1/4 of a €40 train ticket.

BuffyBot

IE should have a cap on number of pass holders per service, 20-25 seems reasonable and be allowed to reject them on busy services where online bookings are high or even just allowed to say no pass holders can travel on this service.

..and what about the outcry when Grandma Jones is left behind at station X missing her vital puppy to cure her of cancer of the puppy? Not workable, really.

My parents use their free passes to take day trips regularly. They'd probably do a few of these anyway if they had to pay, but no where near as many. For a lot of people it's an opportunity to pass the day if you have nothing else planned.

Whatever your parents may do, that's merely anecdotal evidence and doesn't bring anything to add weight to the claim above.

We all know lots of people who do lots of things: it doesn't make it representative of the general populous, however.

n97 mini

No Pants wrote: »

Can you please give me an example of such an event? I can't see myself taking a journey just because it was free and I don't understand why anyone else would.

To add weight to what others are saying, you couldn't keep my father off the trains when he got his FTP. He was always concious of the cost of running the car, but that weight was lifted when he got the free travel.

Losty Dublin

BuffyBot wrote: »

Whatever your parents may do, that's merely anecdotal evidence and doesn't bring anything to add weight to the claim above.

We all know lots of people who do lots of things: it doesn't make it representative of the general populous, however.

Ask around and see how many of us will know of DSP pass holders who do just this and make trips primarily on their having a free pass to use. It will make for a lot of anecdotes.

BuffyBot

..but still anecdotes, and that's the problem

Owryan

BuffyBot wrote: »

..but still anecdotes, and that's the problem

Surely everything about the travel pass debate is anecdotal ? I ve never been asked as to the nature of my journey. Dont even think therr is anyone even watching or recording how the passes are used.

Losty Dublin

BuffyBot wrote: »

..but still anecdotes, and that's the problem

They will remain anecdotes as to prove otherwise means questioning a passengers reason for making their trip, something we all know is impractical, offensive and wrong for transport staff to undertake. But the fact is, many pass holders make trips that would, lets be conservative, be best described as leisure trips.

Regardless, it deflects from the fact that the DSP pay bugger all for the scheme, are unwilling to pay more to transport companies and yet they still issue new passes for the scheme. No sane person can defend the scheme in it's current form and there is no sign of change anytime soon.

Daemonic

BuffyBot wrote: »

Whatever your parents may do, that's merely anecdotal evidence and doesn't bring anything to add weight to the claim above.

I never suggested it was hard fact, just examples of unnecessary trips as the previous poster couldn't imagine what these could entail.

LXFlyer

I'd have to concur - I've certainly seen older people taking trips on the bus/train around the country. When I've spoken to them, the response I've got is that that they do it for the very reason that it is free and gives them an opportunity to have a day out of the house and explore.

To be fair in a way, that was part of the objective of the scheme - to encourage older people to get out of their houses and remain active, rather than simply sitting at home.

RonanM123

I fully understand the "something to do" argument, yes it valid but for people who havn't passes and who can't afford the train fares they can't take a trip for "something to do".

Lets call a spade a spade here OAP's are not the poorest people in society and most could afford to pay a few euro per trip. They have not being affected over the last few years near as much as everybody else.

..and what about the outcry when Grandma Jones is left behind at station X missing her vital puppy to cure her of cancer of the puppy? Not workable, really.

You usually get a few weeks notice from HSE and if there was cases like this, take your letter with you on the day and you will be allowed to travel.

To be fair in a way, that was part of the objective of the scheme - to encourage older people to get out of their houses and remain active, rather than simply sitting at home.

Agree but the objective wasn't to have 1.1 million passes issued to people. Single mothers, people with so called "disabilities". It's insane that people who are able to driver and have a disability are allowed a pass. If you can't drive because of a disability fine you should have passes. Our social welfare system is a free for all.

bmaxi

RonanM123 wrote: »

Lets call a spade a spade here OAP's are not the poorest people in society and most could afford to pay a few euro per trip. They have not being affected over the last few years near as much as everybody else.


.

Rather a sweeping statement. Do you know this to be a fact, can you supply any statistics to support this or are you basing it on the blue hair retired civil servant or CEO etc.?
I think, if you bothered to research it, you'd find that State pensioners have been severely impacted upon by the cuts and also by the general rise in the cost of living and to try to suggest otherwise is bunkum.

dowlingm

Compare to the energy and phone subsidies. Most OAPs will pay a bit over the subsidy given - it is not a unlimited consumption free service. If OAPs had access to say 10 local journeys a week and 2-4 national journeys a month, would that be harsh?

Fred Swanson

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bmaxi

dowlingm wrote: »

Compare to the energy and phone subsidies. Most OAPs will pay a bit over the subsidy given - it is not a unlimited consumption free service. If OAPs had access to say 10 local journeys a week and 2-4 national journeys a month, would that be harsh?

Firstly, only urban dwellers have local services. Secondly, do you propose to reduce the subsidy paid to transport companies for providing the service, if so where will, let's say BE, IE and DB make up the shortfall from? They can't operate within budget as it is and to reduce the subsidy would only lead to fare rises, job cuts and service cuts or do you propose the Government should take away free travel from OAPs and maintain the subsidy, or that CIE should maintain services as they stand without it?
Leave OAPs alone, they've done their bit, instead maybe concentrate on removing subsidies from those malingerers who haven't worked a day in their lives and those women who can't keep their knees together after two cans of Dutch Gold.

loyatemu

dowlingm wrote: »

Compare to the energy and phone subsidies. Most OAPs will pay a bit over the subsidy given - it is not a unlimited consumption free service. If OAPs had access to say 10 local journeys a week and 2-4 national journeys a month, would that be harsh?

how many OAPs are making more journeys than that though? i.e. would it make any difference?

Tickityboo

I'm sure there are plenty of OAPs who knew how to bleed the system aswell.
They didn't all work for 40 or 50 years paying taxes.
There are generations of the same families who never worked a day in their lives!!
All those skangers going around now will be OAPs one day and people will say they deserve to be looked after because they earned it.!!
Not all the OAPs going around now earned it.!!

flutered

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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as she has health issues she cannot galavant aroud the country, some folks like to travel quite a lot around ireland, a neighbour has been to every town and city in ireland in the past two years, the only time the
neighbour is home is to eat make the sambos sleep and fill the flask, then away again the following day, nare a bob is spent during these excursions.

dowlingm

bmaxi wrote: »

Firstly, only urban dwellers have local services. Secondly, do you propose to reduce the subsidy paid to transport companies for providing the service, if so where will, let's say BE, IE and DB make up the shortfall from? They can't operate within budget as it is and to reduce the subsidy would only lead to fare rises, job cuts and service cuts or do you propose the Government should take away free travel from OAPs and maintain the subsidy, or that CIE should maintain services as they stand without it?

If the Government paid a corporate rate per warrant issued as opposed to a block grant which reflects nowhere near the cost of the service then the money amount wouldn't have to fall much.

As for "leave the OAPs alone" - considering the many cuts to services OAPs will face in the next few years, I'd rather the government concentrated on those rather than an unlimited entitlement to travel.

_Kaiser_

I doubt OAP's on the state pension using the bus/train for a day trip for something to do is the issue.

Surely the bigger problem is the "others" who seem to qualify for free transport?

Peppa Pig

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Surely the bigger problem is the "others" who seem to qualify for free transport?

I keep hearing this and admit I am not 100% sure who these "others" are. I have read through the lines and have an idea but can someone actually clarify it for me.
We have OAPs and people on disability pensions who automatically get them. Who else can qualify for them?

StreetLight

Drug addicts are somehow classed as disabled, so they qualify on the basis of their income from state benefits.

VONSHIRACH

As well as OAP's, people on invalidity pension and disability allowance qualify for the free travel pass (FTP). Also, someone who receives carer's allowance. This includes people with serious illness and also the self-inflicted ailments eg the junkie. Remember though, that a carer with a FTB is caring for a person genuinely ill or incapitated maybe with cancer, dementia, severe mental handicap etc. I know someone who had a difficult cancer experience, just got through it, and the looks and reaction they got when they showed the FTB to some Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann personnel was terrible. Cancer patients have to travel from Wesport and Donegal etc to Dublin for treatments. Outwardly, person looked reasonably ok as treatment had ended, but inside was a different story, multiple surgeries, side-effects etc

Even in my circle of neighbours/friends I have the following examples...

Invalidity Pension - person unable to work, heart issues and weekly permanent kidney dialysis. Has a FTP with spouse.

Carer's Allowance - cancer suffererer cared for by spouse. FTP issued to carer.

Carer's Allowance - sibling cared for elderly terminal cancer sibling. FTP issued to carer.

Incapacitated person in nursing home - unable to use FTP for many years.

Person - has never used the FTP since qualified as OAP 10 years ago, prefers to drive!


On the negative side, I also know of a person who cared for a terminally ill relative a good few years ago and still use their FTP pass.

In this techologically advanced age, the FTP should be barcoded to be scanned for bus/rail/luas travel. Travel data would be very useful and the FTP scheme could be overhauled and cleaned up. Any stolen/lost/invalid FTP's could be just cancelled and rendered useless. With accurate user data, a fairer model for the travel companies, DSP and users could be implemented.