Free travel passes not to be touched in budget - Minister Burton

odds_on

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You have control over where you live and not the Social Welfare department.

Would the peak ban effect you and as a pass holder given a choice would you prefer to pay a fee per journey and use it all times or travel off peak for free or have a peak travel fee only.

PS - Mods its a genuine question and not saying anything about him having a pass or for what reason.

It would affect me. I am retired and I do some voluntary work about 70 kms from where I live.

I have to catch a bus at 8 am to get me to the train station. At 9 am I get the train (after 25 minute wait). Finally, at 10 am I have to get a bus to my final destination which takes another 25 minutes. The meeting is from 11 - 1 pm and then I have to do the return journey, getting home at 4.15 pm.

For the train, I get a day return ticket - but, if I happen to lose it, I am not worried as I just present my pass and I get another.

To be quite honest, I would be happy to pay a nominal price instead of the free pass. This once a week journey is about the only time I use my pass as I live in a small town /large village where I do my shopping as I absolutely refuse to shop in towns/cities where there is only pay parking.

Incidentally, I chose a place to live that has travel connections and not completely rural where a car would be needed.

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

So a husband and wife travelling on an early train or bus to Dublin for a hospital appointment will pay at least €26.60 while their city counterparts will most likely travel free as they will be able to travel off-peak to the same appointment.

Sorry I missed your other question, no it would not affect me but if I was a pass holder I would expect that it would be free travel unrestricted as it is now because that is the only way the scheme works countrywide, but I would hope that the rules would change immediately to oblige all pass holders to carry photo id(anything except a driving licence, as they can be bought from the same pubs that licences are sold in!) or be refused travel.

People can't understand how I can want mandatory photo ID but then expect transport staff to be reprimanded for overstepping their authority by demanding photo ID but is is just that all pass holders who present for travel are deemed to be the people they claim to be as well as eligible by virtue of possession of the pass and if staff have doubts they must follow procedure as set out by the scheme, they should ask for a sample of signature. It is not within their authority or remit to ask or know why a pass holder has their free travel.

You expect a lot for nothing, newsflash that was fine a few years ago but is not now and will change sooner or lather. I did also say that if its for Health reasons it should be free and all you need to do is bring a letter on the day and show. It should not be free for people to travel to Dublin for example to have some lunch. If you can afford lunch out you can afford to pay the travel expenses.

Good to see you want ID asked for across the board but while its not officially here you have a problem with staff asking for it. If you want it so badly why have with IE staff asking for it.

Once the new ID cards are rolled out it will solve the ID problem.

Lepidoptera

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There is no need for free travel for anyone

Need can be a subjective term, and it depends on the context in which you are using it. Does a society need to provide free travel for people? No. Are there people in society who need free travel in order to get on with an acceptable standard of living? Absolutely.

There are of course people who would be able to pay for travel. There are also people who might be able to pay for travel, but only if they sacrificed other things they might need. Then, there are people who simply would not be able to afford to travel and would fall through the cracks. There are already many people falling through the cracks as it is for various reasons. Helping some of the more vulnerable members of society access their community is a valuable service.

People assume paying for travel would be possible and quote a few prices as if that settles the matter. Affordability is both relative and only one factor. What is cheap or manageable to someone in this thread is beyond the means of another. This does not factor in the frequency of journeys - anyone who has ever suffered from, cared for, or worked with someone with a disability requiring continual medical care will know how often these visits are required. If someone is unable to work because of this disability (or is a pensioner), sources of income are extremely limited.

A society does need to look after its more vulnerable members, but it is the better for it. It does come with problems of its own, but it's not the black and white issue it's being presented as in this thread. Things are not quite as simple as "Travel is cheap, people can afford it; I saw people and couldn't determine their disability; I have anecdotes of frivolous travel, therefore it's bad." This is a big and complex issue because things like travel and basic transportation, disabilities, old age, and welfare are important issues. However, in general, having a population that can access and participate in the community across the spectrum, rather than just those who can afford it, is a worthwhile endeavour.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You expect a lot for nothing, newsflash that was fine a few years ago but is not now and will change sooner or lather. I did also say that if its for Health reasons it should be free and all you need to do is bring a letter on the day and show. It should not be free for people to travel to Dublin for example to have some lunch. If you can afford lunch out you can afford to pay the travel expenses.

Good to see you want ID asked for across the board but while its not officially here you have a problem with staff asking for it. If you want it so badly why have with IE staff asking for it.

Once the new ID cards are rolled out it will solve the ID problem.

I would also have an issue with any other body or company overstepping their authority or operating beyond their remit.

I expect the same as many others as we are paying for all these services with our taxes. Bring a letter on the day to get free travel?? that would cost so much in administration between the HSE and transport companies it would cost more than it would save.

All this is irrelevant at the moment as the minister has stated that the free travel scheme will not be touched but I suspect that things like the free phone electricity and gas could be gone as well as the fuel allowance.

Lepidoptera

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I did also say that if its for Health reasons it should be free and all you need to do is bring a letter on the day and show.

A person's health is a very personal and private matter. No one should be required to produce a letter to a random transport employee declaring they are traveling for a health reason or to a medical appointment or whatever. Confidentiality laws exist in part to protect people from having their medical history and needs revealed in a public manner. This also opens up the door to huge potential abuses and discrimination, which again, is part of the reason for medical confidentiality.

Lepidoptera

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Ways around it, HSE could easily add a line at the end of the letter saying appointment on x day at x time that could be cut off the letter.

No, you're missing the point. It's not just the letter's content that is the issue. It is being required to show any kind of letter concerning your medical health as a form of identification to a non-medical employee, who is not bound by any of the confidentiality laws that medical staff are, in order to access a service to get to that appointment.

Your health, and the confidentiality of matters concerning your health, are legally protected, and rightly so. It is not a random transport official's business what your medical issues may be, what hospitals you may be attending or services you may be using. Most hospitals and clinics and services have their own identifying letterhead. It ripe for abuse and discrimination.

Cookie_Monster

Lepidoptera wrote: »

Are there people in society who need free travel in order to get on with an acceptable standard of living? Absolutely.

Why? And why is there only the perceived need in Ireland, other EU countries are happy to simply subsidise user groups but not provide a blanket free policy.

n97 mini

Lepidoptera wrote: »

Are there people in society who need free travel in order to get on with an acceptable standard of living? Absolutely.

No such thing as free travel. Your question should really be:
Are there people in society who need unlimited travel paid for by someone else in order to get on with and acceptable standard of living?

Gatling

n97 mini wrote: »

No such thing as free travel. Your question should really be:
Are there people in society who need( unlimited travel) paid for by someone else in order to get on with and acceptable standard of living?

This us where one of the issues come from oh these Scrounger's traveling every day up and down the length of the country for leisure ,
Let's looks at the figures 754000 issued passes according to SW now if each pass covers a partner,spouse, co habitant /other
That adds up to 1.5 million ,
Figures bandied around say 1.1 million they think ,

If the 1 million pass holders travel take several journeys a day at the maximum bus and train fair's that's a few million euro a day in lost revenue a day for CIE who do actually do get payments for providing the service ,
Yet Dublin bus and its unions say it costs them 11 million a year but that doesn't sound right at all for , then unions of DB say scrap the pass's then our members do not have to have any cuts to the pay ,all claiming hardship ,
As for providing letters explaining a medical condition/s to a bus driver or train conductors is this 1939 Germany didn't think so ,
They have started the process to change the pass system its going to take time but I get the feeling even if they fix all the problems people are still going to bitch and moan

lucernarian

I think there is a lot of scope for basic reforms of the system, in particular using photo I.D. as a compulsory matter and offering Leap or smartcard functionality.

It would be great if there was a refund scheme instead for outpatient appointments or doctor's appointments even where a standardised form is stamped by the healthcare professionals involved and this be used either as a temporary free travel pass type document or (in my mind preferably) as a means to get a refund of the costs from the HSE or DSP etc, retrospectively.

Lepidoptera

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why? And why is there only the perceived need in Ireland, other EU countries are happy to simply subsidise user groups but not provide a blanket free policy.

Why is an enormous and complicated question that I think goes well beyond the scope of free travel passes. Answering why involves looking at the structure of societies and cultures and economies and welfare and variety of human life experiences in general, but essentially, in all societies there will be more vulnerable members. They will be in that state for any number of reasons, and you can judge them for it or not. More importantly, a society as a whole can choose the extent to which it wishes to help these members and how much opportunity they have to achieve a reasonable minimum quality of life.

As for the second part, I have not specified that this only applies to Irish society but have stated it applies to society in general. The ability to access and participate in one's community is a human need in any society and not a unique trait of an Irish one. The manner in which other countries deal with and accommodate this need will of course differ, and some places will do it better than others. Different societies have different structures, and you cannot look at transportation policies and costs as if they exist in a vacuum. Some places might have have subsidised travel, but they also might have further supports in place to support people, or how their culture and geography and all the other myriad aspects of that society contribute will change the picture.

Or, those who cannot afford to pay for travel, including subsidised travel, simply fall through the cracks, and those who can afford to but would have to sacrifice for it will not travel unless it is an emergency and become isolated, have health issues that could have potentially resolved earlier become more serious, etc, and in general live under a reasonable standard of living for that society and be unable to participate in their community.

Social welfare - and by that I mean it more in the actual sense of the term, the welfare of a society, not the government offices - isn't really a yes or no kind of thing. There are different levels of participation, and different measures that can be taken. This is one that Irish society offers which other countries do not, and it is a good idea. Perfect implementation? No, but a benefit to the welfare of the Irish community as a whole.

n97 mini wrote: »

No such thing as free travel. Your question should really be:
Are there people in society who need unlimited travel paid for by someone else in order to get on with and acceptable standard of living?

You are using the word free in different contexts as if they are interchangeable to confuse the argument. Are there people who need travel to be free for them so that they can achieve an acceptable standard of living? Yes. Does this mean the travel is free in every sense? Of course not.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is it right that people in rural areas and in regional towns and cities should have to pay much more because of the distances than those in the capital city?

YES, because they live further away.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is it not the general consensus that most free travel journeys are frivolous and made without good reason? If we are to believe this then any restriction or charge should result in a major drop in the numbers using the services resulting in services being reduced pay being cut and jobs lost.

Im sure that anyone travelling on a pass are doing it for a good reason no matter what it is and its nobodies business apart from the pass holder and the Welfare as to why that person has it.
As it is, the majority of people travelling at peak times are your commuters going to and from work. The majority of those travelling inbetween those times are pass holders and tourists.
If they took the passes away from everyone then the Rosslare service would be in danger of ceasing and the Belfast and Sligo ones wouldnt be that far behind.
OAP's , Visually Impaired , wheelchair users and the mentally handicapped and their relevant companions and carers shouldnt be touched with the carers and companions only travelling with them with no time restrictions.
The others should be charged along the lines of student fares which is a big reduction as it is. If they can afford gym membership, shop at Brown Thomas, run a business ,cars ,iphones, etc then they can afford the reduced transport fares.
This i feel the ministers should look into before the budget.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Im sure that anyone travelling on a pass are doing it for a good reason no matter what it is and its nobodies business apart from the pass holder and the Welfare as to why that person has it.
As it is, the majority of people travelling at peak times are your commuters going to and from work. The majority of those travelling inbetween those times are pass holders and tourists.
If they took the passes away from everyone then the Rosslare service would be in danger of ceasing and the Belfast and Sligo ones wouldnt be that far behind.
OAP's , Visually Impaired , wheelchair users and the mentally handicapped and their relevant companions and carers shouldnt be touched with the carers and companions only travelling with them with no time restrictions.
The others should be charged along the lines of student fares which is a big reduction as it is. If they can afford gym membership, shop at Brown Thomas, run a business ,cars ,iphones, etc then they can afford the reduced transport fares.
This i feel the ministers should look into before the budget.

How are you or anyone else to know who is deserving though? MAny people have iphones/ipads and where they shop is not anyone's business, the free travel for most is already means tested because it is issued in conjunction with a means tested payment.

From your post it appears you are just jealous of those with free travel but that is ok. Maybe some day you too will rely on handouts from the state!

dowlingm

Lepidoptera wrote: »

Preventing the elderly and people suffering from disabilities from traveling at times generally required for things like hospital/medical appointments or the like is unwise.

But the answer to this (genuine) problem is not to give an unlimited benefit to free travel, but rather to guarantee access to health service via travel warrants issued by the consultant's office in conjunction with the letter advising of the time of appointment. The return date could be fixed or within a range depending on whether the appointment was in- or out-patient in nature.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

How are you or anyone else to know who is deserving though? MAny people have iphones/ipads and where they shop is not anyone's business, the free travel for most is already means tested because it is issued in conjunction with a means tested payment.

From your post it appears you are just jealous of those with free travel but that is ok. Maybe some day you too will rely on handouts from the state!

You have clearly missed the point Foggy.

Jealous??? How on earth do you work that one out .

n97 mini

dowlingm wrote: »

But the answer to this (genuine) problem is not to give an unlimited benefit to free travel, but rather to guarantee access to health service via travel warrants issued by the consultant's office

Not necessary. Just issue appointments that won't require peak time travel to those on FTPes.

Gatling

n97 mini wrote: »

Not necessary. Just issue appointments that won't require peak time travel to those on FTPes.

And how will that work exactly

n97 mini

Gatling wrote: »

And how will that work exactly

Seriously?

"How far away do you live?"
"Two hours"
"Are you on a FTP?"
"Yes"
"Ok, your appointment is for 2pm on......."

"How far away do you live?"
"Two hours"
"Are you on a FTP?"
"No"
"Ok, your appointment is for 9am on......."

"How far away do you live?"
"10 mins"
"Are you on a FTP?"
"Yes"
"Ok, your appointment is for 10am on......."

"How far away do you live?"
"10 mins"
"Are you on a FTP?"
"No"
"Ok, your appointment is for 9am on......."

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Not necessary. Just issue appointments that won't require peak time travel to those on FTPes.

Or they can pay during peak time if there is a restriction ?

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Seriously?

"How far away do you live?"
"Two hours"
"Are you on a FTP?"
"Yes"
"Ok, your appointment is for 2pm on......."

"How far away do you live?"
"Two hours"
"Are you on a FTP?"
"No"
"Ok, your appointment is for 9am on......."

"How far away do you live?"
"10 mins"
"Are you on a FTP?"
"Yes"
"Ok, your appointment is for 10am on......."

"How far away do you live?"
"10 mins"
"Are you on a FTP?"
"No"
"Ok, your appointment is for 9am on......."

If only it was that easy to get an appointment.

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If only it was that easy to get an appointment.

Medical card......

Gatling

Seriously what planet do you think that would actually work ,

In the real world planet earth ,
Island of Ireland

100's and in cases thousands of people expected to wait be given hospital and Dr appointment's based off a time table for a travel pass ,
Now I've personally had to wait over 4 years to see a specialist due to 2 degenerative diseases now if I had to wait for that appointment based off a off peak time to use Ft pass I'd probably be dead and buried a long time while waiting for my 10 am appointment to come around

starlit

Its only fair for pensioners and disability that free travel pass in place not everyone drives or have good health to do so.

BuffyBot

n97 mini wrote:

Seriously?

"How far away do you live?"..

Not even remotely realistic, or workable.

Anyway as this appears to be descending into the same old cycle of arguments, with little new being brought to the table I'm coming close to calling time on this thread unless something original is brought to it.

Gatling

As it actually stands the process of sorting the ftp mess has started with the new cards we will hopefully see and improved system and a lot less fraud ,

Cookie_Monster

doovdela wrote: »

Its only fair for pensioners and disability that free travel pass in place not everyone drives or have good health to do so.

explain how it is fair that they receive free rather than subsidised travel, especially when you take into account all the myriad other payments and benefits received.

Conflats

Would a reform of the Free travel pass not be better,

i.e make it electronic something like a leap card kind of system where is has to be scanned all the time and say limit its use that way.

Now I dont believe the pensioners should be targeted as they have done there bit for society

the only ones who should have one are the disabled, terminally ill and pensioners anyone else tough luck and deal with it go find a way. If your unemployed you should say be given a pass that is valid for 1 day kind of thing and you have to collect in the local social welfare office to get you to from a job interview that you can only get if you present proof you need one.


Yes it might lead to less money going to C.I.E and other operators who run routes as part of the FTP scheme, but overall its not about keeping them afloat its about saving money in a very generous welfare society

Owryan

I dont get why people think pensioners should get one automatically

Gatling

Owryan wrote: »

I dont get why people think pensioners should get one automatically

Probably down to the presumption that they help built this country and worked all the lives and paid taxes so asking them to pay for bus and train fair on there state pension is snt right , plenty of pensioners that haven't worked a day in there lives ,and plenty of pensioners have more than one pension to live off and yet they (most) claim poverty and hardship

n97 mini

BuffyBot wrote: »

Not even remotely realistic, or workable.

In your opinion. Proper scheduling and planning software would make it workable, in my opinion.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

OldNotWIse

Gatling wrote: »

Probably down to the presumption that they help built this country and worked all the lives and paid taxes so asking them to pay for bus and train fair on there state pension is snt right , plenty of pensioners that haven't worked a day in there lives ,and plenty of pensioners have more than one pension to live off and yet they (most) claim poverty and hardship

What about the pensioners (like my father for example) who have worked all their lives? My Dad had his first job at 13. That's 53 years solid labour. He never took a penny off the state. Would you deny him a ftp? Because I'd rather he get it than some sc*mbag who wouldnt know a days work if it hit him in the face.

Tickityboo

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What about the pensioners (like my father for example) who have worked all their lives? My Dad had his first job at 13. That's 53 years solid labour. He never took a penny off the state. Would you deny him a ftp? Because I'd rather he get it than some sc*mbag who wouldnt know a days work if it hit him in the face.

But those scumbags you talk about will be pensioners someday!!

Gatling

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What about the pensioners (like my father for example) who have worked all their lives? My Dad had his first job at 13. That's 53 years solid labour. He never took a penny off the state. Would you deny him a ftp? Because I'd rather he get it than some sc*mbag who wouldnt know a days work if it hit him in the face.

Not what I'm saying at all ,
Not every pensioner needs an ftp I've seen plenty of pensioner's driving big cars and hanging around golf clubs,
Again not all pensioners do or can but plenty don't need any state assistance

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Gatling

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Means test them for pensioners and end the blanket entitlement.

Fully agree

Hilly Bill

Tickityboo wrote: »

But those scumbags you talk about will be pensioners someday!!

And some of these Pensioners were scumbags in their day.

OldNotWIse

Gatling wrote: »

Not what I'm saying at all ,
Not every pensioner needs an ftp I've seen plenty of pensioner's driving big cars and hanging around golf clubs,
Again not all pensioners do or can but plenty don't need any state assistance

My dad neither owns a "big car" nor hangs around golf clubs, and since he is living on the state pension, I'm sure he'd pass a means test with flying colours. Tbh, why not means test all sw payments? I know its political suicide to suggest, but why are there groups of people who get things simply because they tick box a,b or c? Have everyone means tested - there'll be more money in the pot for those who actually need it.

Gatling

OldNotWIse wrote: »

My dad neither owns a "big car" nor hangs around golf clubs, and since he is living on the state pension, I'm sure he'd pass a means test with flying colours. Tbh, why not means test all sw payments? I know its political suicide to suggest, but why are there groups of people who get things simply because they tick box a,b or c? Have everyone means tested - there'll be more money in the pot for those who actually need it.

I think that's a debate for another forum

foggy_lad

Conflats wrote: »

Would a reform of the Free travel pass not be better,

i.e make it electronic something like a leap card kind of system where is has to be scanned all the time and say limit its use that way.

This is on the way.

Now I dont believe the pensioners should be targeted as they have done there bit for society

the only ones who should have one are the disabled, terminally ill and pensioners anyone else tough luck and deal with it go find a way. If your unemployed you should say be given a pass that is valid for 1 day kind of thing and you have to collect in the local social welfare office to get you to from a job interview that you can only get if you present proof you need one.


Yes it might lead to less money going to C.I.E and other operators who run routes as part of the FTP scheme, but overall its not about keeping them afloat its about saving money in a very generous welfare society

The savings made when the extra administration and costs are accounted for would be so low that it really is not worth the uproar, there are far easier ways to save millions more from the social protection budget.

Hilly Bill

Any savings are better than none.

dowlingm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What about the pensioners (like my father for example) who have worked all their lives? My Dad had his first job at 13. That's 53 years solid labour. He never took a penny off the state. Would you deny him a ftp? Because I'd rather he get it than some sc*mbag who wouldnt know a days work if it hit him in the face.

Why should he also get his full phone bill paid? His electricity bill? His food bill? His bar tab? What other things should the state be paying in full and without limit? Because that's what we're talking about here.

FloatingVoter

Pensioners voice their opinion at the ballot box - not internet forums. That's the one and only one reason why they got the free travel pass and why they remain untouchable by elected politicians.
The rest of you can stay cool, forget to vote, set up Facebook pages complaining about banana republics and not matter a whit.

murphaph

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Pensioners voice their opinion at the ballot box - not internet forums. That's the one and only one reason why they got the free travel pass and why they remain untouchable by elected politicians.
The rest of you can stay cool, forget to vote, set up Facebook pages complaining about banana republics and not matter a whit.

This. Not much more to say really! Vote people. vote!

n97 mini

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Pensioners voice their opinion at the ballot box - not internet forums. That's the one and only one reason why they got the free travel pass and why they remain untouchable by elected politicians.
The rest of you can stay cool, forget to vote, set up Facebook pages complaining about banana republics and not matter a whit.

Probably the best post I've ever seen in C&T.

OldNotWIse

dowlingm wrote: »

Why should he also get his full phone bill paid? His electricity bill? His food bill? His bar tab? What other things should the state be paying in full and without limit? Because that's what we're talking about here.

eh....what? Who suggested a bar tab? Thats not what we're talking about here. But by all means allow your exagerrations to take you to whatever fairytale land you want. Our parents paid for theirs remember? And someone will pay for us, thats how the system works. Its not "us v them" unless you're a complete simpleton. Fact remains that he has worked far more and contributed far more to society than some of the sc*mbags on welfare. How many of them have worked solidly for 50 odd years? Yeah, didnt think so. People living with their partners and claiming they're not. people getting a monthly payment because they procreated, irrespective of the fact that they might be on a six figure salary, the only recently abolished communion payout?

Owryan

It shouldnt matter whether anyone has worked for 50 years or has never worked. No one should have free travel unless for compelling medical reasons .

By all means let there be a subsidised fare system but free ?, no way.

OldNotWIse

Owryan wrote: »

It shouldnt matter whether anyone has worked for 50 years or has never worked. No one should have free travel unless for compelling medical reasons .

By all means let there be a subsidised fare system but free ?, no way.

Well he is due to have pretty much everything below the neck replaced in the next year...if that helps In fact we slag him about being the "bionic man" - shameful I know.

LXFlyer

Owryan wrote: »

It shouldnt matter whether anyone has worked for 50 years or has never worked. No one should have free travel unless for compelling medical reasons .

By all means let there be a subsidised fare system but free ?, no way.

This frankly is the nub of the issue - what sort of society do you want.

I suspect a large number would disagree with your viewpoint.

As I've posted above, one of the aims of the free travel scheme was to encourage people to get out and about, and as a result of a healthier lifestyle reduce pressure on our health services.

There's a lot more to this than just simply making sweeping statements.