Free travel passes not to be touched in budget - Minister Burton

n97 mini

Here's a radical idea. Make it a contributory travel pass. You pay during your working life a small fee towards it, say 50c a week, but only if you want to. Then when you retire you get it if you've paid for it. If you haven't you don't. Could actually be a money spinner for the state if done the right way.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Here's a radical idea. Make it a contributory travel pass. You pay during your working life a small fee towards it, say 50c a week, but only if you want to. Then when you retire you get it if you've paid for it. If you haven't you don't. Could actually be a money spinner for the state if done the right way.

I think we already do - that's what PRSI is for.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

I think we already do - that's what PRSI is for.

We thought our taxes were paying for local services too, until we got property tax.

dowlingm

lxflyer wrote: »

As I've posted above, one of the aims of the free travel scheme was to encourage people to get out and about, and as a result of a healthier lifestyle reduce pressure on our health services.

If that's the case then the proponents should be able to produce follow-up studies detailing the benefits. I'm not for shut-ins but I see all sorts of state services cut to and into the bone while this unlimited benefit remains. We're probably doing a lot worse to our society to save less money.

LXFlyer

dowlingm wrote: »

If that's the case then the proponents should be able to produce follow-up studies detailing the benefits. I'm not for shut-ins but I see all sorts of state services cut to and into the bone while this unlimited benefit remains. We're probably doing a lot worse to our society to save less money.

Let's be honest about it - it is a fairly obvious conclusion.

I'm not saying that the scope of the scheme should not be reviewed, indeed it should, but I think some posters are far too dismissive of the benefits it does bring.

There are benefits that are harder to quantify, but I don't doubt it does improve the quality of life for an awful lot of people, and I think simply suggesting free travel should be completely abolished is an unacceptable suggestion.

Demonique

RonanM123 wrote: »

I fully understand the "something to do" argument, yes it valid but for people who havn't passes and who can't afford the train fares they can't take a trip for "something to do".

Lets call a spade a spade here OAP's are not the poorest people in society and most could afford to pay a few euro per trip. They have not being affected over the last few years near as much as everybody else.

But disabled people have been affected by the cuts over the last few years and they also use the travel pass, why should they be punished because pensioners can afford to pay?

Demonique

Demonique wrote: »

But disabled people have been affected by the cuts over the last few years and they also use the travel pass, why should they be punished because pensioners can afford to pay?

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I doubt OAP's on the state pension using the bus/train for a day trip for something to do is the issue.

Surely the bigger problem is the "others" who seem to qualify for free transport?

So you're saying disabled people using free transport are a problem?

bk wrote: »

Lets make it very simple and clear.

All passes should be credit card style passes with Leap RFID and picture and card holder details on the front of the card.

All pass holders should be required to show the pass (and ID confirmed) when requested by a member of a transport company.

All pass holders should need to tag-on when using Dublin Bus, Dart, Luas, etc.

If any pass holders aren't happy with the above rules then they are quiet entitled to return the pass and pay the normal fare instead.

The FTP is an entitlement, no one pays for it (directly), so the government can set whatever requirements they want in order to have that entitlement.

That would be a good start, but then more should be done:

- No peak travel
- Carer/spouse passes only to be used in conjunction with the spouse/person been cared for.
- Passes to be renowed every 3/5 years. If the person dies, pass disabled, if the person no longer suffering the disability then pass disabled.
- Pass only issued for serious disabilities (blind, wheelchair, etc.).

At one point peak travel wasn't allowed, but it was brought in because, I dunno, all the disabled people who have to travel to training centres and back again in the evening?

Banjoxed

Turn the FTP into a Leap card when the technology is fully rolled out across the country. That way journeys and usage can be tracked.

LXFlyer

That is going to happen.

Hilly Bill

Banjoxed wrote: »

Turn the FTP into a Leap card when the technology is fully rolled out across the country. That way journeys and usage can be tracked.

Thats what the plan is with the new cards, they will have to tag on and off with them. A lot will destroy them by putting it into the barriers like normal tickets.

Cookie_Monster

Demonique wrote: »

But disabled people have been affected by the cuts over the last few years and they also use the travel pass, why should they be punished because pensioners can afford to pay?

Having to pay a niminal fee for your travel is punishment now?

flutered

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Having to pay a niminal fee for your travel is punishment now?

the point has already been made that the disabled have been hit hardest, as basically they have away less disposable income.

foggy_lad

flutered wrote: »

the point has already been made that the disabled have been hit hardest, as basically they have away less disposable income.

Many also have to pay for taxis in order to get to bus stops and train stations when other pensioners are able to walk.

Cookie_Monster

flutered wrote: »

the point has already been made that the disabled have been hit hardest, as basically they have away less disposable income.

a vague claim has been made is all without any backup evidence. and as much as this forum love generalisations, 'disabled' covers a pretty substantial range of conditions, some serious, others with little or no impact on peoples ability to generate income.

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

a vague claim has been made is all without any backup evidence. and as much as this forum love generalisations, 'disabled' covers a pretty substantial range of conditions, some serious, others with little or no impact on peoples ability to generate income.

It is more about the impact on a persons day to day life and even quality of life for many, than their ability to generate income. If that is your only criteria than you will be removing free travel from the mentally handicapped and mentally retarded, people with downs syndrome and other such conditions.the Special Olympics won't be much fun when many of the participants can't afford to get there! Didn't Ireland host the Special Olympics World Games in 2003, how would that have appeared to the world if most Irish athletes were stuck at home because they could not afford the transport to the games?

This is just one aspect of a very complex issue but looking at it as a single expenditure is not giving the free travel scheme its full value.

mickydoomsux

flutered wrote: »

the point has already been made that the disabled have been hit hardest, as basically they have away less disposable income.

There's no actual statistics available for this and most of the "official" claims are coming from special interest groups.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

There's no actual statistics available for this and most of the "official" claims are coming from special interest groups.

In many rural areas in particular disabled people will usually have to get a taxi to their local stop or station before they ever get to use free travel, their travel costs a lot more per journey than for more able-bodied people. Most disabled people require more heat than those more able-bodied, many also require trips to the chiropodist and dentist a lot more than more able-bodied people. For many disabled people there is added cost in most day to day activities.

AlekSmart

mickydoomsux wrote: »

There's no actual statistics available for this and most of the "official" claims are coming from special interest groups.

This is correct,the ONLY study of the Free Travel Scheme dates from 2000 and was carried out by Orlaigh Quinn and TCD's Policy Institute.

(WARNING: The figures used in the report are now hopelessly out-of-date and can only be used as a very rough guide)

http://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/assets/pdf/BP5_Quinn_Free_Schemes.pdf

Even then,it was somewhat hamstrung by the lack of data and the official attitudes prevailing.

Since the inception of the "Free Schemes" in the late 1960's,Irelands social and cultural milleu has altered significantly and whilst many would point to the scheme enabling hundreds of thousands of poor disabled and elderly to lead fulfilling lives,the reality tends to indicate a somewhat lesser element of "necessity" about it's use.

It has taken 14 years,but the imminent introduction of entry validation of the DSP Free Travel Pass (by end of Q4 2015) is the initial step in a more active and robust system of monitoring and supervision,which will serve to maintain the benefits of the FTS for those who ARE genuinely in need of it's benefits.

The alternative,which some appear to favour,is to leave it all alone,which tends to benefit a somewhat different sector of the Community,as is currently being demonstrated in the U.K.........

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/josie-cunningham-taxi-row-how-3747175

Emme

I notice that a significant proportion of people travelling on peak time trains seem to be pensioners. Some may be travelling to medical appointments which is fine but most seem to be on a day out. Many of them are in better physical shape than stressed out commuters and are certainly less tired.

I have seen commuters having to stand for an hour or more on peak trains packed with pensioners doing Christmas shopping in places like BT or Arnotts. When festivals like Bloom are on the same thing happens. I saw a bunch of women getting off a very packed 7.10 from Waterford at Heuston and skipping off to Bloom in the Phoenix Park. Fair play to them but why can't these leisure travellers use off peak trains? The train in question had to leave commuters standing at Newbridge.

The older generation contributed to this country through taxes, sending children to college before free fees and caring for older relatives. They definitely deserve something for this. However not all pensioners get to use their free travel pass. Perhaps it would be more equitable to make pensioners exempt from property tax and water charges. Means test the travel pass so that those who can afford it pay for their tickets. If a spouse is not of pensionable age let him or her pay for their ticket. Many pensioners have working spouses. Otherwise make the travel pass valid for off peak travel only unless the travel is for medical reasons such hospital appointments or visiting a next of kin in hospital. This could be validated with a doctor's note or the letter of appointment for the hospital/clinic in question.

I think one of the reason that certain train lines get run down is the demographic of people living in the area. If an above average number of travellers on a particular line travel free that reduces the viability of that line.

Another point - the groups of people who seem to protest most are pensioners and students. Their reasons for protesting are valid but if they had to hold down pressurized jobs to pay mortgages, taxes and everything else they might not have the time or energy to protest.

foggy_lad

Free travel for carers needs to be removed as those who require a carer with them while travelling are already covered by the companion pass. also might be worth considering off peak travel only for OAP's while the disabled get to keep their full travel.

Also this and other payments like the ESB allowance should be means tested for all eligible applicants imho but the childrens allowance should not be even considered for means testing.

OldNotWIse

Emme wrote: »

I notice that a significant proportion of people travelling on peak time trains seem to be pensioners. Some may be travelling to medical appointments which is fine but most seem to be on a day out. Many of them are in better physical shape than stressed out commuters and are certainly less tired.

I have seen commuters having to stand for an hour or more on peak trains packed with pensioners doing Christmas shopping in places like BT or Arnotts. When festivals like Bloom are on the same thing happens. I saw a bunch of women getting off a very packed 7.10 from Waterford at Heuston and skipping off to Bloom in the Phoenix Park. Fair play to them but why can't these leisure travellers use off peak trains? The train in question had to leave commuters standing at Newbridge.

The older generation contributed to this country through taxes, sending children to college before free fees and caring for older relatives. They definitely deserve something for this. However not all pensioners get to use their free travel pass. Perhaps it would be more equitable to make pensioners exempt from property tax and water charges. Means test the travel pass so that those who can afford it pay for their tickets. If a spouse is not of pensionable age let him or her pay for their ticket. Many pensioners have working spouses. Otherwise make the travel pass valid for off peak travel only unless the travel is for medical reasons such hospital appointments or visiting a next of kin in hospital. This could be validated with a doctor's note or the letter of appointment for the hospital/clinic in question.

I think one of the reason that certain train lines get run down is the demographic of people living in the area. If an above average number of travellers on a particular line travel free that reduces the viability of that line.

Another point - the groups of people who seem to protest most are pensioners and students. Their reasons for protesting are valid but if they had to hold down pressurized jobs to pay mortgages, taxes and everything else they might not have the time or energy to protest.

Means testing I could probably agree with but dictating when the pass can be used? Talk about treating them like second class citizens. I travel to work by bus and there are far more able bodied men flashing passes at the driver than there are pensioners. I see men in their thirties getting on and waving passes. Of course, you cant say anything - they might have a "hidden disability" but its ok to have a go at pensioners. My father worked for fifty years carrying lead and slates up ladders, to support and educate his family and pay his mortgage. He is entitled to his travel pass, and shouldnt need a doctors note to allow him to travel on the bus in the morning ffs

And by the way, many of the protesting pensioners did hold down mortgages and raise large families (and had it a damn sight harder than us poor put upon celtic tiger cubs ever had it).

Geuze

Here is my anecdote:


Person 1: aged in 30s, unemployed, no income, no welfare, retraining in UCD, travelling by BE bus each day

Adult 10 trip fare = 58.42
Student 10 trip fare = 52.72

Tax saver season ticket even less??

Person 1 parents, aged 66+, with 900pw income and 200k on deposit = free travel

Two problems (linked)

(1) Student discounts are too low.

(2) People trying to genuinely help themselves, with no income, pay 50+ pw in travel, while their parents with 900-1000 pw income pay ZERO for the same journey.

MADNESS.

Jamie2k9

No political party has the balls to make any changes to the scheme or even our social welfare system in general. The UK are really making changes to theirs however ours will continue to be a big drain on out public finances.

foggy_lad

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Means testing I could probably agree with but dictating when the pass can be used? Talk about treating them like second class citizens. I travel to work by bus and there are far more able bodied men flashing passes at the driver than there are pensioners.

And by the way, many of the protesting pensioners did hold down mortgages and raise large families (and had it a damn sight harder than us poor put upon celtic tiger cubs ever had it).

Fair enough about the off peak limitation, but someone appearing to be fit and healthy does not mean they are fit enough to work or hold down a job, I know a few people with epilepsy and at least one who cant work or drive or even cycle a bike because although on medication the fits are so violent and sudden there would be no way they can be walking around any workplace safely. as far as disability goes appearances can be very deceiving.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No political party has the balls to make any changes to the scheme or even our social welfare system in general. The UK are really making changes to theirs however ours will continue to be a big drain on out public finances.

All they are doing in the UK is cutting off people in genuine need!

Imagine asking a double leg amputee how far they can travel unaided by crutches or prosthetics and refusing them because they can manage to cover a few metres on their ass across the floor!

Hopefully rotten bastards like that never get any say in how decisions are made on disability here.

OldNotWIse

foggy_lad wrote: »

Fair enough about the off peak limitation, but someone appearing to be fit and healthy does not mean they are fit enough to work or hold down a job, I know a few people with epilepsy and at least one who cant work or drive or even cycle a bike because although on medication the fits are so violent and sudden there would be no way they can be walking around any workplace safely. as far as disability goes appearances can be very deceiving.

I can understand that, but I think its absolute hypocrisy that the same people who will defend those passengers will extend such vitriol to pensioners simply because they are pensioners, and expect them to be holed up during peak hours and begrudge them going to "expensive" stores. Perhaps they'd sleep better at night if the OAP's alighted at charity shops...or soup kitchens. Many's the dole scrounger sporting Nike and Adidas that I cannot afford, but I dont think that's a justification to boot them off the bus until 10am...

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

foggy_lad

With the new free travel version of the new welfare services card there is an opportunity to have a three strikes rule where those engaging in anti-social behaviour can be given three chances and then their free travel removed.

OldNotWIse

Geuze wrote: »

Here is my anecdote:


Person 1: aged in 30s, unemployed, no income, no welfare, retraining in UCD, travelling by BE bus each day

Adult 10 trip fare = 58.42
Student 10 trip fare = 52.72

Tax saver season ticket even less??

Person 1 parents, aged 66+, with 900pw income and 200k on deposit = free travel

Two problems (linked)

(1) Student discounts are too low.

(2) People trying to genuinely help themselves, with no income, pay 50+ pw in travel, while their parents with 900-1000 pw income pay ZERO for the same journey.

MADNESS.

what

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

All they are doing in the UK is cutting off people in genuine need!

Imagine asking a double leg amputee how far they can travel unaided by crutches or prosthetics and refusing them because they can manage to cover a few metres on their ass across the floor!

Hopefully rotten bastards like that never get any say in how decisions are made on disability here.

They are capping payments and cutting people off who are wrongfully claiming. Nothing wrong with real change and its very popular with the workers of the UK.

Over here was have:
SF - everybody will be rich when we get power
LAB - we care about people on welfare and not normal working people
FF - well make you own choice (vote calculating)
FG - willing to rock the boat but not to much to much for a backlash
Ind - parish pump

OAP's splash the cash on board for snacks which when booked early will cost as much as a train ticket online.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They are capping payments and cutting people off who are wrongfully claiming. Nothing wrong with real change and its very popular with the workers of the UK.

Over here was have:
SF - everybody will be rich when we get power
LAB - we care about people on welfare and not normal working people
FF - well make you own choice (vote calculating)
FG - willing to rock the boat but not to much to much for a backlash
Ind - parish pump

OAP's splash the cash on board for snacks which when booked early will cost as much as a train ticket online.

Over the last 5-8 years they have been reviewing all claims in the uk and disallowing those who previously were the most eligible because they are able to walk a few metres at a time etc People who can walk maybe ten meters even though it takes them about 30 minutes to do so are having their disability cut off because they are deemed fit for certain types of employment, they then fail to state what employer looking for an able bodied person is going to take on a person who basically cant walk?

People are milking the system both here and there(the uk has more mobility scooters per head than any other country afaik) but the answer is not to penalise those most in need.

Otherwise we end up like the UKIP party who blame their own failings on the most vulnerable in society.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is more about the impact on a persons day to day life and even quality of life for many, than their ability to generate income. If that is your only criteria than you will be removing free travel from the mentally handicapped and mentally retarded, people with downs syndrome and other such conditions.the Special Olympics won't be much fun when many of the participants can't afford to get there! Didn't Ireland host the Special Olympics World Games in 2003, how would that have appeared to the world if most Irish athletes were stuck at home because they could not afford the transport to the games?

This is just one aspect of a very complex issue but looking at it as a single expenditure is not giving the free travel scheme its full value.

They did a lot of fundraising.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They did a lot of fundraising.

The normal Irish special Olympics that takes place could not proceed if all those taking part and many of the helpers,stewards etc who are also disabled had to pay for their own travel and the same goes for the world games in 2003.

The fundraising and sponsorship all helped and made it possible but so did free travel for many of the participants

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Free travel for carers needs to be removed as those who require a carer with them while travelling are already covered by the companion pass. also might be worth considering off peak travel only for OAP's while the disabled get to keep their full travel.

Also this and other payments like the ESB allowance should be means tested for all eligible applicants imho but the childrens allowance should not be even considered for means testing.

If you mean disabled in the likes of wheelchair users , visually and physical impaired and mentally handicaped etc then ye, they should be left alone and only these should be allowed companions to travel with them and these only to get the passed under the Disabled banner. Get rid of the pass altogether for those who are fit enough to travel on their own especially when they use it to go to work and bring a friend shopping .
Leave the pass alone for the OAP but only allow one person to travel per pass and not companions or spouse and partners. If they want to bring a friend or partner shopping then they should pay like everyone else.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Fair enough about the off peak limitation, but someone appearing to be fit and healthy does not mean they are fit enough to work or hold down a job, I know a few people with epilepsy and at least one who cant work or drive or even cycle a bike because although on medication the fits are so violent and sudden there would be no way they can be walking around any workplace safely. as far as disability goes appearances can be very deceiving.

Id say tough luck on that one, they could always be self employed or work from home or do buying and selling around the country etc.
If the fits are so violent then public transport is not safe for them.

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

With the new free travel version of the new welfare services card there is an opportunity to have a three strikes rule where those engaging in anti-social behaviour can be given three chances and then their free travel removed.

And the first attempt to do this would see CIE, the DSP and whoever else was involved in this decision losing in court for trying to take away someones "entitlement".

I've said it before, once you give someone something in this country it's next to near impossible to take it off them for any reason.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

And the first attempt to do this would see CIE, the DSP and whoever else was involved in this decision losing in court for trying to take away someones "entitlement".

I've said it before, once you give someone something in this country it's next to near impossible to take it off them for any reason.

Well then just use the legislation that is already in place and slap such offenders with a public transport asbo banning them from public transport for a certain length of time to see if that motivates them to amend their ways.

flutered

mickydoomsux wrote: »

There's no actual statistics available for this and most of the "official" claims are coming from special interest groups.

my pension has droped from €213 to €193 since the crash, , also please remember that we have to pay someone to do anything and everything around the home, the add ons have been cut, the cost of the basics has risen, whatever pinicheno kenny says we all partied, i did not party, i did not have the money, i doubt if any other disabled person has partied, how can we work as some on here suggest, a suggestion was made that someone could buy and sell, take a look at adverts.ie, then see what offers are made for items, more importantly, where coulss the stock be bought without money, we can not get a morgage or antything else foe that matter.

BowWow

http://www.thejournal.ie/free-travel-burton-1539854-Jun2014/


Hard to believe its 9 months since she last announced it. You'd swear there was a leadership election or something.........

flutered

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Id say tough luck on that one, they could always be self employed or work from home or do buying and selling around the country etc.
If the fits are so violent then public transport is not safe for them.

the above post is so full of puke and $chite, it is so unreal, straight from fantasy land.

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

the above post is so full of puke and $chite, it is so unreal, straight from fantasy land.

Explain why.

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

my pension has droped from €213 to €193 since the crash, , also please remember that we have to pay someone to do anything and everything around the home, the add ons have been cut, the cost of the basics has risen, whatever pinicheno kenny says we all partied, i did not party, i did not have the money, i doubt if any other disabled person has partied, how can we work as some on here suggest, a suggestion was made that someone could buy and sell, take a look at adverts.ie, then see what offers are made for items, more importantly, where coulss the stock be bought without money, we can not get a morgage or antything else foe that matter.

Now name the free things you get.

Why cant you? A lot of disabled people work.

flutered

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Explain why.

read it slowly with an open mind.

flutered

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Now name the free things you get.

Why cant you? A lot of disabled people work.

if they are pain free then yes.

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

read it slowly with an open mind.

Ye, that explains your reasoning brilliantly. Thanks .

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

if they are pain free then yes.

Always some excuse.

end of the road

QUOTE=Emme;91008752]I think one of the reason that certain train lines get run down is the demographic of people living in the area.[/QUOTE]

in other countries yes, in ireland, well, you know the real reason

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

All they are doing in the UK is cutting off people in genuine need!

Imagine asking a double leg amputee how far they can travel unaided by crutches or prosthetics and refusing them because they can manage to cover a few metres on their ass across the floor!

Hopefully rotten bastards like that never get any say in how decisions are made on disability here.

i'm no fan of the tories, but the situation there seems to me to be due to the outsourcing of means tests to get them done on the cheep?

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They are capping payments and cutting people off who are wrongfully claiming along with many who are in need. Nothing wrong with real change and its very popular with the daily mail readers of the UK and those who are angry at everyone and everything

fixed that for you Jamie

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

fixed that for you Jamie

Nothing to be fixed, Ireland is the best place on the planet to be unemployed once you have a few kids to be the cash cows!