Free travel passes not to be touched in budget - Minister Burton

sasta le

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If you mean disabled in the likes of wheelchair users , visually and physical impaired and mentally handicaped etc then ye, they should be left alone and only these should be allowed companions to travel with them and these only to get the passed under the Disabled banner. Get rid of the pass altogether for those who are fit enough to travel on their own especially when they use it to go to work and bring a friend shopping .
Leave the pass alone for the OAP but only allow one person to travel per pass and not companions or spouse and partners. If they want to bring a friend or partner shopping then they should pay like everyone else.

What is the wage of Matt English and the special olmpics people
Strange its not public knowledge

flutered

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Always some excuse.

as there is always some one who thinks the only person who is right are themselves, so social protection medical advisers are not as medically informed as a boards poster, nor would hospital consultants not be as medically advised, not to mind consultants in methods of pain relief, can you imagne what it is like be told by a consultant in pain relief, to go home and live away the best you can as i cannot do any more for you.

AlekSmart

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Now name the free things you get.

Why cant you? A lot of disabled people work.

Whenever this topic arises for discussion,the views rapidly polarise into either being pro or anti Disabled,Poor and/or OAP.

The reality,however,is somewhat more complex and,as with much in modern Irish society,eventually fall back on how the relevant benefit is to be funded,and therefore WHO is going to fund it.

With approximately 3 Million ADULT's in our Population and a Labour Force of 2,154,000 (http://www.indexmundi.com/ireland/labor_force.html) there is a definite Mathematical problem as to how a universal Free Travel entitlement can be funded for 1,110,000 persons .

Of the c.760,000 Free Travel passes in circulation the majority(>344,000) are now in the possession of NON OAP recipients.

The Quinn study of 2000,did attempt to show the expansion of the original OAP only FT scheme to include recipients of Disability Allowance to be a defining moment in how the viability of the entire scheme could be maintained,however it suited successive Governments to avoid looking too closely at the issue.

A major part of the Free Travel Scheme's funding problem now centre's on how to maintain this entitlement for a large group of people who no longer contribute to ANY of the Social Fund payment systems as they are now Disabled.

David McWilliams set of figures remain,to my eyes,a truly frightening vista,which to most reasonable people cannot be sustained....

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2013/04/04/the-mystery-of-disability

Meanwhile, the number of people leaving the labour force citing a psychological or emotional condition has risen even more dramatically – 88,000 people are now diagnosed with an emotional or psychological condition that is bad enough that they can’t work. This is a 27,000 rise from the same figure in 2006.

McWilliam's article is worth reading in it's entirety,and he does pose the rather pertinent question as to the reasons for this massive and sudden rise in persons disabled enough as to be unable to work (and therefore contribute to funding Social Schemes).

His final paragraph sez it all really......

Discussions on these issues tend to descend very easily into one side screaming “welfare fraud” and the other screaming “legitimate need”. These set pieces rarely produce anything other than reinforcing initial prejudices. However, a reasoned discussion as to why an increasing number of the Irish workforce are deemed unfit to work would seem like a sensible conversation to have.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whenever this topic arises for discussion,the views rapidly polarise into either being pro or anti Disabled,Poor and/or OAP.

The reality,however,is somewhat more complex and,as with much in modern Irish society,eventually fall back on how the relevant benefit is to be funded,and therefore WHO is going to fund it.

With approximately 3 Million ADULT's in our Population and a Labour Force of 2,154,000 (http://www.indexmundi.com/ireland/labor_force.html) there is a definite Mathematical problem as to how a universal Free Travel entitlement can be funded for 1,110,000 persons .

Of the c.760,000 Free Travel passes in circulation the majority(>344,000) are now in the possession of NON OAP recipients.

The Quinn study of 2000,did attempt to show the expansion of the original OAP only FT scheme to include recipients of Disability Allowance to be a defining moment in how the viability of the entire scheme could be maintained,however it suited successive Governments to avoid looking too closely at the issue.

A major part of the Free Travel Scheme's funding problem now centre's on how to maintain this entitlement for a large group of people who no longer contribute to ANY of the Social Fund payment systems as they are now Disabled.

David McWilliams set of figures remain,to my eyes,a truly frightening vista,which to most reasonable people cannot be sustained....

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2013/04/04/the-mystery-of-disability



McWilliam's article is worth reading in it's entirety,and he does pose the rather pertinent question as to the reasons for this massive and sudden rise in persons disabled enough as to be unable to work (and therefore contribute to funding Social Schemes).

His final paragraph sez it all really......

The rise in the number of people diagnosed with an emotional or psychological condition some degree of mental illness or depression that is bad enough that they can’t work is mostly due to certain conditions being included in the list of conditions which if long term can render a person disabled. Many of these people were looked after by family and survived before on JSA and strong medications but it was then possibly rightly decided that someone on such medication was not fit or capable of working due to health and safety concerns and the old "get over it" and "you need to get out more" attitude to mental illness once practiced by the state has thankfully changed!

steveblack

the reason depression is stigmatised in ireland is because we all know of people who have nothing wrong with them, who have faked it for whatever reason. Those who are genuine get lumped in with the fakers.
want time of work, dont want to do a job interview, in ireland its easily solved.
Don’t shave for a week, go to the doctor, pick a spot on the wall and stare at it.Answer all questions with a mumbled don’t know.
These fakers get what they want, the Doctor gets paid, both parties are happy.
These fakes will get the free travel pass, they are the ones who will cause it to collapse and all the genuine people who should have the pass will lose it.

mickydoomsux

steveblack wrote: »

the reason depression is stigmatised in ireland is because we all know of people who have nothing wrong with them, who have faked it for whatever reason. Those who are genuine get lumped in with the fakers.
want time of work, dont want to do a job interview, in ireland its easily solved.
Don’t shave for a week, go to the doctor, pick a spot on the wall and stare at it.Answer all questions with a mumbled don’t know.
These fakers get what they want, the Doctor gets paid, both parties are happy.
These fakes will get the free travel pass, they are the ones who will cause it to collapse and all the genuine people who should have the pass will lose it.

You can lump drug addicts and alcoholics in to that as well.

:pac: "Why do you drink/shoot up?"

:pac: "I'm depressed"

:pac: "You are now considered disabled according to The Big Book. Let's get you signed up for the full-package!"

Emme

AlekSmart, thanks for the David McWilliams link. The figures are frightening. There are some interesting comments and it would take ages to read them all. Here is one of the first:

Wisconsin
April 4, 2013 at 7:45 pm
Welcome to the USA where we have an ever-expanding parasitic under-class on one end and a parasitic vampire class on the other end of the socioeconomic spectrum. At some point, the middle class is going to say no, good and hard. Keep up your good work, David!

Is Ireland getting more like the US? Perhaps the above explains the hardline attitude of Americans towards the weak in society. When too many people feign weakness for financial gain the truly weak lose out.

I wonder if one reason for the increase in people on disability is the decline in working conditions. I wonder is there a link between people leaving work on disability and a bullying culture in their workplace? Employers may be gaining from having employees on contracts instead of permanency but the price may be more people on disability "unable" to work or just "unwilling" to work under certain conditions. Those remaining in work pick up the slack.

It is really discouraging to board a packed evening train home from work exhausted and barely able to function while you file past people sitting down that you strongly suspect have free travel passes. I'm not talking about the elderly here. Some of these people drink on the train and behave in an antisocial manner. I think "why the hell am I killing myself working long hours, leaving the house before 7 and not getting in until after 8 getting more exhausted all the while while these people's benefits are sucking the taxpayer dry?"

I have a chronic illness which leaves me exhausted most of the time despite being on medication. I have had warnings in work due to "lapses in performance" related to my illness. The lapses in performance being that I am unable to work through lunch every day, come in early every morning and stay late every evening. Like everyone else, I have been given extra responsibilities while taking cuts in pay. If I didn't have the work ethic I have I would strongly be tempted to go on disability.

I would only go on disability if I was forced to do so due to ill health. However, having to work harder and longer to pay for Ireland's welfare state increases the chances of this.

Back to the topic. Morning trains are also very packed and many seats are taken up by pensioners using their travel passes. Fair enough. However, this is unsustainable if there isn't sufficient capacity for paying passengers to travel. They will vote with their feet and find alternative ways to travel while those who can travel free will continue to do so as long as they get travel passes.

Hilly Bill

sasta le wrote: »

What is the wage of Matt English and the special olmpics people
Strange its not public knowledge

Dont know him and what has it to do with the post you quoted?

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

as there is always some one who thinks the only person who is right are themselves, so social protection medical advisers are not as medically informed as a boards poster, nor would hospital consultants not be as medically advised, not to mind consultants in methods of pain relief, can you imagne what it is like be told by a consultant in pain relief, to go home and live away the best you can as i cannot do any more for you.

I think you have jumped in without understanding what was being said but explain why you should get free travel.

end of the road

Emme wrote: »

if there isn't sufficient capacity for paying passengers to travel. They will vote with their feet and find alternative ways to travel while those who can travel free will continue to do so as long as they get travel passes.

thats what happens when we have only 3 and 4 car DMUS to work with, and not enough of the bluddy things

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

The rise in the number of people diagnosed with an emotional or psychological condition some degree of mental illness or depression that is bad enough that they can’t work is mostly due to certain conditions being included in the list of conditions which if long term can render a person disabled. Many of these people were looked after by family and survived before on JSA and strong medications but it was then possibly rightly decided that someone on such medication was not fit or capable of working due to health and safety concerns and the old "get over it" and "you need to get out more" attitude to mental illness once practiced by the state has thankfully changed!

So...you would'nt go along with any other possible explanation then....?

Of course, there is also the possibility that some people are seeking to have a condition diagnosed in order to stay on benefits indefinitely and to avoid their long-term benefits becoming conditional on having to go out looking for work.

As McWilliams states,the current level of INCREASE in Disability levels is pointing to something seriously wrong with Irelands people,and it is verging on epidemic proportions....but as he points out....

People on disability don’t show up in any of the places we usually look to see how the economy is doing. But the story of these programmes – who goes on them, and why, and what happens after that – is, to a large extent, an undocumented one.

It is perhaps indicative of how this country operates,that the greatest level of actual documentation on the problem may well be The number of Free Travel Scheme recipients categorized as being in reciept of a "Disability" related benefit....

flutered

perhaps i am wrong in this but does any one in recipt of a state pension gets one, add to that any one over seventy is entitled to one, regardless of income, before last years budget rte six one done a piece on this, a very well dressed elderly couple left their nice simi, took the bus to town for the day, they explained that they sold their car with the savings they were delighted, one pair of their shoes cost more than the weekley payment to a couple on dissibility, never mind the cost od their headgear, scarves and coats, so hear on boards we have folks bitchin about the disabled having free travel and also not working, the couple that i have alluded to are possibly retired civil servants, the core voters that labour are trrying to hang on to, i have a free travel pass, i have used it one this year, to attend the remedial cilinic in dunlaoire, who is the elephant in the room, me or the couple tipping off to cork belfast or where ever for the day, as it also saves them heating the house while out.

Hilly Bill

flutered wrote: »

perhaps i am wrong in this but does any one in recipt of a state pension gets one, add to that any one over seventy is entitled to one, regardless of income, before last years budget rte six one done a piece on this, a very well dressed elderly couple left their nice simi, took the bus to town for the day, they explained that they sold their car with the savings they were delighted, one pair of their shoes cost more than the weekley payment to a couple on dissibility, never mind the cost od their headgear, scarves and coats, so hear on boards we have folks bitchin about the disabled having free travel and also not working, the couple that i have alluded to are possibly retired civil servants, the core voters that labour are trrying to hang on to, i have a free travel pass, i have used it one this year, to attend the remedial cilinic in dunlaoire, who is the elephant in the room, me or the couple tipping off to cork belfast or where ever for the day, as it also saves them heating the house while out.

Nobody on here has bitched about the disabled getting free travel.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nobody on here has bitched about the disabled getting free travel.

That is true, they have just bitched about the disabled being wasters who won't work because they are too lazy, implying that many are cheating the system in some way to get a disability pension or invalidity pension. Or about them owning fancy iPads or mobile phones or being dressed up nice when they go on the bus or train!

monument

Lads, everybody -- cut it out.

starlit

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They are capping payments and cutting people off who are wrongfully claiming. Nothing wrong with real change and its very popular with the workers of the UK.

Over here was have:
SF - everybody will be rich when we get power
LAB - we care about people on welfare and not normal working people
FF - well make you own choice (vote calculating)
FG - willing to rock the boat but not to much to much for a backlash
Ind - parish pump

OAP's splash the cash on board for snacks which when booked early will cost as much as a train ticket online.

You still have the cost of booking a prepaid seat for the train too so often added expenses regardless if people paid full whack for a ticket or use travel pass. So the Government are still getting their money from elsewhere even if it not from price of a train ticket they are pricing it else where to get back their moneys worth! Even to get a cup of tea or coffee on train is pricer than at a restaurant or cafe!

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

That is true, they have just bitched about the disabled being wasters who won't work because they are too lazy, implying that many are cheating the system in some way to get a disability pension or invalidity pension. Or about them owning fancy iPads or mobile phones or being dressed up nice when they go on the bus or train!

You can be sure that there are some out there who are, these are the ones that should be targeted.

Fred Swanson

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No Pants

flutered wrote: »

the couple that i have alluded to are possibly retired civil servants

So what?

Hilly Bill

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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You saying there isnt and they shouldnt be touched?

Fred Swanson

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Snake

road_high wrote: »

Burton is an absolute disaster in SW. At a time when the whole system is ripe for reform she has made no attempt to reform. Just increase the taxes on the rest of us gob****es. God forbid soem of the highest SW rate in the world be cut or scaled regardless of whether you've worked a day in your life or not.
Sorry to go off in a tangent but that Minister is woeful.

Aye cut my welfare, it's not like my baby will go hungry or anything. I can only afford to eat sandwiches this week because AIB took half my money in their quarterly charges, defiantly cut away.

Hilly Bill

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Not at all and havent implied otherwise.

OldNotWIse

GrayFox208 wrote: »

Aye cut my welfare, it's not like my baby will go hungry or anything. I can only afford to eat sandwiches this week because AIB took half my money in their quarterly charges, defiantly cut away.

There are a lot of workers on the breadline too.

squonk

Speaking as a disabled pass holder, I have to say that I think the OAPs deserve their passes. Like any other demographic, you have those who may not need it but others that most definitely do. Also, being elderly, you are more prone to life altering events such as onset of blindness, arthritis etc. Just because someone doesn't need a pass today, doesn't say that they won't need it a month or a year down the road. It's also worth bearing in mind that these people have paid a lifetime of taxes and social welfare contributions. I'm all for them getting something they're earned.

The FTS system for disabled people does need to be nailed down as right now it's too easy for friends/family to use a holder's pass to travel for free. Each pass should uniquely identify it's holder and be non copyable/transferrable in any way. I believe the department are working on that and I support that initiative.

I need my pass as I can't drive. There are times it is useful to bring a companion with me for various reasons. It's not always possible to know when I'll need to bring someone and who I'll need to bring so I would not be supportive of allowing only named companions to be included in the pass scheme. Life's circumstances don't work like that.

I treat having my pass as a privilege and don't take it for granted but it's a great aid to living a normal life. I can and do work so I'm paying my way and contributing back to the system. One of the problems with a disability however is that you never know when circumstances will change and the disability can become worse. I don't take it for granted that I'll be able to work til retirement age. Most likely I will but if past a certain age, my disability becomes worse, the effort/time required to readjust may not be worth it based on my age or responsibility level and then the most logical choice will be to leave the workforce, so the pass becomes even more useful.

In general I think those with a defined physical disability should only be entitled to a disability travel pass. If you have the ability to drive but have some other condition that does not prohibit you from driving, then you shouldn't be granted a pass IMHO.

AlekSmart

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You can be sure that there are some out there who are, these are the ones that should be targeted.

Targetting is not a term we like to see used for anything round these parts,particularly when it's about the Big BAD State trying to impose some order on it's citizens....

But the "Between The Lines" readers should be very active after the Luas 10Th Birthday celebration comments by the Ministerial duo here....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/scrapping-of-free-travel-pass-not-on-the-agenda-30396029.html

Minister Varadakar said that "any suggestion that we are going to take away the free travel pass for pensioners just isn't on the agenda", but that there are issues surrounding it which need to be addressed, particularly in relation to the issue of "fraud and IDs".

The continued fixation of the media on The Free Travel Scheme being a dedicated OAP specific scheme,is a Godsend to Ministers such as Leo V,as it allows them to make statements such as the above,without having to elaborate that "Pensioners" make up less than 50% of the Scheme's Members

Equally interesting is the news that the scheme was "recently reviewed by a working group comprised of members from an interdepartmental government panel and the National Transport Authority",as it confirms the scale of the review.

The essence of the problem was well summed up by Kevin Traynor of the Coach Tourism Transport Council ..."What you have to remember is that while revenues have stayed static, costs haven't," he said. "Costs of diesel, wages, parts and there is more and more legislation coming in to this area so there are even costs associated with that as well." - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/scrapping-of-free-travel-pass-not-on-the-agenda-30396029.html#sthash.pbh34g5n.dpuf

Watch this space.....:)

AlekSmart

squonk wrote: »

The FTS system for disabled people does need to be nailed down as right now it's too easy for friends/family to use a holder's pass to travel for free. Each pass should uniquely identify it's holder and be non copyable/transferrable in any way.I believe the department are working on that and I support that initiative.

I need my pass as I can't drive. There are times it is useful to bring a companion with me for various reasons. It's not always possible to know when I'll need to bring someone and who I'll need to bring so I would not be supportive of allowing only named companions to be included in the pass scheme. Life's circumstances don't work like that.

I treat having my pass as a privilege and don't take it for granted but it's a great aid to living a normal life. I can and do work so I'm paying my way and contributing back to the system. One of the problems with a disability however is that you never know when circumstances will change and the disability can become worse. I don't take it for granted that I'll be able to work til retirement age. Most likely I will but if past a certain age, my disability becomes worse, the effort/time required to readjust may not be worth it based on my age or responsibility level and then the most logical choice will be to leave the workforce, so the pass becomes even more useful.

In general I think those with a defined physical disability should only be entitled to a disability travel pass. If you have the ability to drive but have some other condition that does not prohibit you from driving, then you shouldn't be granted a pass IMHO.

Well said Squonk,as you very clearly identify one of the area's which is under close scrutiny...the nature of the usage of the "Companion" facility.

The granting of Companion status is conditional on fulfilling the DSP's requirements,which are quite clearly outlined here...

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Appendix-1---Free-Travel-Companion-Pass.aspx

The focus has,apparently been on the apparent ease with which the medically certified criteria can be met..

You are aged 66 to 69 inclusive and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone,
You are aged 70 or over and are medically unfit to travel alone,

And,

Free Travel Passholders aged under 66:

You are getting Disability Allowance or Invalidity Pension or Disablement Pension and Incapacity Supplement and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone,

The situation,as I see it,will initially be addressed by a somewhat more restrictive MEDICAL assessment,as this can be done without getting too "Political" and also recognised how the definition of "Disability" has broadened considerably since the inception of the Free Travel Scheme,which it must be pointed out was conceived (and funded) as a specifically AGE related scheme.

What many fail to realize is that the Irish Free Travel Scheme,in terms of it's scope is (I would suggest) unique in Europe,if not the World,yet it remains virtually unmonitored and uncontrolled in it's use...:)

Infini

I'm Generally OK with the Pensioners getting free travel of course I doubt anyone will say no to them after working their whole lives of course but the scheme as a whole really needs sorting out.

The whole disabled area is grossly open to abuse as is the companion addition. As far as I'm concerned the whole scheme needs to rebuilt with the companion system done away with due to the sheer exploitation of it and each person having their own card. As far as pensioners go each should have their own card only for themselves. In addition as far as disabled passes go, only those who are completely disabled and unable to work due to severely crippling disabilities like being unable to walk or see for example should be entitled to a pass for themselves. If your able to work you should be paying your own way regardless of wether your able to drive or not. Might seem harsh but as far as I can see it if your able to work you able to make a living and pay for your own travel needs like every other person who works to pay their way on public transport. Looks ridiculous when your seeing a middle aged person or someone in their 20's and in a suit with a free pass it makes a complete mockery out of genuine people who are paying their own way.

Above all there should be no passes just because your unemployed (ie. no free travel for junkies that wont ever work or bother to try and improve their lives only ruin other peoples) and this is the area that needs clamping down big time as these junkies not only dont pay anything but they tend to act the maggot causing trouble on transport and driving people away.

Fred Swanson

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Infini

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Sadly I've seen people in buisness suits and suitcases coming through stations with passes of various ages so theres definately those out there doing it and taking the mikey out of the honest joe.

foggy_lad

Infini2 wrote: »

Sadly I've seen people in buisness suits and suitcases coming through stations with passes of various ages so theres definately those out there doing it and taking the mikey out of the honest joe.

How do you know they are working? Maybe they are off to some relatives funeral or going to a wedding or just like wearing suits?

mickydoomsux

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I know people who commute to work 5 days a week using their free travel passes.

Fred Swanson

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foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I know people who commute to work 5 days a week using their free travel passes.

Ah yes the "carers" pass plays a big part in this. Many people who are carers for a disabled child or parent or sibling will be entitled to a pass even if they only care for the other person an hour or two a day. They can drop their charge in the morning paper and make them breakfast and then head off to work on the pass and back home again in time to make the tea.

mickydoomsux

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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What rules? The government are giving them away like they are going out of fashion. If you have one, use the hell out of it.

Literally hundreds of thousands of other people are.

The entire free travel scheme is a joke that isn't seen anywhere else in the civilized world. You have public transport companies who are cutting services, cutting wages, increasing fares and experiencing regular overcrowding on certain routes but you won't even consider placing any type of restriction on the free All-Ireland travel that nearly a quarter of the nation are availing of.

RFOLEY1990

AlekSmart wrote: »

Pass Holders of Pensionable age account for less than HALF of the total number of Free Travel Documents in circulation.

this is where the real problem with the pass is, imo

Bongalongherb

The older folk at retirement now are getting more sh!t than the government because of a bloody free travel pass. Some comment's I read here are just the same ole idiots complaining day in and day out about me me me and I have to pay for them old folk out of my wages as being taxed to do so. A bunch of fooking babies you are.

This country wouldn't be so nice for you and your kids today if they hadn't have put the effort into making it a better place for you so have some respect and go back to mammy and cry to her about your woes, I'm sure she will slap you on the face for being a complete ignorant disrespectful bastard.

Let the old timers have their free travel cards, because they fecking deserve it. Who are you going to pick on next ?

mickydoomsux

RFOLEY1990 wrote: »

this is where the real problem with the pass is, imo

Certain addresses in Irish cities seem to entitle you to a pass.

AlekSmart

Bongalongherb: The older folk at retirement now are getting more sh!t than the government because of a bloody free travel pass. Some comment's I read here are just the same ole idiots complaining day in and day out about me me me and I have to pay for them old folk out of my wages as being taxed to do so. A bunch of fooking babies you are.

I think perhaps you may re-read the thread,as the distinction is VERY clearly made about just how the Free Travel Scheme is most Definitely NOT the preserve of OAP's any longer.

Minister Varadakar in his wide ranging interview with RTE's Sean O Rourke went to great pains to (Correctly) reassure the OAP sector of the Free Travel Scheme's continuance.

Just to recap,and for further cinsideration,the issue is about how the currently MASSIVE Free Travel entitlement can be funded,bearing in mind the huge yearly increases in those availing of it,versus the freezing of funding since 2010.

One does'nt have to be an idiot,ole or otherwise,to recognize an impending collapse under the conditions now being experienced UNLESS some form of corrective action is taken...which is exactly what Mr Varadakar is most definitely suggesting.

AlekSmart wrote: »

.
With approximately 3,000,000 ADULT's in our Population and a Labour Force of 2,154,000 (http://www.indexmundi.com/ireland/labor_force.html) there is a definite Mathematical problem as to how a universal Free Travel entitlement can be funded for 1,110,000 persons .

Of the c.760,000 Free Travel passes in circulation the majority(>344,000) are now in the possession of NON OAP recipients.

Bongalongherb

AlekSmart wrote: »

I think perhaps you may re-read the thread,as the distinction is VERY clearly made about just how the Free Travel Scheme is most Definitely NOT the preserve of OAP's any longer.

Minister Varadakar in his wide ranging interview with RTE's Sean O Rourke went to great pains to (Correctly) reassure the OAP sector of the Free Travel Scheme's continuance.

Just to recap,and for further cinsideration,the issue is about how the currently MASSIVE Free Travel entitlement can be funded,bearing in mind the huge yearly increases in those availing of it,versus the freezing of funding since 2010.

One does'nt have to be an idiot,ole or otherwise,to recognize an impending collapse under the conditions now being experienced UNLESS some form of corrective action is taken...which is exactly what Mr Varadakar is most definitely suggesting.

Regarding your comment... It is complete and utter bullsh!t in the extreme.

May the Gods of text have mercy on your soul.


Ah sure the government will be sleeping with the dead soon. If they cut this (below) then what else will they cut for the older folk ? and the rest of us ? the bastards that they are.

The Government has defended its decision to cut grants to the families of the deceased.

Brendan Howlin said the scrapping of the Bereavement Grant was the fairest way of taking money from older generations.

The €850 grant to cover the costs of a funeral was scrapped in today's Budget, 15/10/2013

But Minister Howlin says the other options would have been much more difficult

.

"We've done our level best, as with all social welfare payments, to maintain what we call a threshold of decency," he said.

He said none of the other available options "recommend themselves as easy."

From a waster politician.

No Pants

What has a Bereavement Grant got to do with a Free Travel Pass scheme?

Besides, the government shouldn't have to be paying out for an event that is foreseeable and inevitable.

Sam Russell

The bereavement grant was introduced as an incentive to make sure dead people were taken off benefits. It is not necessary now as we have other ways of taxing the dead.

The simplest way of bringing the FTP under control is to restrict its use to after 9 am, Mon - Fri.

When I was a kid in London, I had free travel to school (as did most kids if you lived beyond a certain distance) and I had a bus pass that detailed my route to school. I had two alternative routes but had to choose which one went on the pass. The pass was valid from the first day of school to the last day and was only valid at school times. This could apply to school kids that have a FTP to get to school today.

Visits to hospitals could be handled by passes issued by the HSE, dated and routed. It might cut down on the missed appointments as a by-product.

Remember, when people get to 70, the driving licence is restricted, and at 80, it is further restricted, so travel options are curtailed as you get older - never mind the health condition of the OAP.

mickydoomsux

Sam Russell wrote: »

This could apply to school kids that have a FTP to get to school today.

Kids that have those bus/train passes are already limited to school days during term time. Also, they aren't free. They cost a few hundred a year.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Visits to hospitals could be handled by passes issued by the HSE, dated and routed. It might cut down on the missed appointments as a by-product.

The HSE do occasionally issue people will travel warrants for appointments etc. but it seems to be far more popular to just give the person a FTP instead for some reason.

Sam Russell

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The HSE do occasionally issue people will travel warrants for appointments etc. but it seems to be far more popular to just give the person a FTP instead for some reason.

I presume because the HSE do not pay for the FTP and it is less bother to them to get the social welfare (or more accurately - CIE) to foot the bill.

schemingbohemia

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Regarding your comment... It is complete and utter bullsh!t in the extreme.

May the Gods of text have mercy on your soul.


Ah sure the government will be sleeping with the dead soon. If they cut this (below) then what else will they cut for the older folk ? and the rest of us ? the bastards that they are.

.

"We've done our level best, as with all social welfare payments, to maintain what we call a threshold of decency," he said.

He said none of the other available options "recommend themselves as easy."

From a waster politician.

Do you have some difficulty in understanding english?

People are generally in favour of retaining the Free Travel Pass for OAPs, the problem is that these make up only half of those who have a Free Travel Pass.

Read, read again, try to understand and then post.

OldNotWIse

No Pants wrote: »

What has a Bereavement Grant got to do with a Free Travel Pass scheme?

Besides, the government shouldn't have to be paying out for an event that is foreseeable and inevitable.

Quite. Now, let's apply that to child benefit

Demonique

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Means testing I could probably agree with but dictating when the pass can be used? Talk about treating them like second class citizens. I travel to work by bus and there are far more able bodied men flashing passes at the driver than there are pensioners. I see men in their thirties getting on and waving passes. Of course, you cant say anything - they might have a "hidden disability" but its ok to have a go at pensioners. My father worked for fifty years carrying lead and slates up ladders, to support and educate his family and pay his mortgage. He is entitled to his travel pass, and shouldnt need a doctors note to allow him to travel on the bus in the morning ffs

And by the way, many of the protesting pensioners did hold down mortgages and raise large families (and had it a damn sight harder than us poor put upon celtic tiger cubs ever had it).

Being able to walk doesn't mean someone is able-bodied FFS, you complain about people having a go at pensioners but you in turn take a pop at disabled people and put hidden disability in quotation marks

AlekSmart

Demonique wrote: »

Being able to walk doesn't mean someone is able-bodied FFS, you complain about people having a go at pensioners but you in turn take a pop at disabled people and put hidden disability in quotation marks

The issue,FFS or otherwise,is not whether anybody can walk ...It is about HOW to fund whatever level of benefit is granted by the State.

The origin of the FTS was very clearly to benefit the Elderly,particularly those living in isolated parts of the country following the Social Changes which were taking place from the mid 1960's onwards.

The inclusion of those on Disability Benefits came about somewhat later,and without any commensurate calculated increase in funding.

What nobody forsaw was the explosion in numbers of FTS recipients who were NOT of Pensionable Age and deemed to be Disabled.....

The funding crisis remains unaddressed thus far,as the 2013 statistics reveal a continuing increase in FTS recipients with funding remaining capped since 2010.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Social-Stats-AR-2013-SectionG.pdf

Total FTS Allocation €75,477,000

Total FTS Numbers for 2013. 782,529
Total FTS Pensioners 379,206
Total FTS Disability Benefit 106,264
Total FTS Category "Others" 102,062

For comparison to the 2010 Funding vs Entitled numbers.....

FTS Allocation €75,597,000

Total FTS Number for 2010. 726,412
Total FTS Pensioners 2010 346,769
Total FTS Disability Benefit 99,506
Total FTS Category "Others" 99,702

So....how is the additional 56,000+ entitled persons entitlement to Free Public Transport access being funded.....?

loyatemu

Do you automatically get a pass if you're on Disability Benefit? - as various commentators have pointed out the numbers on DB have (for reasons largely unknown) increased dramatically in the last 10 years.

Fred Swanson

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