What was Bertie's biggest mistake(s)?

Slideshowbob

Micheal Martin thinks it was social partnership!!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/berties-biggest-mistake-was-social-partnership-martin-29617082.html

I'd disagree! I'd say it was his inability to heed warning signs such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM

Am I wrong on this one? Or anyone got a bigger Bertie mistake I am missing?

Or ..... is Martin really out of touch?

MouseTail

Rolling back on the Bacon report was pretty big, that could have taken the heat out of the property Market.

rumour

Bertie's mistake, he didn't make any.

His parents brought him up with a sense of morality and integrity, once that is established that is how what is wrong and right is forevermore judged. He did what he thought was right and managed the C&*p going on all around him that of course he thought was normal, I mean he was trained in the Charlie Haughey school of thought.

I thought the News of the World 'sitting in the cupboard' was the most demeaning thing I have ever seen or heard of by a national leader but it is related directly to his sense of morality and integrity.

It speaks volumes of the Irish people that they re-elected this stalwart individual time and time again.

golfwallah

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Micheal Martin thinks it was social partnership!!

Of course he thinks it was social partnership - rather than the mistakes made in implementing it, mainly on the government side. In Germany, they didn't implement such a roll-over and "give away" approach to the social partnership idea. The Germans have demonstrated that it works pretty well when used in a mature fashion.

No, as I see it, there's nothing wrong with social partnership as long as it's worked in an adult, grown up fashion by both sides. This produces "win win" results in Germany, where the agreed objective is to find solutions that are fair to all the social partners (labour, capital, society, etc.) - not just government / management capitulating to reckless union negotiating tactics.

As they say, a bad workman always blames his tools (well, certainly not himself - and Micheal Martin is unlikely to blame himself and his colleagues for their own bad leadership / management, now, is he?).

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Or ..... is Martin really out of touch?

Politicians seem to spend a lot of time looking for scapegoats - rather than looking in the mirror to see their own mistakes - and then having the courage to admit them!

Gloomtastic!

I believe it was the biggest mistake.

This country is truly stymied by the spending demands of the social partners, who make up the majority of the voting population. Any attempt to seriously address their demands is political suicide for any government. So they refuse to do anything about it.

So Martin has finally found the problem, now all we need is the solution.

My solution would be an interim government, democratically elected (still working on that one!), that would for five years, cut back on all of Bertie's little favours to the partners - the pensions, the allowances, the inflated salaries, and return spending back to income levels as opposed to upping tax to spending levels.

The government would comprise of competent, focused individuals who would not have to curry favour with the electorate, have no political baggage and it would be mandatory for them to 'retire' at the term of their first term.

Anyone else got a better idea?

Sand

Bertie didn't make any mistakes.

He comfortably retired whilst relatively young (57), gets a nice pension of 153K Euro per year, managed to get himself appointed to a few cozy numbers on boards, and makes a tidy little packet with public speaking.

How can anyone say this man made any mistakes? He's done extremely well for himself. For himself.

Gloomtastic!

Sand wrote: »

Bertie didn't make any mistakes.

He comfortably retired whilst relatively young (57), gets a nice pension of 153K Euro per year, managed to get himself appointed to a few cozy numbers on boards, and makes a tidy little packet with public speaking.

How can anyone say this man made any mistakes? He's done extremely well for himself. For himself.

€153k that we were told he was constitutionally entitled to - no, can't cut them, sorry. Suddenly five years in, they suddenly discover they can cut them, so knock 20% off. Begs the question, why not cut them them by 50%? It would then bring them into line with another minor European nation - like the German Chancellor!!!!

Sheldons Brain

Social partnership was not the problem, many of the spending decisions were reasonable enough and much of the sloppiness was caused by the perception of having plenty to go around.

Bertie's mistake, one also made by many who voted for him, was a complete failure to assess the long term resources available and to adjust spending with some sort of long term perspective, rather than a transient boom.

Martin is pandering to the Indo and again failing to analyse the real issue.
Unless there is some analysis of the mistakes made then the same mistakes will be made again.

snubbleste

We voted for him over and over knowing full well he was a cute hoor
remember he had no bank account as minister for finance, he went up every tree in N Dublin, embellishments on his CV...

Bertie made no mistakes, in fact he was rather clever handing over the reins to Cowen at an opportune moment

Good loser

Bertie was astonishingly lucky - again and again. Fortunate for him and unfortunate for us over and over. Intellectually limited his cabinets too were hopelessly inept. A really competent opposition would have helped.

He existed in a kind of fool's paradise.

His biggest mistake was thinking he could please all the people all the time.
He knew that giving people money was what pleased them most so he splayed it around.

Remember the Redress Board, Army deafness, Hepatitis C, SSIAs, Tribunals and the biggies Social Welfare and Public Sector payouts. Probably Social Welfare increases were the biggest single.

Sheldons Brain

SSIAs were actually a good idea, one example of encouraging saving rather than borrowing. The only problem was that they were ended at election time. If they had been kept going to 2008 or so then the government contribution would be one element of public spending easily ended and people would have some savings.

Gumbo

Sand wrote: »

Bertie didn't make any mistakes.

He comfortably retired whilst relatively young (57), gets a nice pension of 153K Euro per year, managed to get himself appointed to a few cozy numbers on boards, and makes a tidy little packet with public speaking.

How can anyone say this man made any mistakes? He's done extremely well for himself. For himself.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

€153k that we were told he was constitutionally entitled to - no, can't cut them, sorry. Suddenly five years in, they suddenly discover they can cut them, so knock 20% off. Begs the question, why not cut them them by 50%? It would then bring them into line with another minor European nation - like the German Chancellor!!!!

He received a pension of 99k last year according to recently published reports.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/mcaleese-kept-all-of-her-141k-pension-29617049.html

jimmycrackcorm

I think the thread should really be about the mistakes we made in voting him in.

When he made the comment about people sound commit suicide it's obvious he was shepherding the sheep.

COYW

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

SSIAs were actually a good idea, one example of encouraging saving rather than borrowing. The only problem was that they were ended at election time. If they had been kept going to 2008 or so then the government contribution would be one element of public spending easily ended and people would have some savings.

How would that have worked? SSIAs were spent on luxuries and were always going to be. They were an extremely poor reflection on this country. Such was the level of excess in Irish society at the time, that the government had to entice people to save money for the future. Is it any wonder that the country is in the state it is in, regarding personal debt?

Bertie's biggest mistake was being a socialist. I often laugh at people when they go on about FF being right wing. If only, I respond. We wouldn't be in the mess that we are in today, if he genuinely was right wing.

crazygeryy

Being a big smug cnut.

hfallada

His biggest mistake was not reforming the welfare system and actually making it a bigger burden on the tax payer. Even Ireland could give a job to everyone, there was tens of thousands choosing not to work but stay on welfare. Welfare should have been cut until they had no choice to work like in Germany.

However every budget welfare went up, while the same time people in council housing got new apartments and housing. Why should a tax payer pay for your choice of not working?

COYW

hfallada wrote: »

His biggest mistake was no reforming the welfare system and actually making it a bigger burden on the tax payer. Even Ireland could give a job to everyone, there was tens of thousands choosing not to work but stay on welfare. Welfare should have been cut until they had no choice to work like in Germany.

However every budget welfare went up, while the same time people in council housing got new apartments and housing. Why should a tax payer pay for your choice of not working?

Yep, they increased social welfare at three times the rate of inflation in the boom years and gave a Christmas bonus to those who refused to work, while we as a country had to take in hundreds of thousands of people from abroad to fill vacant positions.

Let's not forget that their buddies to be, SF, were campaigning for the re-introduction of that bonus before the last election. The country was broke and living off borrowed money and they wanted to bring it back! Granted common sense and SF policy tend not to go together.

Muahahaha

snubbleste wrote: »

We voted for him over and over knowing full well he was a cute hoor
remember he had no bank account as minister for finance, he went up every tree in N Dublin, embellishments on his CV...

Bertie made no mistakes, in fact he was rather clever handing over the reins to Cowen at an opportune moment

I hate this 'we' stuff, it's like Enda Kenny's "we all partied". In 2007 FF got 41% of the vote. That means 59% of Irish people recognised FF for the corrupt entity that they are and didn't vote for them. So a majority of Irish voters did not vote for them, yet it is always said that 'we' voted Bertie into power. I digress. 'They' voted Bertie into power and 'they' partied.

Mr.Micro

Who cares about the little man. In the end he showed how small minded he was/is. His mistake was not being able to see the big picture. Parish pump Dublin style.

guillespe

It speaks volumes of the Irish people that they re-elected this stalwart individual time and time again.

I have to agree here,i believe it was the fault of the irish people here,most of us kept re-electing this bollox..

Oh who will aye vote fur - ah letme me see wait a minute,ohhh fianna fail,fine gael or laaaaabour oooooooooh...

Thats whats wrong with irish people in general,if you look at the uk there are more and more people voting for alternative parties like UKIP and Liberty GB.


We should do the same here - we should start voting direct democracy or someother new party that is interested in real democracy not kleptocracy with the usual self serving muppets in fianna fail , fine gael or labour.


We will only get more of the same if we keep voting in the same FF,FG,LAB muppets..

It needs to stop somewhere otherwise we are well and truly ****ed..

Mr.Micro

hfallada wrote: »

His biggest mistake was not reforming the welfare system and actually making it a bigger burden on the tax payer. Even Ireland could give a job to everyone, there was tens of thousands choosing not to work but stay on welfare. Welfare should have been cut until they had no choice to work like in Germany.

However every budget welfare went up, while the same time people in council housing got new apartments and housing. Why should a tax payer pay for your choice of not working?

You are asking a logical question, but the answer was to buy votes. It was all for FF. The state of the country was not a concern, merely a commodity, to be used by Ahern and his mob.

murphaph

That yellow suit.

Mr.Micro

murphaph wrote: »

That yellow suit.

Yes indeed, like a clown suit

Villain

I'd be more interested in looking at what mistakes led to Bertie being elected for the third time when it was very clear he had serious issues to deal with including the statements he made to the Tribunal which couldn't have been true.

Yet McDowell and the PD's let him remain in place, however the media in general was slow to force him out, hell even boards.ie protected him and blocked discussions here!

Dampintheattic

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Micheal Martin thinks it was social partnership!!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/berties-biggest-mistake-was-social-partnership-martin-29617082.html

I'd disagree! I'd say it was his inability to heed warning signs such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM

Am I wrong on this one? Or anyone got a bigger Bertie mistake I am missing?

Or ..... is Martin really out of touch?

Being born:cool:

eigrod

golfwallah wrote: »

Of course he thinks it was social partnership - rather than the mistakes made in implementing it, mainly on the government side. In Germany, they didn't implement such a roll-over and "give away" approach to the social partnership idea. The Germans have demonstrated that it works pretty well when used in a mature fashion.

No, as I see it, there's nothing wrong with social partnership as long as it's worked in an adult, grown up fashion by both sides. This produces "win win" results in Germany, where the agreed objective is to find solutions that are fair to all the social partners (labour, capital, society, etc.) - not just government / management capitulating to reckless union negotiating tactics.

True.

The real Social Partnership under FF was the Galway tent. In there, the partners were of their choosing. That's where, over a number of years, plans were hatched, deals were done, nods were given, winks were given that ultimately lead to the collapse that happened. One grand pyramid scheme that nobody within was willing to call a halt to. Look no further.

creedp

eigrod wrote: »

True.

The real Social Partnership under FF was the Galway tent. In there, the partners were of their choosing. That's where, over a number of years, plans were hatched, deals were done, nods were given, winks were given that ultimately lead to the collapse that happened. One grand pyramid scheme that nobody within was willing to call a halt to. Look no further.

That statement won't win you too many votes!! Don't you know that Partnership was solely with the PS Unions.

Idbatterim

Yep, they increased social welfare at three times the rate of inflation in the boom years and gave a Christmas bonus to those who refused to work, while we as a country had to take in hundreds of thousands of people from abroad to fill vacant positions.

yeah and this was going on while we had and still have kids being educated in PREFABS for starters, its a disgrace! Dublin still doesnt have a proper rail network, there are so many things that could have been done with this money, but buying elections was the most important thing...

golfwallah

Muahahaha wrote: »

I hate this 'we' stuff, it's like Enda Kenny's "we all partied". In 2007 FF got 41% of the vote. That means 59% of Irish people recognised FF for the corrupt entity that they are and didn't vote for them. So a majority of Irish voters did not vote for them, yet it is always said that 'we' voted Bertie into power. I digress. 'They' voted Bertie into power and 'they' partied.

Maybe ..... but I think you're forgetting that "we the peeple" also voted to retain PR, in the last referendum on that subject, which is what allows FF or any other party to form a government, even though they don't have a clear majority.

That's democracy!

Rightwing

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Micheal Martin thinks it was social partnership!!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/berties-biggest-mistake-was-social-partnership-martin-29617082.html

I'd disagree! I'd say it was his inability to heed warning signs such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM

Am I wrong on this one? Or anyone got a bigger Bertie mistake I am missing?

Or ..... is Martin really out of touch?

Biggest mistake,,,that he didn't emigrate when he was 5 and never came back.