Obamacare & Government Shutdowns

Paleface

We are yet again at a point where the GOP are using the threat of government shutdown to prevent Obamacare from becoming law.

In my mind this has got to be the most idiotic political posturing to come out of US politics in recent years. The GOP cannot come out of this looking good and stand to lose no matter what happens.

If Obamacare is so bad and destined to fail, why don't they just let it happen and pick up the pieces afterwards? Makes much more sense strategically to me.

Overheal

During the next election cycle the GOP has little to show for itself except "yeah the last 7 years, we stopped the lefties from getting anything done, opposed them every step of the way, oh and our party split in half people were that unhappy with us and when that didn't work we just kept doing the same old ****, you know, insanity and all that"

Black Swan

Although Obamacare may be unpopular with many of the voters, tying it to government shutdowns, and the potential for a financial downturn with job losses, even if somewhat mild to moderate, may not be a wise move.

There is also the perceived threat of a disruption of Social Security payments for retirees, which are growing in numbers as the demographically huge Baby Boom retires (those born between 1946 and 1964; i.e., approximately 70 million voters). Even if such payments are not delayed later this year, or the next, the troublesome threat to the security of these voters may scare many of them to cross party lines and vote Democrat in next year's mid-terms.

This may lead to further GOP political platform position fragmentation and seat losses in the US House of Representatives during the mid-term November 2014 elections. They have already experienced the fragmentation occurring between the GOP and the Republican Tea Party wing, and threats to holding office in the mid-terms may split them further. It should be remembered that, although the GOP still controls the House and the important Speaker position, they suffered a small net loss of seats in the 2012 general elections.

The Republicans and its Tea Party faction has an image problem. For example, the leader of the Democrats is clearly Obama. Who is the leader of the Republicans today?

Paleface

If Obamacare is so unpopular to the majority of Americans then why did they re-elect Obama?

Romney ran on the premise that he would repeal it on his first day. But still he lost the election. Now I know there are plenty of other factors involved in a presidential race but I took it that the people sent a clear message when they re-elected Obama that they wanted Obamacare to happen.

I think that in fact its not unpopular but more confusing to the average voter. They are naturally afraid of the unknown.

The GOP just seem to be jumping on that fear rather than trying to offer a viable alternative.

Amerika

Help me out here.

Obama promised we would see a $2,500 reduction in annual insurance premiums if ObamaCare was passed. Since passing the law, the rates have gone up about $2,500. That’s a negative swing of $5,000. What’s the deal… too bad, so sad?

There are about 120 million people employed by businesses. Lets say 35 million are employed in firms with less then 50 employees. That’s about 30%. Almost all small business will get out of providing insurance and have employees go on the exchange. Lets say the average annual family income of 4 is $47,000 and we’ll pick NJ, with two adults age 40, and 2 kids. The cost for insurance will be $9,700 (Silver plan which pays around 70%) with the price paid by the individual being $3,000 and the government paying $6,700. Multiple that $6,700 by 35 million and your looking at an annual government cost of $235 billion annually. Where does that money come from? Didn’t Obama promise that ObamaCare wouldn’t cost the government anything if it were passed?
　
This year, the president is already requesting 107% more than three years ago to pay for subsidies. Now, if you have better numbers as to the cost to the government regarding their portion of the subsidies, I’m all ears… but the question remains… where is the money coming from? China?

Paleface

Those figures really do paint a morbid picture of the future if thats exactly how its going to pan out.

But your not answering my question.

So I say again, why not just let it fail? Let the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot!

Amerika

Paleface wrote: »

Those figures really do paint a morbid picture of the future if thats exactly how its going to pan out.

But your not answering my question.

So I say again, why not just let it fail? Let the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot!

I agree let it fail! No extensions, no exemptions - for anyone! No politician running for reelection in 2014 wants to deal with ObamaCare in place. When people finally realize the cost of this thing they will take their frustrations on the incumbents, be it democrat or republican. But the problem remains if we let it fail it will cost the American citizens billions annually to just let it fail. And the House of Representatives is acting in accordance with that constitutional responsibility… to control spending of the Federal Government. The Senate and the President do not have such a responsibility. To just give into an imperial presidency and allow continual and expanded deficit spending negates their fiduciary responsibility.

InTheTrees

Republicans have done nothing about Healthcare reform for decades except obstruct any attempts to change it.

This is just the latest attempt, led by the incompetents of the "tea party" who dont seem to understand the law is in the books and set to begin tomorrow.

They've had years to get this law thrown out in a legitimate way but the american people didnt want them to.

SO they resort to this.

InTheTrees

Paleface wrote: »

Those figures really do paint a morbid picture of the future if thats exactly how its going to pan out.

But your not answering my question.

So I say again, why not just let it fail? Let the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot!

Dont believe the republican spin.

Representatives in the House are elected every two years, the election is in November 2014.

The republicans know if Healthcare reform is implemented, its never going to be repealed (as ted cruz said americans will become "addicted" to it), and that they'll have to face their constituents next year after having opposed it.

SO they try and delay it a year.

Its pretty transparent really.

Paleface

InTheTrees wrote: »

Dont believe the republican spin.

Representatives in the House are elected every two years, the election is in November 2014.

The republicans know if Healthcare reform is implemented, its never going to be repealed (as ted cruz said americans will become "addicted" to it), and that they'll have to face their constituents next year after having opposed it.

SO they try and delay it a year.

Its pretty transparent really.

But whats to stop them delaying it for another year and so on if the threat is a shutdown or a failure to raise the debt ceiling?

Its the use of these two mechanisms that I can't understand. If they go over the cliff on either they will be hung out to dry by the Democrats but yet they persist in threatening it only to pull back at the last moment.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Since passing the law, the rates have gone up about $2,500.

Given the law doesnt start until tomorrow, and that the insurance rates are only just being published and wont take effect until Jan1st, where does this "about $2500" number come from?

InTheTrees

Paleface wrote: »

But whats to stop them delaying it for another year and so on if the threat is a shutdown or a failure to raise the debt ceiling?

Its the use of these two mechanisms that I can't understand. If they go over the cliff on either they will be hung out to dry by the Democrats but yet they persist in threatening it only to pull back at the last moment.

Obama was elected on this legislation. Americans have wanted it for many many years. Healthcare in the USA is a complete mess.

SO Obama was elected to get his done. And he did. The law was passed against republican opposition and misinformation. The law was challenged by the republicans and it went to the Supreme Court to be decided.

And the (right wing majority) Supreme Court affirmed it.

SO now its due to take effect. But the republicans who have failed and lost every attempt to stop it are now trying to block the new budget from taking effect which is a roundabout way of stopping the new law.

They cant even wait for the law to start and then make changes to it to alter it into a form that is acceptable to them because they know how popular it will be and that it will be impossible to close the pandoras box once it is opened. SO they want it delayed until after they get re-elected in next Novembers elections, no doubt so they can strut in front of their tea party constituents and brag about how powerful they are.

SO they're stopping the entire federal budget from being implemented. SO everyone has to go without Healthcare reform that we voted for because some nutjobs want to spin their political record for reelection.

Apparently the "tea party" representatives responsible for obstructing the entre national budget represent abut 10% of the country too.

Absolutely disgusting. But it'll come back to haunt them.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

I agree let it fail! No extensions, no exemptions - for anyone! No politician running for reelection in 2014 wants to deal with ObamaCare in place.

This is the current republican attitude. No thoughts about fixing the reforms or making them better or coming up with any other kind of healthcare plan.

Just destroy the Democrat plan and make Obama look bad whatever it takes and screw the american people.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Given the law doesnt start until tomorrow, and that the insurance rates are only just being published and wont take effect until Jan1st, where does this "about $2500" number come from?

My error. Rates have increased $2,976, not $2,500, since 2009 according to an annual Kaiser Family Foundation report.
http://news.investors.com/082313-668492-health-premiums-climbed-obama-promised-cut.htm

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

This is just the latest attempt, led by the incompetents of the "tea party" who dont seem to understand the law is in the books and set to begin tomorrow.

They've had years to get this law thrown out in a legitimate way but the american people didnt want them to.

SO they resort to this.

The Tea Party is concerned with the cost to the taxpayers for ObamaCare. The subsidies will cost the federal government billions, if not trillions. Since spending reductions dosen’t seem to be in this administrations vocabulary, wouldn’t you have agree that it will entail massive tax increases in order to pay for it?

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

My error. Rates have increased $2,976, not $2,500, since 2009 according to an annual Kaiser Family Foundation report.
http://news.investors.com/082313-668492-health-premiums-climbed-obama-promised-cut.htm

Seriously? You're talking about private insurance companies not obamacare. They are the reason we need healthcare reform.

You understand Obamacare hasnt started yet right? The Insurance exchanges open tomorrow and the plans start on January 1st 2014.

SO this nonsense about premiums increasing(??) is just incorrect.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

This is the current republican attitude. No thoughts about fixing the reforms or making them better or coming up with any other kind of healthcare plan.

Just destroy the Democrat plan and make Obama look bad whatever it takes and screw the american people.

Bullsh!t. The republicans have offered several plans. Some parts are good in ObamaCare, but most aren't. Scrap it and get something workable with bi-partisan support. That's all the republicans have asked for.

InTheTrees

Here's a link to the Washington State Insurance exchange.

After tomorrow you will be able to pick a plan and it will take effect on January 1st.

http://www.wahbexchange.org/news-resources/calculate-your-costs/individuals-families-cost-estimate-calculator

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Seriously? You're talking about private insurance companies not obamacare. They are the reason we need healthcare reform.

You understand Obamacare hasnt started yet right? The Insurance exchanges open tomorrow and the plans start on January 1st 2014.

SO this nonsense about premiums increasing(??) is just incorrect.

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius has admitted that ObamaCare is raising insurance costs.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Here's a link to the Washington State Insurance exchange.

After tomorrow you will be able to pick a plan and it will take effect on January 1st.

http://www.wahbexchange.org/news-resources/calculate-your-costs/individuals-families-cost-estimate-calculator

Yes, and how is that "Estimated tax credit from the government" going to be paid for?

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Bullsh!t. The republicans have offered several plans.

ha ha ha ha!

Yup. Lets make an "affordable" healthcare plan by making a deductible of $50000 so it'll only be useful in an emergency but wont cost much. (And handily fulfills the political needs of republicans to be able to say they've tried reforming the system.)

No help if you're diabetic or have heart disease or any long term condition though.

Did they get rid of the lifetime cap on benefits? No. People in ireland probably dont know that americans face a lifetime cap on health benefits from their insurance companies so even if you have insurance and a long term condition you can each the end of your benefits, then you're basically sh*t out of luck. Imagine how that affects children with long term needs?

And did any of the republican plans tackle "pre-existing" conditions? No. People may not realize that in america if you try and buy health insurance and you have some long term problem you wont be able to get that condition covered. It will be denied. SO if you have insurance and heart problems you can never change your policy and you'll be at the mercy of whatever insurance company you had when you got sick. And they WILL raise the premiums on you, nothing to stop them.

Just a few elements of the healthcare debacle in the USA that ObamaCare will fix and that republicans have ignored for years.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Yes, and how is that "Estimated tax credit from the government" going to be paid for?

By you and me.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

By you and me.

Finally something we agree on!

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius has admitted that ObamaCare is raising insurance costs.

But not premiums. If sixty million more people have heath insurance that previously did not then it can be safely assumed that insurance costs will rise right?

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Finally something we agree on!

Except that I'm happy to pay extra tax so that my neighbours can benefit from affordable healthcare.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

If sixty million more people have heath insurance that previously did not then it can be safely assumed that insurance costs will rise right?

Gee, according to the Obama administration, that sixty million or so more people buying insurance would decrease insurance costs. Or does history start today?

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Gee, according to the Obama administration, that sixty million or so more people buying insurance would decrease insurance costs. Or does history start today?

Because you're intentionally confusing the words "premium" and "costs".

Like we dont understand the differences?

This is like the congressional republicans tactic thats failing so badly for them.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Except that I'm happy to pay extra tax so that my neighbours can benefit from affordable healthcare.

Do you really think the net effect will be so many more people will now have insurance? And what if it doesn’t, do you agree we should we scrap it?

And since you in such a generous mood, how about paying my portion of tax increases also, since the net effect will be little more than developing more low-information voters into claiming YEAH DEMOCRATS - TAX THE RICH.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Because you're intentionally confusing the words "premium" and "costs".

Like we dont understand the differences?

Please explain. Aren't premiums meant to cover costs? Please check out what Sebelius meant.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius has admitted that ObamaCare is raising insurance costs.

Amerika wrote: »

Please explain. Aren't premiums meant to cover costs?

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Oh bother... Enough of the pedantic nonsense. Sebilius was referring to increases in insurance premiums caused by ObamaCare.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Oh bother... Enough of the pedantic nonsense. Sebilius was referring to increases in insurance premiums caused by ObamaCare.

How could she possibly know such a thing? There's fifty states all with their own insurance exchanges which have multiple plans at different prices and they arent even open until tomorrow.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

How could she possibly know such a thing? There's fifty states all with their own insurance exchanges which have multiple plans at different prices and they arent even open until tomorrow.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/54127

Do you really think she doesn’t know what the rates will be before tomorrow?

I already know many of the rates.

And perhaps the findings from the Society of Actuaries might interest you. And to help you out, I’ll give you the bottom line… Under the Affordable Care Act, health insurance premiums are expected to increase by 32 percent for individuals

http://cdn-files.soa.org/web/research-cost-aca-report.pdf

clairefontaine

It's essentially a legally enforceable subsidy. Of course costs are going to inflate significantly.

InTheTrees

BS

You can go online right now and find out the new premiums.

If you're so convinced they're going up then give us some examples.

This nonsense tactic of waiting until the day before the budget is implemented to force a change in a law thats already been voted on is really a stupid move by the republicans.

But its their last chance and they wont win. Or rather, they've already lost because The Law that they're so angry about has already taken effect, so anything that is agreed to will be meaningless. But they've dug themselves in so deep and are so far behind there's not much else to do.

We'll just wait and see what happens.

Amerika

When ObamaCare was passed purely on democrat votes, 85% of Americans had existing health care coverage, and 87% of them were happy with it, with the remainder satisfied unless they would receive something better (and ObamaCare is expected to increase premiums about 32% on average, so that blows their expectations out of the water). Of the 15% uninsured, only half were unhappy with their health care situation. So this ObamaCare abomination, which is now expected to add $6.2 trillion to the deficit and inflict severe cuts to Medicare and Medicaid payments to hospitals and physicians, was done in order to do something for half of the 15% unhappy with their situation. Only someone without a clue would not realize the bill for this monstrosity will come due in the form of massive tax increases across the board.

The House GOP had a fiduciary responsibility to try one final time to stop this monstrosity, before the "give me" uninformed US population gets hooked on the subsidy drug, thinking there are no financial consequences... EVER!

And they call the republicans crazy?

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

BS

If you're so convinced they're going up then give us some examples.

You didn’t bother to even read the findings from the Society of Actuaries that I already provided, which is the major factor in how insurance companies determine premiums, did you?

joseph brand

InTheTrees wrote: »

Except that I'm happy to pay extra tax so that my neighbours can benefit from affordable healthcare.

Commie!


:pac:

Amerika

joseph brand wrote: »

Commie!


:pac:

LOL… And that’s quite alright. But I’m pretty confident he prefers to pay the least amount of taxes possible… just like the rest of us castigated capitalists. But if I’m wrong and he doesn’t just talk the talk, here is a site for him walk the walk and help pay down the debt for all these lovely social programs.
https://www.pay.gov/paygov/forms/formInstance.html?agencyFormId=23779454

clairefontaine

Amerika wrote: »

LOL… And that’s quite alright. But I’m pretty confident he prefers to pay the least amount of taxes possible… just like the rest of us castigated capitalists. But if I’m wrong and he doesn’t just talk the talk, here is a site for him walk the walk and help pay down the debt for all these lovely social programs.
https://www.pay.gov/paygov/forms/formInstance.html?agencyFormId=23779454

Is that tax deductible?:o

Amerika

clairefontaine wrote: »

Is that tax deductible?:o

Certifiable – yes, Tax Deductible – I don’t rightly know.

And don’t you find it ironic that with all these liberals and progressives publicly pronouncing they want to be taxed more, the Treasury has only received about $4 million on average from this program for the years Obama has been in office, with this year only amounting to $1.5 million to date.

clairefontaine

Amerika wrote: »

Certifiable – yes, Tax Deductible – I don’t rightly know.

And don’t you find it ironic that with all these liberals and progressives publicly pronouncing they want to be taxed more, the Treasury has only received about $4 million on average from this program for the years Obama has been in office, with this year only amounting to $1.5 million to date.

It's essentially a program to get the young to pay for the old. Young will resent the old.

Has to be the most divisive president in history. IRS gets even more data. Supreme Court seriously ****ed this one up. The nation is a train wreck.

Amerika

clairefontaine wrote: »

It's essentially a program to get the young to pay for the old. Young will resent the old.

The young have yet to figure out how badly they've been screwed.

Has to be the most divisive president in history. IRS gets even more data.

No No No! We should ignore all of that and be bowing at the feet of Obama for graciously allowing himself to be our president.

Supreme Court seriously ****ed this one up. The nation is a train wreck.

Yeah they screwed the pooch on that one, and Chief Justice Roberts even pulled a backhanded Pontius Pilate... "It Is Not Our Job to Protect the People From the Consequences of Their Political Choices"

InTheTrees

SO to review..

Republicans have had THREE YEARS to challenge the Healthcare law.

It passed both houses of congress, it was approved by the supreme court. Its been in the books and due to begin today for well over two years.

And in all that time republicans have been unable to squash it because a majority of Americans want it.

Last year Obama won a second term on his pledge to see this legislation up and running. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan presented a few alternative plans and also pledged to repeal the Affordable Care Act as a central core of their election campaign.

Needless to say they lost in a landslide.

SO now, they're trying to blackmail Obama to repeal the "affordable healthcare act" by sabotaging the budget.

Its completely insane and its making them look like idiot and morons because the healthcare law has already started and is already funded.

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

It's essentially a program to get the young to pay for the old. Young will resent the old.

And what about Social Security?

Or any pension plan.

And whats your alternative anyway? High deductibles and lower premiums like before? Seriously?

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

Has to be the most divisive president in history.

ha ha ha ha

Uh huh.

If you're on the losing side I can see how you'd feel that. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan lost in a landslide general election less than a year ago.

The affordable Care Act is one of the biggest threats to the right wing agenda in decades.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

When ObamaCare was passed purely on democrat votes, 85% of Americans had existing health care coverage, and 87% of them were happy with it, with the remainder satisfied unless they would receive something better (and ObamaCare is expected to increase premiums about 32% on average, so that blows their expectations out of the water). Of the 15% uninsured, only half were unhappy with their health care situation. So this ObamaCare abomination, which is now expected to add $6.2 trillion to the deficit and inflict severe cuts to Medicare and Medicaid payments to hospitals and physicians, was done in order to do something for half of the 15% unhappy with their situation. Only someone without a clue would not realize the bill for this monstrosity will come due in the form of massive tax increases across the board.

The House GOP had a fiduciary responsibility to try one final time to stop this monstrosity, before the "give me" uninformed US population gets hooked on the subsidy drug, thinking there are no financial consequences... EVER!

And they call the republicans crazy?

Yup. Pretty much.

Less than a year ago Obama won a landslide presidential election based on his stance on Healthcare reform.

His opponents presented an alternative that the voters soundly rejected.

So these nonsense percentages are really just that. Breathless frothy outrage from the right wingers outraged by the largest social welfare program in US History after SOcial Security.

Priceless.

:pac: :pac: :pac:

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

Young will resent the old.

Oh the horror.

:eek:

clairefontaine

InTheTrees wrote: »

Oh the horror.

:eek:

It will be when they start demanding treatment be refused for the over 70.

clairefontaine

InTheTrees wrote: »

Yup. Pretty much.

Less than a year ago Obama won a landslide presidential election based on his stance on Healthcare reform.

His opponents presented an alternative that the voters soundly rejected.

So these nonsense percentages are really just that. Breathless frothy outrage from the right wingers outraged by the largest social welfare program in US History after SOcial Security.

Priceless.

:pac: :pac: :pac:

I wouldn't call it a landslide in fairness.

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

I wouldn't call it a landslide in fairness.

Of course you wouldnt. But its hardly fair though. :eek:

332 to 206 is a landslide.

In addition... a ringing endorsement by the voters for the the Republicans alternative healthcare proposals:

"Romney lost his home state of Massachusetts, becoming the first major party presidential candidate to lose his home state since Democrat Al Gore lost his home state of Tennessee to Republican George W. Bush in the 2000 election.[118] Romney lost his home state by more than 23%, the worst losing margin for a major party candidate since John Frémont in 1856.[119] Even worse than Frémont, Romney failed to win a single county in his home state.[120][121] In addition, since Obama carried Ryan's home state of Wisconsin, the Romney–Ryan ticket was the first major party ticket since the 1972 election to have both of its nominees lose their home states.[119]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012