Obamacare & Government Shutdowns

Filibuster

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its called compromise.

Because the debate over healthcare over the last eight years would never have got anywhere with the republicans if their beloved insurance companies hadnt got a break. Also the small business exemption.

Actually the insurance companies love Obamacare, it forces every citizen to sign up.

InTheTrees

Filibuster wrote: »

Actually the insurance companies love Obamacare, it forces every citizen to sign up.

Yes, thats what I meant. The reform wouldnt have stood a chance of passage unless the Insurance Companies were involved. It was the only way.

Now hopefully over time that can be changed. The main push is to get this thing up and running.

nagilum2

InTheTrees wrote: »

Yes, thats what I meant. The reform wouldnt have stood a chance of passage unless the Insurance Companies were involved. It was the only way.

Now hopefully over time that can be changed. The main push is to get this thing up and running.

ROFL. Yes, hopefully we'll have a change to change the government-industrial. The main thing is to get it up and running. Please tell me you are playing devil's advocate and aren't really that naive? Between military/security and health, in 10 years the US will be transferring 40% or more of it's GDP on the private corporations that provide the greatest political bribes.

InTheTrees

Its been like that forever.

Welcome to the USA. Where corporations are people too.

clairefontaine

InTheTrees wrote: »

Yes, thats what I meant. The reform wouldnt have stood a chance of passage unless the Insurance Companies were involved. It was the only way.

Now hopefully over time that can be changed. The main push is to get this thing up and running.

Oh dear god.

Why can't you see what is happening and what will happen?

It's because its health and you think it will help the poor people see the doctor. WRONG! It won't. You will see how wrong you are.

Would you support the government forcing people to buy personal liability too? How about travel?

Can't you see who benefits from this the most?

joseph brand

Obamacare Is Winning in Kentucky, Thanks to Steve Beshear

Kentucky’s perplexing and hypocritical aversion to big government has been exploited brilliantly by our senior senator Mitch McConnell, who’s capitalized on our cultural resentment of elite interference to transform the Bluegrass State into a deep-red citadel in federal elections.
But in a delicious irony, Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul’s home state may ultimately serve as the proving ground of Obamacare’s success. That’s due to the political chutzpah of one man: Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear.
And while the federal launch of the program has been plagued with technical difficulties, Kentucky’s experience has been exemplary: In its first day, 10,766 applications for health coverage were initiated, 6,909 completed and 2,989 families were enrolled. Obama himself bragged that Kentucky led the nation with its glitch-minimized performance.
But Steve Beshear’s healthy recipe might prove the elixir for the hype-fueled Tea Party brew that’s convinced many poor, rural Americans to vote against their own economic interests.

Taken from here:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/17/obamacare-is-winning-in-kentucky-thanks-to-steve-beshear.html

Jonny7

Filibuster wrote: »

Actually the insurance companies love Obamacare, it forces every citizen to sign up.

In the same way universities and textbook companies would love if the administration made third level education free

And if they did, I'm sure the opposition would find a way of demonising it -

I can see it now..

"Your tax dollars being used for something that might not directly benefit you! Communism!"

jman0war

Insurance companies are already a cartel, and price gouging, and have been that way forever.
Perhaps with the Affordable Healthcare Act, they'll double down now.

But now that the genie is out of the bottle (government mandated healthcare solutions) it won't be so easy to put back.
That's ok, because there are any number of legilsative solutions that we could tool up with, to put manners on those Insurance providers.
Mandatory caps on premiums, define a basic healthcare package and make it operate non-profit only (like in Germany and Netherlands).

Oh sure, the insurance companies are probably delighted in the short term, but perhaps we have now given them enough rope.. as they say.
Americans have accepted government mandated healthcare solutions and government legilsation is the toolset they'll use now to give those solutions the desired shape.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Amerika

This morning, watching a panel of mostly liberals and democrats discuss the shutdown and default debate, they turned the discussion to the Heritage Foundation's position that we cannot repeal ObamaCare until 2017, and must be accomplished by winning the Senate and the White House. One of the leftist panelists said ObamaCare won’t be repealed even if the GOP takes the Senate and the White House. That even if they take control, the GOP won’t have enough of the numbers to overturn it, and by then hundreds of thousands of people will be relying on the government subsidies to pay for their healthcare. The loan Republican noted that the Leftist panelist just made Ted Cruz’s case. That if the Right's claims are correct, then the only time we’ll ever have to stop what is fast proving the be the unaffordable and unsustainable train wreck ObamaCare was forecast to be, and the premiums realized under the act were far from affordable, the only time to correct the travesty is now or never. It was a deer-in-the-headlights moment on the part of the panel members and the discussion was quickly changed.

So the Democrats won, and the American people and fiscal sanity lost... welcome to the new America.

nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

In the same way universities and textbook companies would love if the administration made third level education free

And if they did, I'm sure the opposition would find a way of demonising it -

I can see it now..

"Your tax dollars being used for something that might not directly benefit you! Communism!"

And if textbook companies raised their prices to 400USD/book, had antitrust exemptions that made it a felony to import books from other countries where they sell for $15, and force all students to purchase the books or have their wages garnished by the IRS, then it should be demonized.

nagilum2

jman0war wrote: »

Insurance companies are already a cartel, and price gouging, and have been that way forever.
Perhaps with the Affordable Healthcare Act, they'll double down now.

But now that the genie is out of the bottle (government mandated healthcare solutions) it won't be so easy to put back.
That's ok, because there are any number of legilsative solutions that we could tool up with, to put manners on those Insurance providers.
Mandatory caps on premiums, define a basic healthcare package and make it operate non-profit only (like in Germany and Netherlands).

Oh sure, the insurance companies are probably delighted in the short term, but perhaps we have now given them enough rope.. as they say.
Americans have accepted government mandated healthcare solutions and government legilsation is the toolset they'll use now to give those solutions the desired shape.

There is no public option. Kucinich along with others fought for it with the White House and were shut down. There is no mechanism to control costs within the current US healthcare system and insurance companies are only a part of the problem. The pharma lobby and the medical device manufacturer lobbies are probably much worse.

nagilum2

Amerika wrote: »

This morning, watching a panel of mostly liberals and democrats discuss the shutdown and default debate, they turned the discussion to the Heritage Foundation's position that we cannot repeal ObamaCare until 2017, and must be accomplished by winning the Senate and the White House. One of the leftist panelists said ObamaCare won’t be repealed even if the GOP takes the Senate and the White House. That even if they take control, the GOP won’t have enough of the numbers to overturn it, and by then hundreds of thousands of people will be relying on the government subsidies to pay for their healthcare. The loan Republican noted that the Leftist panelist just made Ted Cruz’s case. That if the Right's claims are correct, then the only time we’ll ever have to stop what is fast proving the be the unaffordable and unsustainable train wreck ObamaCare was forecast to be, and the premiums realized under the act were far from affordable, the only time to correct the travesty is now or never. It was a deer-in-the-headlights moment on the part of the panel members and the discussion was quickly changed.

So the Democrats won, and the American people and fiscal sanity lost... welcome to the new America.

Healthcare is now at 19% of our GDP and rising fast. Rather than controlling costs by allowing reimportation of prescription drugs, repealing the health industry's antitrust exemption, and implementing major tort reform for malpractice, we choose to give handouts to crony big corporations on the backs of the taxpayer. And to add insult to injury, the website that cost over $600M to produce can't even successfully create accounts as of this morning when I tried, again, to see what the rates are.

But despite all that, it's a great success. Yes Borat.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

InTheTrees

nagilum2 wrote: »

Rather than controlling costs by allowing reimportation of prescription drugs, repealing the health industry's antitrust exemption, and implementing major tort reform for malpractice,

Tort reform. That's been a republican mantra over the years. Stop people from being able to sue doctors when they cut off the wrong arm and it'll really reduce costs because doctors wont need malpractice insurance anymore. Yay.

nagilum2

InTheTrees wrote: »

Tort reform. That's been a great republican mantra over the years. Stop people from being able to sue doctors when they cut off the wrong arm and it'll really reduce costs because doctors wont need malpractice insurance anymore. Yay.

Not stop, limit.

There is an unprecedented shortage of obstetricians, for instance. According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the cost of malpractice insurance may not be sustainable for an obstetrician who is not performing a large number of deliveries. Tort reform is needed to correct this. You could do it simply by limiting the percentage of the settlement that the lawyer can take, which is right now typically 40-50%.

Besides, tort reform is only part of the cost solution.

InTheTrees

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Given the stranglehold large corporations have over us politics there wasn't a hope in hell of getting "government provided" heathcare past Congress.

nagilum2

InTheTrees wrote: »

Given the stranglehold large corporations have over us politics there wasn't a hope in hell of getting "government provided" heathcare past Congress.

The democrats passed the whole thing without a single republican vote. What's their excuse?

InTheTrees

nagilum2 wrote: »

Healthcare is now at 19% of our GDP and rising fast. Rather than controlling costs by allowing reimportation of prescription drugs, repealing the health industry's antitrust exemption, and implementing major tort reform for malpractice, .

This is just the ryan plan. Already endlessly debated. None of those things do anything to control the massive costs of treating the uninsured in emergency rooms which is where the us spends the most on "healthcare".

InTheTrees

nagilum2 wrote: »

The democrats passed the whole thing without a single republican vote. What's their excuse?

Excuse?

It passed. That's the idea.

nagilum2

InTheTrees wrote: »

This is just the ryan plan. Already endlessly debated. None of those things do anything to control the massive costs of treating the uninsured in emergency rooms which is where the us spends the most on "healthcare".

That's not the Ryan plan at all. In fact if anything the Ryan plan would have strengthened the antitrust exemptions enjoyed by the medical lobby. It would likely have been just as bad as Obamacare, just in a different way.

nagilum2

InTheTrees wrote: »

Excuse?

It passed. That's the idea.

They didn't need a single republican vote to pass it. They passed it with only democratic votes. Since you're so keen on blaming the republicans for everything I was just curious what excuse you think they should make for passing such a bill that is a giant handout to crony corporations.

Amerika

nagilum2 wrote: »

Healthcare is now at 19% of our GDP and rising fast.

Add to that the fact that the federal government takes in about $2.5 Trillion in revenues annually, spends about $3.5 Trillion, and annual interest on our ever-growing debt is fast approaching the $500 Billion mark. What will they be when interest rates start to rise again? The deal just reached in Congress allows the government to spend without limit until February, without any consequences. What will we do if China decides to stop funding our unsustainable spending? Since 2008, we have been borrowing on average $1 Trillion more than we bring in, and it appears we will continue to do so with no end in sight. And starting next year, how are the subsidies provided by the government for ObamaCare to be paid for? Will it take a Greece moment when the US government, after realizing there are not enough rich to tax (the Democrats answer to everything) for all the government’s spending, and has to confiscate people's savings to keep us from not going to over the deep end?

Why are we not storming the Capital building with pitchforks and torches?

nagilum2

Amerika wrote: »

Why are we not storming the Capital building with pitchforks and torches?

Because everyone is in denial that the bond markets could ever move against the US. But that day is coming...the only question is when.

Paleface

How can people not see that Ted Cruz' role in all of this was nothing more than to boost his own 2016 Presidential candidacy??

It was a stunt pure and simple. He is a chancer!

Also his prospective opponents namely Christie, Rubio, Paul and Ryan will hang him out to dry for it come the candidate debates. Just wait and see!

Jonny7

Amerika wrote: »

Why are we not storming the Capital building with pitchforks and torches?

Why are you not leading the charge.. what's your excuse

Amerika

Jonny7 wrote: »

Why are you not leading the charge.. what's your excuse

Oh trust me, I figuratively am. My Senators (Toomey likes me, Casey doesn't) and my Representatives (federal and state) receive correspondence from me on a regular basis. I also go to local events in which politicians attend and talk to them one on one.

Jonny7

Amerika wrote: »

Oh trust me, I figuratively am. My Senators (Toomey likes me, Casey doesn't) and my Representatives (federal and state) receive correspondence from me on a regular basis. I also go to local events in which politicians attend and talk to them one on one.

Unless you have this daubed on the back of your car you aren't pulling your weight ;p

nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

Unless you have this daubed on the back of your car you aren't pulling your weight ;p

These people are right up there with the Bush is worse than Hitler crowd.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

20Cent

That's not a typo, the tea party latest is the Obama is actually a giant ant and are demanding a dna test.

nagilum2

20Cent wrote: »

That's not a typo, the tea party latest is the Obama is actually a giant ant and are demanding a dna test.

obligatory

Amerika

Another speech... YIPEE! Later this morning President Obama will reassure Americans that ObamaCare is not the train wreck it is perceived to be in the eyes of all Americans without a (D) behind their name. Will the help of the best and brightest minds from inside and outside the government provide the necessary "tech surge" needed to stop the onslaught of bad press, and little else? Or perhaps 9 women really can give birth to a baby in 1 month? Even with the tech interventions, the HHS can’t guarantee that the system will be fixed in time for people to meet the deadline of the individual mandate.

And will the President alert the people in his speech to the fact that after the website is fixed, that they should be prepared for the escalation in premium prices, high deductibles and high co-pays that await us? (Any bets?)

Here’s a little symbolic preview of his speech:

Jonny7

Amerika wrote: »

Another speech... YIPEE! Later this morning President Obama will reassure Americans that ObamaCare is not the train wreck it is perceived to be in the eyes of all Americans without a (D) behind their name. Will the help of the best and brightest minds from inside and outside the government provide the necessary "tech surge" needed to stop the onslaught of bad press, and little else? Or perhaps 9 women really can give birth to a baby in 1 month? Even with the tech interventions, the HHS can’t guarantee that the system will be fixed in time for people to meet the deadline of the individual mandate.

And will the President alert the people in his speech to the fact that after the website is fixed, that they should be prepared for the escalation in premium prices, high deductibles and high co-pays that await us? (Any bets?)

What healthcare system could Obama introduce that you would support?

clairefontaine

Jonny7 wrote: »

What healthcare system could Obama introduce that you would support?

One that tackled in house billing fraud an why an Advil pill costs $10.

nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

What healthcare system could Obama introduce that you would support?

To speak for myself, instead of forcing everyone to participate in the the healthcare lobby's money extortion scheme, we'd do well to actually fix some of the underlying issues by taking away their antitrust exemptions, among other things.

Jonny7

clairefontaine wrote: »

One that tackled in house billing fraud an why an Advil pill costs $10.

What fraud is this?

Many countries with universal healthcare can often only subsidise prescription costs.

clairefontaine

Jonny7 wrote: »

What fraud is this?

Many countries with universal healthcare can often only subsidise prescription costs.

The fraud complicity between HMOs and in house billing. The fraud that padds up the bill. The lack of transparency and the exemption from anti trust laws the medical cartel and pharma seem to enjoy.

Jonny7

clairefontaine wrote: »

The fraud complicity between HMOs and in house billing. The fraud that padds up the bill. The lack of transparency and the exemption from anti trust laws the medical cartel and pharma seem to enjoy.

Give examples?

nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

Give examples?

LMGTFY:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=US+medical+industry+antitrust+exemptions

Stingerbar

nagilum2 wrote: »

LMGTFY:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=US+medical+industry+antitrust+exemptions

To which I find

"WASHINGTON — President Obama mounted a frontal assault on the insurance industry on Saturday, accusing it of using “deceptive and dishonest ads” to derail his health care legislation and threatening to strip the industry of its longstanding exemption from federal antitrust laws.

In unusually harsh terms, Mr. Obama cast insurance companies as obstacles to change interested only in preserving their own “profits and bonuses” and willing to “bend the truth or break it” to stop his drive to remake the nation’s health care system. The president used his weekly radio and Internet address to challenge industry assertions that legislation will drive up premiums."

InTheTrees

Its worth remembering that this leglislation has been publically debated, debated in congress, and debated in the media over three years ago.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its worth remembering that this leglislation has been publically debated, debated in congress, and debated in the media over three years ago.

So was the Secure Fence Act of 2006. Your point?

nagilum2

Stingerbar wrote: »

To which I find

"WASHINGTON — President Obama mounted a frontal assault on the insurance industry on Saturday, accusing it of using “deceptive and dishonest ads” to derail his health care legislation and threatening to strip the industry of its longstanding exemption from federal antitrust laws.

In unusually harsh terms, Mr. Obama cast insurance companies as obstacles to change interested only in preserving their own “profits and bonuses” and willing to “bend the truth or break it” to stop his drive to remake the nation’s health care system. The president used his weekly radio and Internet address to challenge industry assertions that legislation will drive up premiums."

LOL. So do I take it from your comment that you believe we should base our opinions on what the politician says, rather than what they actually do?

nagilum2

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its worth remembering that this leglislation has been publically debated, debated in congress, and debated in the media over three years ago.

Yes, it was debated. It was debated by two parties that are more interested in continuing to line their pockets by enabling the medical industry to fleece the public instead of fixing anything.

Jonny7

nagilum2 wrote: »

Yes, it was debated. It was debated by two parties that are more interested in continuing to line their pockets by enabling the medical industry to fleece the public instead of fixing anything.

I thought the Republicans were opposing, blocking, delaying it at every step.

nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

I thought the Republicans were opposing, blocking, delaying it at every step.

They did try to block it. In fact it passed without a single republican vote.

Of course that doesn't change the fact that the republicans are every bit as vested in helping out the medical lobby as the democrats.

The point is that none of the debate or plans offered from the leadership of either side went toward the real cost drivers within the system.

clairefontaine

nagilum2 wrote: »

They did try to block it. In fact it passed without a single republican vote.

Of course that doesn't change the fact that the republicans are every bit as vested in helping out the medical lobby as the democrats.

The point is that none of the debate or plans offered from the leadership of either side went toward the real cost drivers within the system.

Exactly. And my feeling is because they did not tackle the very obvious elephant in the room, and because both parties agreed to all those corporate exemptions, exploited the latest White House embarrassment of this Mexican stand off, was just another White House spectacle to keep the people deceived while they line their pockets, and there is huge money to be made from this legislation, but not for the people forced to buy healthcare.

Jonny7

nagilum2 wrote: »

Of course that doesn't change the fact that the republicans are every bit as vested in helping out the medical lobby as the democrats.

So you're saying its a conspiracy?

Amerika

nagilum2 wrote: »

The point is that none of the debate or plans offered from the leadership of either side went toward the real cost drivers within the system.

Actually, the forgotten GW Bush health care plan of 2007 was pretty decent. It would have expanded health care coverage to an additional 11 million people, and CBO estimates of the impact of tax legislation projected it would reduce the deficit by $334 billion from 2008 to 2017.
　
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2012/04/30/how-george-w-bush-would-have-replaced-obamacare/