Obamacare & Government Shutdowns

Permabear

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clairefontaine

Jonny7 wrote: »

So you're saying its a conspiracy?

It's hardly a conspiracy when its so friggin obvious.

Paleface

So we have the Republicans and Democrats conspiring secretly to pass Obamacare in the knowledge that it will line the pockets of their wealthy donors whilst at the same time they are waging a public war over its passing that led to a government shutdown and flirted with the US defaulting on its debt obligations.

Have I read the last few posts right?!

clairefontaine

Paleface wrote: »

So we have the Republicans and Democrats conspiring secretly to pass Obamacare in the knowledge that it will line the pockets of their wealthy donors whilst at the same time they are waging a public war over its passing that led to a government shutdown and flirted with the US defaulting on its debt obligations.

Have I read the last few posts right?!

Yes you have.

Don't forget it was Justice Roberts who ruled on its Constitionality.

Permabear

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Jonny7

Permabear wrote: »

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He is the author of a book called “Extortion: How Politicians Extract Your Money, Buy Votes and Line Their Own Pockets.”"

So..

he..

writes editorials in, for example, the NY Times to sell books..

Hey this conspiracy thing is great, can use to lazily explain everything

InTheTrees

Paleface wrote: »

Have I read the last few posts right?!

I know.

You cant make this stuff up.

(What happened to the "Right Wing Bubble" thread?).

clairefontaine

InTheTrees wrote: »

I know.

You cant make this stuff up.

(What happened to the "Right Wing Bubble" thread?).

Follow the money Inthetrees, it tells you all you need to know.

Once you accept that EVERYTHING is business, especially in the US, things get a lot clearer.

Permabear

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Permabear

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clairefontaine

Permabear wrote: »

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Terrific observations as usual PErmabear. I learn so much from your posts.

Its apparent naïveté I suppose, but its so obvious what is going on, its hard to believe that people can't see it, that there is any credibility in the authenticity of the White Houses media shows.

Jonny7

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I was taking the mick out of some of the conspiracy theories cropping up in here

nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

I was taking the mick out of some of the conspiracy theories cropping up in here

It's not a conspiracy. It's just status quo. Permabear hit the nail on the head as to why the parties maintain this artificial war-like state between them. Keeps everyone is too concerned with which party is winning to realize that they're both screwing all of us over.

To the degree that they are upset with each other, it's only because (in the case of ACA for instance), the democrats got to take care of their cronies more than the republicans got to take care of theirs. The party that drives legislation commands more crony dollars.

Jonny7

nagilum2 wrote: »

It's not a conspiracy. It's just status quo. Permabear hit the nail on the head as to why the parties maintain this artificial war-like state between them. Keeps everyone is too concerned with which party is winning to realize that they're both screwing all of us over.

To the degree that they are upset with each other, it's only because (in the case of ACA for instance), the democrats got to take care of their cronies more than the republicans got to take care of theirs. The party that drives legislation commands more crony dollars.

What would have to happen for you not to believe in this conspiracy theory?

20Cent

Someone break open the right wing truth bubble thread its needed !

nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

What would have to happen for you not to believe in this conspiracy theory?

Less price dislocation here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/26/21-graphs-that-show-americas-health-care-prices-are-ludicrous/

combined with a significant reduction in the the nearly $263 million dollars in political campaign donations made to both parties in the 2012 election cycle.

also combined with an outlawing of some of the practices highlighted here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50157523n

Now your turn. How many facts and examples do we have to provide before you take off your blinders and agree that the political class screws everyone?

EDIT: It is not a "conspiracy" theory. It's not secret and covert. It's being done right out in the open for all to see. The problem is that many folks such as yourself are too caught up in the republican vs democrat debate to pay any attention

nagilum2

20Cent wrote: »

Someone break open the right wing truth bubble thread its needed !

Please explain what you consider right wing in this context.

Amerika

With all the people getting screwed by politicians posts, I wanted to post a shimmer of light. As a result of Congress and the President exempting themselves and staff from mandates of ObamaCare, Rand Paul (R) has introduced a Constitutional amendment that would hold government officials to the same standard as the American people. No special treatment for Congress, the Executive Branch and the Judicial Branch.

Of course chances of the proposal becoming the 28th amendment of the U.S. Constitution are very remote as it will take both Houses of Congress to support it with a two thirds vote, and then going to each of the 50 states where three fourths of their legislatures would need to approve it.

But if it were voted down, it sure will make the next election rather interesting.

S. J. RES. 25

　

'Section 1. Congress shall make no law applicable to a citizen of the United States that is not equally applicable to Congress.

'Section 2. Congress shall make no law applicable to a citizen of the United States that is not equally applicable to the executive branch of Government, including the President, Vice President, ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and all other officers of the United States, including those provided for under this Constitution and by law, and inferior officers to the President established by law.

'Section 3. Congress shall make no law applicable to a citizen of the United States that is not equally applicable to judges of the Supreme Court of the United States, including the Chief Justice, and judges of such inferior courts as Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.

'Section 4. Nothing in this article shall preempt any specific provision of this Constitution.

http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1011

20Cent

nagilum2 wrote: »

Please explain what you consider right wing in this context.

Big government scamming everyone to enrich themselves why not let the "free market" solve everything. Classic tea party right wing extremist nonsense.

nagilum2

20Cent wrote: »

Big government scamming everyone to enrich themselves why not let the "free market" solve everything. Classic tea party right wing extremist nonsense.

Well, we have a government-industrial complex system where the strong arm of government helps pass laws to entrench corporate interests while the politicians get rich off donations.

Feel free to call it nonsense if it makes you sleep better at night but that doesn't make the situation any less real.

Manach

nagilum2 wrote: »

Well, we have a government-industrial complex system where the strong arm of government helps pass laws to entrench corporate interests while the politicians get rich off donations..

A close enough description of an aspect of an economic theory of law dealing with the power of special interests, mirroring work by Richard Posner.

nagilum2

Amerika wrote: »

With all the people getting screwed by politicians posts, I wanted to post a shimmer of light. As a result of Congress and the President exempting themselves and staff from mandates of ObamaCare, Rand Paul (R) has introduced a Constitutional amendment that would hold government officials to the same standard as the American people. No special treatment for Congress, the Executive Branch and the Judicial Branch.

Of course chances of the proposal becoming the 28th amendment of the U.S. Constitution are very remote as it will take both Houses of Congress to support it with a two thirds vote, and then going to each of the 50 states where three fourths of their legislatures would need to approve it.

But if it were voted down, it sure will make the next election rather interesting.



http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1011

I support, but it will never pass. I think what actually has to happen is that the deliberate destruction of purchasing power has to continue on for a few more years until its effects are more pronounced. At some point, when things get bad enough, people will stand up and demand this law or something akin to it. Until then, we will keep the existing system while folks watch keeping up with kardashians.

20Cent

nagilum2 wrote: »

Well, we have a government-industrial complex system where the strong arm of government helps pass laws to entrench corporate interests while the politicians get rich off donations.

Feel free to call it nonsense if it makes you sleep better at night but that doesn't make the situation any less real.

Corporations do have too much influence of course but the idea that the solution is to de fang government and let the mytical free market do everything is tea party libertarian nonsense.

Jonny7

nagilum2 wrote: »

Now your turn. How many facts and examples do we have to provide before you take off your blinders and agree that the political class screws everyone?

EDIT: It is not a "conspiracy" theory. It's not secret and covert. It's being done right out in the open for all to see. The problem is that many folks such as yourself are too caught up in the republican vs democrat debate to pay any attention

You've been watching too much "House of Cards" me thinks.

Permabear

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nagilum2

20Cent wrote: »

Corporations do have too much influence of course but the idea that the solution is to de fang government and let the mytical free market do everything is tea party libertarian nonsense.

Government has a critical role to play in society. That role is to create and enforce a set of rules that are (1) ideally as simple and non-obtrusive as possible (2) that everyone must abide by. The laws passed in the US are diametrically opposed to those two attributes. Highly complicated and littered with special, purchased exemptions or handouts.

Because those two things are NOT true, as it stands now, the companies often that WANT the most regulation are the big megacorps. They help WRITE the laws through their lobbyists that put a giant regulatory moat around their businesses that make it much more difficult for upstarts to challenge them. Or in the case of big finance, they have connections in and out of the regulator apparatus so they are almost never the targets, and if they are they settle out with no criminal penalties. Only the small fish get really fried. Of course they also help establish and maintain tax loopholes that are so complex that ONLY large businesses can take advantage of them. Good luck if you're a small business trying to pay $0 in taxes on $14B in profits. You'd get thrown in jail. Their CEO gets a trip to the white house to see the president. Maybe a few pork barrel government contracts as well. That is but one example. There are many more if you care to investigate.

clairefontaine

nagilum2 wrote: »

Government has a critical role to play in society. That role is to create and enforce a set of rules that are (1) ideally as simple and non-obtrusive as possible (2) that everyone must abide by. The laws passed in the US are diametrically opposed to those two attributes. Highly complicated and littered with special, purchased exemptions or handouts.

Because those two things are NOT true, as it stands now, the companies often that WANT the most regulation are the big megacorps. They help WRITE the laws through their lobbyists that put a giant regulatory moat around their businesses that make it much more difficult for upstarts to challenge them. Or in the case of big finance, they have connections in and out of the regulator apparatus so they are almost never the targets, and if they are they settle out with no criminal penalties. Only the small fish get really fried. Of course they also help establish and maintain tax loopholes that are so complex that ONLY large businesses can take advantage of them. Good luck if you're a small business trying to pay $0 in taxes on $14B in profits. You'd get thrown in jail. Their CEO gets a trip to the white house to see the president. Maybe a few pork barrel government contracts as well. That is but one example. There are many more if you care to investigate.

If you also consider all our police brutality and the militarisation of the police, that these hired guns work for the government, who in turn work for lobbyists and corporate interests, its like an undeclared civil war against its own people.

I'm neither tea party or libertarian, I don't fit in with either. I pick and choose from both but don't wholly subscribe to either, and that's partially because I feel subscribing to any one ideology, whichever one it may be, can force you into paradigms where you lose perspective and empathy.

Jonny7

clairefontaine wrote: »

If you also consider all our police brutality and the militarisation of the police, that these hired guns work for the government, who in turn work for lobbyists and corporate interests, its like an undeclared civil war against its own people.

It's worse than Nazi Germany really when you think about it

sin_city

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's worse than Nazi Germany really when you think about it

Mid 1930s nazi Germany or the war years?

It's good that you made the comparision because I guess you've been to the US lately and that you have good knowledge of Nazi Germany.

From all your posts you have displayed a high level of intelligence and knowledge

Jonny7

sin_city wrote: »

It's good that you made the comparision because I guess you've been to the US lately and that you have good knowledge of Nazi Germany.

Well it was tongue-in-cheek, but do you see any comparisons?

jman0war

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'm neither tea party or libertarian, I don't fit in with either. I pick and choose from both but don't wholly subscribe to either, and that's partially because I feel subscribing to any one ideology, whichever one it may be, can force you into paradigms where you lose perspective and empathy.

"Tea Party" and "Libertarian" are just populist flags of convenience for "Republican".

nagilum2

jman0war wrote: »

"Tea Party" and "Libertarian" are just populist flags of convenience for "Republican".

Either that, or deliberately conflating "Tea Party", "Libertarian", and "Republican" is an easy way for the intellectually lazy to avoid bothering to learn about the very real differences between them.

Jonny7

nagilum2 wrote: »

Either that, or deliberately conflating "Tea Party", "Libertarian", and "Republican" is an easy way for the intellectually lazy to avoid bothering to learn about the very real differences between them.

Or an even easier lazier way is to just surmise that all of these different parties work together to "screw everyone".

nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

Or an even easier lazier way is to just surmise that all of these different parties work together to "screw everyone".

I think if you'd bothered to read anything I, Permabear, or Clair wrote instead of just saying that we watch too much house of cards (super constructive comment there, btw), you'd have seen the argument was actually not that they screw everyone.

Jonny7

nagilum2 wrote: »

I think if you'd bothered to read anything I, Permabear, or Clair wrote instead of just saying that we watch too much house of cards (super constructive comment there, btw), you'd have seen the argument was actually not that they screw everyone.

Now your turn. How many facts and examples do we have to provide before you take off your blinders and agree that the political class screws everyone?

Well which is it?

Permabear

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nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

Well which is it?

Fair enough let me clarify. Everyone does not include political class does not include themselves, their corporate sponsors, or their special interest group sponsors. In other words, it doesn't include the majority of sources of funding the make the system self-perpetuating.

nagilum2

Permabear wrote: »

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It's funny one of the reasons I originally came to these boards was because when I first started reading them, I perceived them to have a more nuanced view of things than what you have described above. Unfortunately things seem to have have regressed considerably since then.

The dominant argument is now simple, "let me see how I can lump x y z argument in with republicans or simply 'the right' so I can simply dismiss it out of hand. Because who doesn't hate republicans, right?

nagilum2

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The vote to defund the NSA (the Amash amendment) was one of the most interesting votes in some time. In terms of party-breakdown, it was actually one of the most bipartisan votes in quite a while. When the votes were mapped, there was one swatch cutting through most of the mountain states where the vast majority voted for defunding regardless of party affiliation. That vote showed that clearly there are major differences in policy that are more tied to region than party.

clairefontaine

It basically comes down to more ad hominem.

And so what if Tea Party And Libertarians are part of or influences of republicans? Republicans traditionally have sought less federal and more state (decisms on) control, so that would make sense.

Seriously, then johnny7 you bring in the nazis? Did you just Godwin the thread? Is nazi Germany your bottom line? Is that your red line in the sand for what you will and won't accept from your government ?

Permabear

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jman0war

clairefontaine wrote: »

It basically comes down to more ad hominem.

And so what if Tea Party And Libertarians are part of or influences of republicans? Republicans traditionally have sought less federal and more state (decisms on) control, so that would make sense.

So it's an ad hominem attack to call you a Republican; but in the very next sentence you rationalize why you are a Republican.

Make up your mind.

nagilum2

jman0war wrote: »

So it's an ad hominem attack to call you a Republican; but in the very next sentence you rationalize why you are a Republican.

Make up your mind.

She didn't say she was a Republican, she said there has traditionally been an overlap between small government philosophy and the Republican party.

clairefontaine

jman0war wrote: »

So it's an ad hominem attack to call you a Republican; but in the very next sentence you rationalize why you are a Republican.

Make up your mind.

No it's not an ad hominem to call someone a republican, unless you are trying to use it as an insult and invalidate an argument with the name caller perceives as an insult.

Jonny7

clairefontaine wrote: »

Seriously, then johnny7 you bring in the nazis? Did you just Godwin the thread? Is nazi Germany your bottom line? Is that your red line in the sand for what you will and won't accept from your government ?

If you also consider all our police brutality and the militarisation of the police, that these hired guns work for the government, who in turn work for lobbyists and corporate interests, its like an undeclared civil war against its own people.

I don't know but you should definitely send the above to Alex Jones.

First world political problems : invent dystopian totalitarian state - get angry at said invention

Permabear

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clairefontaine

Jonny7 wrote: »

I don't know but you should definitely send the above to Alex Jones.

First world political problems : invent dystopian totalitarian state - get angry at said invention

How about the 13 year old boy just shot yesterday by California police because he was carrying a toy gun?

How about the militarisation of the CIA and the NYC police department?

Many many more examples if you do your research.

Paleface

You can't bring up examples of the militarization of law enforcement without also mentioning that most Americans think its fine to have a gun concealed on their person at all times.

As shocking as that story is about the young boy who was killed how were they supposed to know it was a toy gun unless they waited for him to fire at them?

In most other countries it would be highly irregular for anyone on the street to have a gun let alone a kid!

InTheTrees

Jonny7 wrote: »

First world political problems : invent dystopian totalitarian state - get angry at said invention

Right Wing political tactics.

They wont allow any type of gun control and yet they get upset with the "militarization" of the cops to cope with increased gun violence?

Jonny7

Permabear wrote: »

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She referred to the situation as "an undeclared civil war".

Polarisation and generalisation are a big part of the problem with this debate and the wider issue, something I think you'd agree with considering your last remarks on the auld generalisations