Sky's JTL may be in hot water

Inquitus

Today's Sunday times breaks the news that the UCI have requested an explanation for what amounts to suspicious blood passport indications. It is understood his values from around the time he won the 2012 Tour of Britain do not compare well with his 2013 tests while at Sky. Just to clarify, it is the 2012 results for which an explanation is required, not the results since joining Sky. This is also the reason he withdrew from the GB worlds squad this week.

You'll have to buy a copy of the Sunday Times for the full Walsh story.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/10342305/Sky-rider-Jonathan-Tiernan-Locke-quizzed-over-blood-tests-after-pulling-out-of-world-championship-road-race.html

Darkglasses

According to the Sunday Times, Tiernan-Locke's irregular blood values date back to the last four months of 2012, when he raced for Endura. Cyclingnews' Daniel Benson spoke to Jonathan Tiernan-Locke's 2012 manager, Brian Smith and he explained that both Garmin and Sky had found Tiernan-Locke's 2012 blood values to their satisfaction.
“Jonathan Vaughters got in contact and said there were no abnormalities of John’s test and that they’d still like to progress with a possible chat of taking him on," Smith said. "Then Sky approached him and took him to a training camp in Tenerife at the start of May. They started testing him and because of his interest in wanting to sign for them and their interest, we then asked if Sky would take him under their wing until the end of the season. Which they obviously decided to do."

It'll probably blow over.

ROK ON

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tiernan-locke-called-to-clarify-irregular-blood-values

Refers to his time last season - pre Sky.

I recall at one of the early season races where he blew the peleton away, that afterwards Dan Martin raised some suspicions and pointed out there there was no testing at the race - either Tour the Med or Haute Var.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/jonathan-tiernan-locke-illness-doping-rumours-and-his-road-to-the-top

Beasty

Thread title changed;)

Normal "speculation" rules continue to apply - we cannot pre-judge any investigation

Thanks

gordongekko

Well im guessing his values have dropped since he joined sky so there is no systematic doping in sky. For me this is a positive news story.

buffalo

gordongekko wrote: »

Well im guessing his values have dropped since he joined sky so there is no systematic doping in sky. For me this is a positive news story.

David Walsh drags him over the coals a bit in today's ST. For all his access to Sky, JTL didn't answer Smith's calls or respond to voicemail. Sounds dodge.

ROK ON

It is worth recalling that similar to Chris Froome that JTL has a long history of illness.

It could well be the case that he was ill for various years, healthy last year and ill again this year.

Either way he has had a rotten season - he has a history of training on instinict - so maybe he simply does not fit with the Sky approach.

gordongekko

buffalo wrote: »

David Smith drags him over the coals a bit in today's ST. For all his access to Sky, JTL didn't answer Smith's calls or respond to voicemail. Sounds dodge.

David Smith? Do you mean David Walsh?

gordongekko

ROK ON wrote: »

It is worth recalling that similar to Chris Froome that JTL has a long history of illness.

It could well be the case that he was ill for various years, healthy last year and ill again this year.

Either way he has had a rotten season - he has a history of training on instinict - so maybe he simply does not fit with the Sky approach.

ya that struck me as well but what is it with cyclists and major illnesses.

RobFowl

We'' the UCI have now announced they have asked British Cycling and the UKADA to start proceedings against JLT for an anti-doping rule violations. He's still innocent until proven guilty but his agent Andrew McQuaid (son of Pat) has issued a statement saying he will not take part in any Sky activities until this issue is resolved.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-opens-biological-passport-case-against-team-skys-jonathan-tiernan-locke

godtabh

Is the wording of the UCI statement funny? As in he isnt accused of doping just a rule violation

RobFowl

godtabh wrote: »

Is the wording of the UCI statement funny? As in he isnt accused of doping just a rule violation

Thats just the way they word it. They are accusing him of doping.

bazermc

Interesting photo of JTL from the RTE website

http://www.rte.ie/sport/cycling/2013/1217/493374-team-sky-rider-faces-disciplinary-action/

RobFowl

Here's one of him winning a stage of the Ras in 2010

00833827

bazermc wrote: »

Interesting photo of JTL from the RTE website

http://www.rte.ie/sport/cycling/2013/1217/493374-team-sky-rider-faces-disciplinary-action/

i recall that stage was shortened due to snow? hence no podium etc and why it looks like a league race

RobFowl

00833827 wrote: »

i recall that stage was shortened due to snow? hence no podium etc and why it looks like a league race

I recall some of the French Pro tour teams making veiled comments about the lack of the biological passport in Pro continental teams back after that race. There were just short of accusing JLT of doping.
I saw some comments on twitter about having sympathy for JLT but if it were an Spanish rider would we feel the same?
It a fair point but I do hope there is an explanation other than doping, Sky seem to have hung him out to dry though. Their comments don't really offer him any support at all....

Darkglasses

RobFowl wrote: »

I saw some comments on twitter about having sympathy for JLT but if it were an Spanish rider would we feel the same?

I would say any sympathy at all is to do with people's bias towards British/Team Sky riders. I would have no sympathy for anyone caught doping in the present climate (if the allegations/charges are correct).

RobFowl

Darkglasses wrote: »

I would say any sympathy at all is to do with people's bias towards British/Team Sky riders. I would have no sympathy for anyone caught doping in the present climate (if the allegations/charges are correct).

I suppose the point is if he were Spanish we'd all assume he's guilty but because he's British some (and I'm guilty of this) kind of hope he's innocent.

I would have pity on anyone who's caught doping to an extent but fully expect them to get the book thrown at them if found guilty....

Times have changed and 2-4 years is going to be the standard ban from here on and rightly so, I remember Gert Jan Theunisse getting only a 10 minute time penalty for being caught taking testosterone in the 1988 TDF

Slo_Rida

You can't beat a good doping thread!

Surely it should be lifetime bans if the testers are positive that a rider is positive?

Darkglasses

RobFowl wrote: »

I suppose the point is if he were Spanish we'd all assume he's guilty but because he's British some (and I'm guilty of this) kind of hope he's innocent.

Funny you should mention that, just heard of this -

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/volta-a-portugal-winner-alex-marque-tests-positive

Alex Marque has just tested positive, receives a 2 year ban from cycling, as well as losing his Volta a Portugal overall win and his new Movistar contract.

Alex Marque issued a statement on his Facebook today saying that he possessed a TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption) for the use of betamethasone. The UCI, the anti-doping inspector and his team were aware he had taken the product.

"Betamethasone is a product which is allowed but not during races," he said. "Just before the Tour of Portugal, the most important race on the calendar in Portugal, my participation was in serious danger because of problems with my right knee. I received oral treatment with betamethasone and physiotherapy but to no avail. I had the product injected in my knee twice. My team and the UCI knew about this.

"When I was tested I also told the doping inspector of the product. There was no concealment from my part but I didn't go public with it because I didn't want to alert my rivals in the race. I consider the presence of the substance in my body sufficiently declared and have now received treatment for the knee with regards to the new season. The use of betamethasone was prescripted. I had no intent to deceive."

I'd say if JTL had a similar story there would indeed be more sympathy than what Marque will receive.

RobFowl

Slo_Rida wrote: »

You can't beat a good doping thread!

Surely it should be lifetime bans if the testers are positive that a rider is positive?

Wada are bringing in 4 year ones as standard for a first offence from Jan 1st 2014. Second offences are going to be life bans as standard.
There is still reluctance to give life bans for a first offence among many countries and sports (unless your name is Lance).
I think 4 years then life is about right and gives everyone the chance to make a mistake without being barred from all sport for life.

RobFowl

Darkglasses wrote: »

Funny you should mention that, just heard of this -

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/volta-a-portugal-winner-alex-marque-tests-positive

Alex Marque has just tested positive, receives a 2 year ban from cycling, as well as losing his Volta a Portugal overall win and his new Movistar contract.



I'd say if JTL had a similar story there would indeed be more sympathy than what Marque will receive.

That sounds harsh!

Non inhalered corticosteroids are one of the most common doping methods used though and his Doctors should have know better than to give him those close to competition.
ISC rules advised a 14 day break from competition after them, and the MPCC advise similar..

Lumen

Lance's backdated TUE casts a long shadow.

Junior

RobFowl wrote: »

Wada are bringing in 4 year ones as standard for a first offence from Jan 1st 2014. Second offences are going to be life bans as standard.
There is still reluctance to give life bans for a first offence among many countries and sports (unless your name is Lance).
I think 4 years then life is about right and gives everyone the chance to make a mistake without being barred from all sport for life.

To be ecumenical has there been any successful passport cases as opposed to a straight doping case ?

From where I'm looking a Passport case is like a court case based on circumstantial evidence but with professionals giving evidence not eye witnesses - so how likely are they to get a conviction from it ?

Inquitus

Is anyone really surprised given JTL's career profile? didn't surprise when it first came out, doesn't surprise now.

Henlars67

Slo_Rida wrote: »

You can't beat a good doping thread!

Surely it should be lifetime bans if the testers are positive that a rider is positive?

I'd be in favour of that for things like EPO and blood transfusions, but not for all offences.

Accidental doping can happen, though I'd say about 90% of those who claim to have taken something without knowing it's a banned substance are lying.

Nevertheless it is possible, so I don't think lifetime bans can ever be used for every doping offence.

Diarmuid

Henlars67 wrote: »

Accidental doping can happen, though I'd say about 90% of those who claim to have taken something without knowing it's a banned substance are lying.
.

How are you going to distinguish between the 10% and the 90% though?

a148pro

I love the fact that his agent is pat mcquaid's son

Russman

Sacrificial lamb

Henlars67

Diarmuid wrote: »

How are you going to distinguish between the 10% and the 90% though?

Did you even read the rest of my post?

You can't distinguish, that's why you can't have lifetime bans for all offences.

Macy0161

RobFowl wrote: »

It a fair point but I do hope there is an explanation other than doping, Sky seem to have hung him out to dry though. Their comments don't really offer him any support at all....

By his own admission he hasn't fitted in with the Sky way of doing things, so suits them to get out of the contract.

Maybe it is because he is an English speaker, so we knew about his issues with s
Skys training regime before there was any hint of a bio passport case. That's probably why I'd give him more benefit of the doubt than some Spanish rider I know nothing about. Hasn't really sat well the way Walsh has latched on to him to prove he's still a hard core anti doping hack either tbh (thought he was way OTT on the humans invent podcast for example).

bobcranfret

Junior wrote: »

To be ecumenical has there been any successful passport cases as opposed to a straight doping case ?

From where I'm looking a Passport case is like a court case based on circumstantial evidence but with professionals giving evidence not eye witnesses - so how likely are they to get a conviction from it ?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

Darkglasses

Just been reported that JTL's been given a two year ban (31.12.2015)

Chips Lovell

Published here:
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTU3Mjg&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=Nzk5OTY&LangId=1

ZiabR

Darkglasses wrote: »

Just been reported that JTL's been given a two year ban (31.12.2015)

Shame, not sure what to believe in JTL's case. With the level of testing done today, it becomes very very hard to get away with doping. I think I am right in saying cycling is one of the highest tested sports now.

RobFowl

Does that mean he was banned from 31/12/13 ?

Sick of these announcements by stealth.

Genuinely though we were going to get more transparency and openness from the UCI.

Zzippy

But, but... I thought Sky were clean and tested their riders to the nth degree so none of this could possibly happen...?

Darkglasses

RobFowl wrote: »

Does that mean he was banned from 31/12/13 ?

Sick of these announcements by stealth.

Genuinely though we were going to get more transparency and openness from the UCI.

I suppose it does, or else the ban was back-dated (if that's the correct word)?

Inquitus

Zzippy wrote: »

But, but... I thought Sky were clean and tested their riders to the nth degree so none of this could possibly happen...?

It relates entirely to before he joined Sky

Shakakan

Zzippy wrote: »

But, but... I thought Sky were clean and tested their riders to the nth degree so none of this could possibly happen...?

He appears to have doped before he joined Sky. They've highlighted that a lot.

Chips Lovell

RobFowl wrote: »

Does that mean he was banned from 31/12/13 ?

Sick of these announcements by stealth.

Genuinely though we were going to get more transparency and openness from the UCI.

That's my understanding yes. I really don't like this new policy either.

Darkglasses

And sky have now terminated his contract, as expected.

Aoibheann

RobFowl wrote: »

Does that mean he was banned from 31/12/13 ?

Sick of these announcements by stealth.

Genuinely though we were going to get more transparency and openness from the UCI.

A backdated ban is pretty commonplace, particularly if the athlete hasn't been racing. To my knowledge, JTL hasn't raced since last September so this seems fairly reasonable going by historical bans across various sports, cycling included.

Nice to see this case finally have a conclusion all the same!

pelevin

Tobh I don't really care about the fanfare or lack of in announcing a rider's getting banned. What matters is the cyclist getting caught & punished, & it's not in the slightest as if the announcement will somehow go unnoticed.

Beasty

RobFowl wrote: »

Sick of these announcements by stealth.

Genuinely though we were going to get more transparency and openness from the UCI.

UCI announcement today

The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) confirms receipt of the United Kingdom National Anti-Doping Panel’s decision on the Jonathan Tiernan-Locke case. A 2-year ban was imposed on the rider as a result of his anti-doping rule violation based on his Athlete Biological Passport. He is declared ineligible until December 31, 2015 and disqualified from the 2012 Tour of Britain and the 2012 UCI Road World Championships, competitions during which abnormalities were clearly identified. The UCI recognises the work of UKAD in providing the rider with a fair and independent hearing. At this stage, with the relevant appeal windows open, the UCI will not make any further comment on the case.

It appears to me this has only come to light today because the UCI were quite correctly following due process. Can't see how anyone can criticise them for this

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

UCI announcement today
It appears to me this has only come to light today because the UCI were quite correctly following due process. Can't see how anyone can criticise them for this

no issue with due process, its the announcement of bans in an obscure part of the UCI website updates as and when they wish with no announcement.
The announcement above was issued after various journo's had noticed the ban on the PDF list ...

Beasty

That form states "Updated 17/07/14" - maybe they were simply making sure he was actually listed there before making their announcement - maybe their announcement was made simultaneously, or do you have information that this ban was actually confirmed earlier than today? Maybe it simply is the UCI are now properly following dus process - something that was sadly lacking in the past

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

That form states "Updated 17/07/14" - maybe they were simply making sure he was actually listed there before making their announcement - maybe their announcement was made simultaneously, or do you have information that this ban was actually confirmed earlier than today? Maybe it simply is the UCI are now properly following dus process - something that was sadly lacking in the past

Appears ban backdated but UCI and Sky not clarifying this.

This new policy of putting bans up on a PDF file on the UCI website with no notice or comment is really frustrating.
The comments in Menchov and JLT case only came after bans noted by journalists.
Really if due process was followed then they feel the ban will survive CAS.
The should be celebrating or at least publicising catching dopers!!!

Lumen

"Due process" or not, based on this history of the UCI and the sport the most obvious interpretation is that the UCI don't want press coverage of doping during the Tour.

Zzippy

Inquitus wrote: »

It relates entirely to before he joined Sky

Shakakan wrote: »

He appears to have doped before he joined Sky. They've highlighted that a lot.

Interesting tweets from Shane Stokes (@SSBike) this evening cast a new light on Sky's "transparency" and anti-doping stance:

Transparency? Dave Brailsford answering questions from journalists at team bus. Asked him one about Tiernan Locke doing training camps with... team months before he joined Sky. Was going to ask why it didn't do it's own blood tests prior to signing. DB walks off mid question and... straight onto team bus. Brilliant.

Questions about Tiernan Locke asked by French media from early 2012. Too easy to say 'we had no blood results to judge.' You have... him at your training camps? Test him then. Build up your own passport prior to signing him. Walking off mid question is miles away... from transparency and openness.

RobFowl

I had some doubts about this verdict but here is the UKADA report.

http://t.co/HiKAtRkJLY

I have absolutely no doubt at all now that he is guilty.......

(as well as being a complete f*cking idiot)