Where will Man Utd finish this season?

EuropeanSon

Godge wrote: »

Yaya Toure from Barcelona
Robinho from Real Madrid


It then depends on how you define a top player from a top club. Does Mertesacker from Werder Bremen count? Eden Hazard from Lille? Schurrle from Schalke?

If you want to argue it you should define what a top-player from a top-club means first as otherwise the argument will go back and forth. Do you say a multi-capped international coming from a club that regularly plays Champions League football?

If so do Aguero to Man City and Torres to Liverpool fit that definition?

Top club I guys I'd define as Real, Barca, Milan teams, Juve, Bayern. The teams who are both there or thereabouts in the Champions league, and at the top of the revenue lists. Not Athletico, certainly not Lille or Schalke.

Top player would mean a player who played a major part in their team in the previous year, and couldn't be judged to have been unsuccessful.

Toure doesn't really fit the bill IMO, as I wouldn't call him a key Barca player. Not does Robinho, though perhaps he should, I don't remember how big a player he was for Real.

EuropeanSon

8-10 wrote: »

Veron?? That wasn't within the last decade you know....

That's not really relevant to the point. Ten years ago or twelve (or however many it was, I'm on my phoneand can't be arsed searching it up), it doesn't matter. In fact, it strengthens the point, as it implies the event (top players from to clubs joining pl teams) is even rarer.

Rayne Wooney

This thread is a train wreck, surprised it's been kept open tbh.

People getting petty one ups be putting United 6th and lower in the league. Lol

We'll see at the end of the season.

Godge

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Top club I guys I'd define as Real, Barca, Milan teams, Juve, Bayern. The teams who are both there or thereabouts in the Champions league, and at the top of the revenue lists. Not Athletico, certainly not Lille or Schalke.

Top player would mean a player who played a major part in their team in the previous year, and couldn't be judged to have been unsuccessful.

Toure doesn't really fit the bill IMO, as I wouldn't call him a key Barca player. Not does Robinho, though perhaps he should, I don't remember how big a player he was for Real.

You are restricting the field to ten or twelve players a year. Some of those will be the same from year to year. Some of them are one-club players or are happy with their club. Realistically, apart from Ozil, which player was on the market this year that met that definition? None.

If you create a small enough field, one or two per year, then it is very easy to say that English teams don't sign "top" players from "top" clubs. If however, you create an objective definition, it is a different story.

8-10

EuropeanSon wrote: »

That's not really relevant to the point. Ten years ago or twelve (or however many it was, I'm on my phoneand can't be arsed searching it up), it doesn't matter. In fact, it strengthens the point, as it implies the event (top players from to clubs joining pl teams) is even rarer.

Just seemed like an obscure reference. Maybe I've just erased that transfer and that Lazio team from my memory!

EuropeanSon

Godge wrote: »

You are restricting the field to ten or twelve players a year. Some of those will be the same from year to year. Some of them are one-club players or are happy with their club. Realistically, apart from Ozil, which player was on the market this year that met that definition? None.

If you create a small enough field, one or two per year, then it is very easy to say that English teams don't sign "top" players from "top" clubs. If however, you create an objective definition, it is a different story.

I think you are completely missing the point.

The point was that it's not a reasonable criticism to make to say that Utd (for example) don't sign those types of players, when nobody really does except very rarely.

Godge

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I think you are completely missing the point.

The point was that it's not a reasonable criticism to make to say that Utd (for example) don't sign those types of players, when nobody really does except very rarely.

Yes, but the point I would make in response is that you can identify multi-capped players coming in from Champions League clubs to all of the top six, the likes of the transfers of Mertesacker, Ozil, Giroud, even Chamakh to Arsenal or Torres, Suarez, Coutinho to Liverpool etc. let alone what City and Chelsea have bought but apart from Kagawa from Dortmund, you have to go back to 2007/08 to find Hargreaves from Bayern as a multi-capped international from a Champions League club going to Utd.

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

This thread is a train wreck, surprised it's been kept open tbh.

People getting petty one ups be putting United 6th and lower in the league. Lol

We'll see at the end of the season.

It's not that bad of a train wreck. The vast majority of the posts make good points whether it be Utd to be fine this season after this stumble or Utd to have a mare of a season.

Jus ignore the ott posts.

Tbh, the biggest knee jerk posts I've read the past few days have been in the Utd superthread.

gandalf

Based on the first six matches I believe United will not finish in the top four this season. At the moment I think they are looking like a team that is going to end up at 6th or 7th.

It doesn't surprise given they have lost a behemoth of a motivator in Ferguson and the new manager has replaced the back-room staff. The team last year outperformed its net worth on paper to win the league so you can add to the mix a team that is in desperate need of investment which didn't happen in the summer because the scouting network and the manager seemed to have gotten their lines crossed. Now if Moyes and United get their act together in Jan and add some real quality then they could be back in with a shout but if they have the normal experience with RvP for example that us Arsenal fans did they could be without their top goal scorer for a number of matches.

Rayne Wooney

Based on the first 6 matches Southampton look likely to qualify for Europe.

Stupid thread.

Christmas is the perfect time for a thread like this if United are still in their current predicament, with half of games played.

super_furry

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

This thread is a train wreck, surprised it's been kept open tbh.

Just be thankful it's not a "Are United and Moyes done" thread.

EuropeanSon

Godge wrote: »

Yes, but the point I would make in response is that you can identify multi-capped players coming in from Champions League clubs to all of the top six, the likes of the transfers of Mertesacker, Ozil, Giroud, even Chamakh to Arsenal or Torres, Suarez, Coutinho to Liverpool etc. let alone what City and Chelsea have bought but apart from Kagawa from Dortmund, you have to go back to 2007/08 to find Hargreaves from Bayern as a multi-capped international from a Champions League club going to Utd.

Coutinho, Mertesacker, Giroud, Suarez, Chamakh, wouldn't strike me as being bigger than De Gea or Kagawa. I don't think that's a reasonable claim to make. They're also not at all in what I thought the spirit of the point was.

SirDelboy18

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Based on the first 6 matches Southampton look likely to qualify for Europe.

Stupid thread.

Christmas is the perfect time for a thread like this if United are still in their current predicament, with half of games played.

They have some brilliant players and a good manager actually, I'd be surprised if they didn't end up somewhere around 8th.

Iused2likebusts

I reckon if the board back moyes in January they should have just about enough quality to stay up:pac:.
In all seriousness though the league is great this year very unpredictable. My guess would be Utd will finish 3rd. If they get a bit of momentum the belief will come back and could easily string a load of back to back wins together and really challenge for the title( city and chelsea havent convinced either). The flip side there is a bit of fear among Utd fans for the first time in a long long time. A couple of more showings like last Sat and the panic that will ensue could see the unthinkable happen and Utd finish outside the top 4 not helped by the fact that the media seem to have it in for Moyes and want to create a crisis.

efb

Cheers lads this seems to be decent, a prediction is that, a prediction. You're not prediction much in March, I wish I had started it before the start of the season. 4th then was considered low now people see it as being reasonable.

Oranage2

Also it's worth noting that Moyes has always struggled in the Prem at the start when his team played in the cl.

764dak

EuropeanSon wrote: »

When has anyone in the league bought a top player from a top team outside the premier league? The only examples I can think of in the last decade are Veron (not quite a top team really), Balotelli, Shevchenko, and Ozil, and of those, only Ozil could be said to be in his prime.

Lazio finished first and second when Veron was there.

corcaigh07

Oranage2 wrote: »

Also it's worth noting that Moyes has always struggled in the Prem at the start when his team played in the cl.

What? Moyes has only been involved in a Pre-Group Stage fixture against Villarreal and the game with Utd against Leverkusen.

mike65

whooosh

Joke. jpg

mike65

The best summary of this subject is as follows - Utd will finish higher than any ABU wants and lower than any Utd supporter wants.

googled eyes

I think people are being a bit too generous.

Utd without Ferguson will find the season a lot harder. Whether you liked the man or not. He inspired the team to win many games that the maybe shouldn't have.

Moyes just hasn't got the same ability to inspire his team. Even if Moyes gets a player or two during the January window, it maybe be too late to push for Champions League.

I think they'll finish in around 5th-6th.

The_Kew_Tour

50 quid

I say we finish in Top 3.

First com first served.:)

DARK-KNIGHT

richierichballs wrote: »

1. City
2. Chelsea
3. Spurs
4. Arsenal
5. Liverpool
6. Everton
7. United

Ultimate facepalm to be inserted here

Maximus Alexander

Are those of you claiming United will finish outside the top four doing so with a straight face, or are you sniggering at yourself and rolling your own eyes to save me the effort?

This thread will be a hilarious quote mine come the end of the season.

DARK-KNIGHT

mike65 wrote: »

whooosh

The OP is an arsenal fan.. Why would he ask this about united and not arsenal? Oh yeah I see clearly now

rob316

I would be rightly shocked if they finished outside the top 4. They have 2 very good strikers in RVP and Rooney and some overrated but decent young players.

Oranage2

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

The OP is an arsenal fan.. Why would he ask this about united and not arsenal? Oh yeah I see clearly now

It's a big talking point one of the biggest clubs in England doing very poorly, I'm sure you were enquiring about the motives last season when people asked would Liverpool be relegated.

LuckyLloyd

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Based on the first 6 matches Southampton look likely to qualify for Europe.

Stupid thread.

Christmas is the perfect time for a thread like this if United are still in their current predicament, with half of games played.

The only way to control people's perceptions is through winning games. Have a bad six game stretch and people will talk negatively about your club - your own fans are doing lots of the doom mongering at present don't forget.

People will shut up when Utd get back to Ferguson type form. Until then you must endure.

michael999999

With evertons recent form, the question needs to be asked was it moyes holding everton back and not the other way around?

It should be a worry for utd fans!

shadowcomplex

mike65 wrote: »

The best summary of this subject is as follows - Utd will finish higher than any ABU wants and lower than any Utd supporter wants.

So somewhere between 1 and 20 then yea ?

Ordinary man

michael999999 wrote: »

With evertons recent form, the question needs to be asked was it moyes holding everton back and not the other way around?

It should be a worry for utd fans!

It was mentioned on the everton thread last night that they had a point more after 6 games last season. But don't let that get in the way of what you're trying to do;)

Green Giant

They'll probably still be in the top 3 come the season's end. Can see them getting into their stride and racking up a few good results on the trot. Also, Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool surely can't keep up their current pace for the whole season. No need for Man Utd to panic yet.

May I add, not a Man Utd supporter.

The_Kew_Tour

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

50 quid

I say we finish in Top 3.

First com first served.:)

Usually a good way to weed out the bullsh1ters and keyboard warriors

Quazzie

rarnes1 wrote: »

Usually a good way to weed out the bullsh1ters and keyboard warriors

By making a bet on an internet forum to hundreds of random strangers that he will never be held to stand over. :rolleyes:

kryogen

Really depends on how the team does with the fixture list I guess

If the cups fizzle out we finish at Southampton, assuming no games are re arranged

If we get to the FA cup final we could finish the season there

If we get to the CL final we will be finishing in Lisbon!

Oranage2

Quazzie wrote: »

By making a bet on an internet forum to hundreds of random strangers that he will never be held to stand over. :rolleyes:

Lol

googled eyes

Tis only a joke folks

RasTa

Quazzie wrote: »

By making a bet on an internet forum to hundreds of random strangers that he will never be held to stand over. :rolleyes:

Every bet I've placed on here has being paid in full.

Quazzie

Quazzie wrote: »

By making a bet on an internet forum to hundreds of random strangers that he will never be held to stand over. :rolleyes:

Plenty of bets made in here over the years and people pay up or pay a charity.

Am I missing something?

There's a few that are certain that Utd will finish outside top 3. Surely easy money?? If I was one I'd probably take that bet.


The internet, serious business.

Too Tough To Die

The amount of people predicting Liverpool to finish ahead of United on this thread. They're either on the wind up or just plain dumb.

Too Tough To Die

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

The amount of people predicting Liverpool to finish ahead of United on this thread. They're either on the wind up or just plain dumb.

I don't think it'll happen myself, not near it.

Surely though you can have an opinion without being called dumb or accused of being a WUM?

---

Utd will most likely finish lower than last season points wise and Liverpool should finish higher points wise.

However, imo there'll still be at least 10 points in the difference.

Samba

Team spirit and harmony is clearly lacking, RVPs body language in the last 2 games he played was very negative, he just doesn't look very happy, I thought it was very uncharacteristic of him when he got up in the refs face in the Bayer game.

Something is up at OT, I suspect the players are just as disillusioned with DM team sheets as the fans are, though that's just pure speculation, maybe they just don't have the same level of confidence in Moyes as they did in Fergie. If that's the case, it's going to seep through the team.

If things continue as they have started, then I don't think a UTD finish outside of the top 4 is as unrealistic as some people are making out.

As a United fan I'm worried, but I'm not panicking yet, it's still early doors and this season is looking like it could be exceptionally unpredictable.

Tough to say really, worst case scenario 6th place and best case scenario runners up.

A_Sober_Paddy

Top 4...top 3 depending on who they sign in January...all this spurs love is a bit much already, its very early, they've not challenged for a title in my lifetime. Also for arsenal, who've they beaten...spurs and teams who aren't going to be challenging, come back and make a prediction after 12-15 games re the north London clabs...but in saying that I'd love spurs to win it

Call Me Jimmy

I think if they finish outside the top four there will be a serious problem and fergie may be involved (not publicly) to help sort some things out. But I still don't think he will be sacked unless they are well outside the top four.

swimming in a sea

A bit of a stopped clock mentality about people posting the down fall of man utd, some year they will get it right and man utd will finish outside the top 3 for the first time in the premiership history.

Personally I think they will at least find one team to good to win the title but which one that is I'm not sure.

SlickRic

i can't see them outside the top 4.

there is too much quality and experience in the team. Moyes would have to completely destroy morale with ineptitude for that to just disappear.

Utd have had bad starts under Fergie post-93 (i'm not including his first 6 years, because he was rebuilding then, not in charge of a title-winning squad). the reason fewer worried is simply because Utd fans knew what he brought to the table. he was a trustworthy pair of hands, and fans knew it because they had experienced it.

IMO, the big issue Utd fans seem to have with Moyes, and it's valid until he proves otherwise, is that he is largely unknown - certainly in the scenario he now finds himself. they simply don't know what's coming. is he up to it? they just don't know. and Utd fans are used to knowing.

the transition from expectancy at Everton to expectancy at Utd has been tricky for him. i heard a great way of putting it the other day. at Everton, he could get away with being reactive in terms of his tactics. he wasn't at liberty to send a team out to always try and control a game. the difference now is that the expectancy at Utd dictates that the football must be somewhat proactive. he doesn't have the luxury of simply trying to counter another team's tactics. he doesn't have the luxury of that not working and being given the benefit of the doubt because it's "only Everton" and you're not expected to win every game.

all that being said, i'd be shocked if things didn't change soon. there are too many good players and if Utd aren't going out and winning games, you can be sure Fergie, Charlton et al will be quickly in his ear reminding him.

Backstreet Moyes

Lads in fairness he was pushing for Europe with a much worse team last year. At the moment he doesn't know his best team and seems to be being negative. I have no doubt once he settles in results will pick up hopefully it's sooner rather than later.

SantryRed

It's not the results that are disappointing, it's the manner of the losses. They don't look anything like they did under Ferguson last season. They were impressive against Swansea and that's it. Since then, they've been lacking in anything going forward in the Chelsea and Liverpool games, and were pretty poor against Palace, City and WBA. They were lucky to pick up the win against Palace, as they really didn't look like scoring, and were given a dodgy penalty.

I think the worrying aspect for United fans is the manner of the losses. There is a huge contrast between the way United lost the weekend and how City lost. City look like they are playing well but making errors, whilst United just look downright poor so far.

Blatter

rarnes1 wrote: »

Plenty of bets made in here over the years and people pay up or pay a charity.

The only welchers that I know of have been X in the City and Oranage2 (unless he's paid Pro. F by now)

Can't recall anyone else and I've seen a few. You should generally know who'd be too dodgy to have a wager with tbh. Most people are fine, easy enough to spot the others.