Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA?

The who

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Earth quakes are tragedies. Ships hitting ice bergs, or planes crashing are tragedies.

Detonating a car bomb in a shopping street full of people is an act of terrorism.

So what do you call the people that came over here, took our land and drove us off it, murdered us and discriminated against us?And when we retaliate they call us terrorists, murderers and thieves...

SoulandForm

The who wrote: »

So I take it that the Brits are muderous thugs aswell?

Oh a lot of them were- so were a lot of Provos though.

It was a very nasty situation that should not have been allowed to happen or continue on for as long as it did.

The Provos have their share of blame but so do the British government and so does Unionism.

The problem is that usually you point out the faults of the Brits and Unionists and you agree automatically with the Warrington bombing in a lot of people's minds, you point out the faults of the Provos to other people and you are automatically pro-British all the way.

The thing is though that the Provos at the moment want peace. Why that isnt enough for some people given how no one comes out of the Troubles looking well is beyond me.

tdv123

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So I take it you were ok with the supposed shoot to kill policy and agree the SAS were right to kill the active service unit in Gibralter?

I wouldn't have had a problem with it if the British side acknowledged that they were in fact involved in a guerrilla war. Claiming not to be in a war & then committing acts of war & not giving your enemy full POW status is hypocritical. Other than that point no, any killing of combatants on either side is fair game.

Also the hypocrisies of the British media in these types of situations was sickening. They tried to paint the provies as evil barbaric monsters when they carried out a successful ambush yet they were having orgasms over Loughgall (in which they killed a civilian as well which could have been avoided had they set-up a simple roadblock) & other SAS successful ambushes.

The who

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So how would you describe people who carry out an attack?

Also, why did they not bomb this strategically important building at 4am?

While your at it, would you mind answering my earlier question, how would you describe an "army" that detonates a bomb outside McDonalds in a busy high street on a Saturday lunch time?

Well thats how you make an impact.The IRA had to carry out such terrible tasks to get the job done.How could the IRA do anything better anyway? Sure wasn't that the way we got the 26? Michael Collins is praised like a God for achieving the independant 26 and thats how he went about to get it. How do you describe an army with full training and unlimited weapons and supplies that shoots dead innocent, unarmed, peacefull protesters during a peaceful protest?

joe swanson

No difference at all. All murderous filthy thugs with no respect for life.

......Awaits apologists and yes, i condemn all murder for those whatabouterers.

tdv123

joe swanson wrote: »

No difference at all. All murderous filthy thugs with no respect for life.

......Awaits apologists and yes, i condemn all murder for those whatabouterers.

Your talking about the R IRA & C IRA or other organizations? If so I agree, the R & C IRA don't have a mandate from anyone unlike the provies or the oldies who had every right to put up armed resistance.

The who

oscarBravo wrote: »

It is literally beyond my comprehension how anyone can be so hopelessly blinded by their ideology that they can believe something as delusional as this.

Parking a car packed with explosives on a busy shopping street isn't an "accident" and it isn't a "mistake". It's mass murder.

Ask yourself this: if it was carried out by someone whose politics you disagreed with, would you still describe it as an "accident" and a "mistake"?

Obviously not? War is murder what ever way you look at it. But the only thing is, they don't belong here and the vast majority of us don't want them here and they will kill to stay here. What I call murder is when a fully trained army with limitless ammunition and supplies kill innocent, unarmed, peacefull civilians during a peaceful protest. I also am against all sectarian attacks (that is also murder).

Godge

The who wrote: »

Well thats how you make an impact.The IRA had to carry out such terrible tasks to get the job done.How could the IRA do anything better anyway? Sure wasn't that the way we got the 26? Michael Collins is praised like a God for achieving the independant 26 and thats how he went about to get it. How do you describe an army with full training and unlimited weapons and supplies that shoots dead innocent, unarmed, peacefull protesters during a peaceful protest?

No they didn't.

Violence was wrong then and it is wrong now.

The IRA are a bunch or murdering thugs (and they haven't gone away you know as a business friend of mine was helpfully reminded recently.

SoulandForm

Godge wrote: »

No they didn't.

Violence was wrong then and it is wrong now.

The IRA are a bunch or murdering thugs (and they haven't gone away you know as a business friend of mine was helpfully reminded recently.

Violence can seem the only answer to the oppressed- the real solution is genuine democracy, giving a real say to the masses of the people of Ireland and real involvement in both politics and the economy.

tdv123

Godge wrote: »

No they didn't.

Violence was wrong then and it is wrong now.

The IRA are a bunch or murdering thugs (and they haven't gone away you know as a business friend of mine was helpfully reminded recently.

So your saying all violence at any point in time carried out by anybody is wrong. That's fine but don't try to heap all the blame on the IRA, they didn't invent violence you know.

Crooked Jack

Godge wrote: »

No they didn't.

Violence was wrong then and it is wrong now.

The IRA are a bunch or murdering thugs (and they haven't gone away you know as a business friend of mine was helpfully reminded recently.

I dont know who "reminded" him, but it sure as hell wasnt the IRA.

Zirconia

" Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA? "

Well of course! One is a group of scumbags, whereas the other is a bunch or arseholes, or maybe it's the other way around?

tdv123

Zirconia wrote: »

" Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA? "

Well of course! One is a group of scumbags, whereas the other is a bunch or arseholes, or maybe it's the other way around?

Thanks for your helpful input. You must be a debating champion.

joe swanson

tdv123 wrote: »

Thanks for your helpful input. You must be a debating champion.

He answered the question and he was right. Nothing wrong with that.

tdv123

SoulandForm wrote: »

Violence can seem the only answer to the oppressed- the real solution is genuine democracy, giving a real say to the masses of the people of Ireland and real involvement in both politics and the economy.

Exactly even Tony Benn who was head of the "Stop the War Coalition" in Britain defended the provos right to armed resistance.

tdv123

joe swanson wrote: »

He answered the question and he was right. Nothing wrong with that.

One liners offer nothing to any thread. Yes he answered the question but it's not a pub quiz. You still haven't conveniently replied to me yet I see.

Howard Juneau

The who wrote: »

I was wondering what was the difference between the two but I do the C.I.R.A split from the provo's in the eighties and the R.I.R.A split after the ceasefire in 1996. Also did they join up?
Any one who is against the IRA and the things they have done can **** off i'm fed up with yas

Obviously never had a family member killed by them. Jean McConvilles family would disagree with you

SoulandForm

tdv123 wrote: »

Exactly even Tony Benn who was head of the "Stop the War Coalition" in Britain defended the provos right to armed resistance.

I can think of really good arguments defending the CIRA and RIRA but Northern Ireland/the six counties/whatever you want to call is a very complex and messed up place. In many ways I hate it but I still care about it deeply. Possibly they have a right to armed resistance but that doesnt make it wise. The only way though to really remove violence is to remove the roots of it.

joe swanson

tdv123 wrote: »

One liners offer nothing to any thread. Yes he answered the question but it's not a pub quiz. You still haven't conveniently replied to me yet I see.

The provos were also thugs. Question answered. Anyone no matter wat side who kills innocents is a filthy thug

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Obviously never had a family member killed by them. Jean McConvilles family would disagree with you

My dad was killed by the Provos and it really sickens me the way people like you drag up other people's tragedies to score nice political points.

By the way one of her sons was imprisoned later as an INLA Volunteer.

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

My dad was killed by the Provos and it really sickens me the way people like you drag up other people's tragedies to score nice political points.

By the way one of her sons was imprisoned later as an INLA Volunteer.

You're the one bringing your personal life into it, not me.

tdv123

joe swanson wrote: »

The provos were also thugs. Question answered. Anyone no matter wat side who kills innocents is a filthy thug

You can call them what you want but they had every right to put up armed resistance. The nationalists communities where under-attack from the BA & the UVF and the Provos defended the people of those communities from state & sectarian violence.

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

You're the one bringing your personal life into it, not me.

Yes I am but the troubles and the north directly effects me.

When you bring up nasty things the Provos have done you are bringing people's personal lives into it. You are turning it from a political debate into a matter of sentimentality or trying to do.

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Obviously never had a family member killed by them. Jean McConvilles family would disagree with you

That still wouldn't change my opinion of the right of an oppressed people to fight back against a tyrant.

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

You're the one bringing your personal life into it, not me.

You brought up the Mc Convilles- the fact that some her children went on to work and fight for the INLA tells a different story than the one you would want told by bringing that up.

joe swanson

tdv123 wrote: »

You can call them what you want but they had every right to put up armed resistance. The nationalists communities where under-attack from the BA & the UVF and the Provos defended the people of those communities from state & sectarian violence.

So in light of that statement, please justify the kingsmill massacre?

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Obviously never had a family member killed by them. Jean McConvilles family would disagree with you

You are bringing up personal circumstances there.

deadeye187

one has REAL before IRA and the other has CONTINUITY before IRA

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I am but the troubles and the north directly effects me.

When you bring up nasty things the Provos have done you are bringing people's personal lives into it. You are turning it from a political debate into a matter of sentimentality or trying to do.

But isn't that what you do? You hide behind sweeping generalisations, use all the buzz words, but cry foul when an actual human being who was murdered is put before you as it is no longer an intangible.
Removing the root cause indeed.

SoulandForm

joe swanson wrote: »

So in light of that statement, please justify the kingsmill massacre?

He said clearly on this thread that he doesnt.

Howard Juneau

tdv123 wrote: »

That still wouldn't change my opinion of the right of an oppressed people to fight back against a tyrant.

I don't believe Jean McConville was a tyrant?

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

You brought up the Mc Convilles- the fact that some her children went on to work and fight for the INLA tells a different story than the one you would want told by bringing that up.

One of her son's was involved with the ira, at the time, doesn't make her death any less horrific.

joe swanson

SoulandForm wrote: »

He said clearly on this thread that he doesnt.

Im sure he can answer himself........ . The question was completely justifiable consideribg the statement made by him.

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

But isn't that what you do? You hide behind sweeping generalisations, use all the buzz words, but cry foul when an actual human being who was murdered is put before you as it is no longer an intangible.
Removing the root cause indeed.

No I dont- I have made clear my extreme unease with the Provisional's campaign. However I realize that it didnt drop out of the sky. I fully realize what the Unionist community went through during the troubles. The fact is though that the killing and the driving people to kill wasnt all one sided. I know a lot more about the actual human beings killed by the IRA than you do.

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I am but the troubles and the north directly effects me.

When you bring up nasty things the Provos have done you are bringing people's personal lives into it. You are turning it from a political debate into a matter of sentimentality or trying to do.

Murder by provos has nothing to do with political debate.

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

No I dont- I have made clear my extreme unease with the Provisional's campaign. However I realize that it didnt drop out of the sky. I fully realize what the Unionist community went through during the troubles. The fact is though that the killing and the driving people to kill wasnt all one sided. I know a lot more about the actual human beings killed by the IRA than you do.

You have absolutely no idea what I have or have not experienced in my life

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

One of her son's was involved with the ira, at the time, doesn't make her death any less horrific.

One of her sons was in the Official IRA, two later were involved the INLA who if anything were more brutal than the Provos.

Why pick of this killing and not say Juile Livingstone?

tdv123

SoulandForm wrote: »

I can think of really good arguments defending the CIRA and RIRA but Northern Ireland/the six counties/whatever you want to call is a very complex and messed up place. In many ways I hate it but I still care about it deeply. Possibly they have a right to armed resistance but that doesnt make it wise. The only way though to really remove violence is to remove the roots of it.

I can't defend the CIRA & RIRA. The people of the island made it very clear that they wanted an end to violence & for parties involved to pursue their respective goals by political means only. CIRA, RIRA & other similar groups are going against the will of the people. And it's also pretty clear that no more can be achieved through violence, so the violence is just pointless & won't lead anywhere.

The situation was different for the Provos, people who joined them where just ordinary people who were disgusted by the injustices & brutality of the state against normal people. They fought on behalf of the people & the people wanted them to fight. The provos have brought around a situation where nationalist aspirations can now realistically be met through the ballot box alone so there is no need for the gun any longer, that situation did not exist in 1970.

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Murder by provos has nothing to do with political debate.

Yes it does- the troubles came out of political problems and political evils. They would still be going on if more people had your attitude.

joe swanson

tdv123 wrote: »

I can't defend the CIRA & RIRA. The people of the island made it very clear that they wanted an end to violence for parties involved to pursue their respective goals. CIRA, RIRA & other similar groups are going against the will of the people. And it's also pretty clear that no more can be achieved through violence, so the violence is just pointless & won't lead anywhere.


The situation was different for the Provos, people who joined them where just ordinary people who were disgusted by the injustices & brutality of the state against normal people. They fought on behalf of the people & the people wanted them to fight. The provos have brought around a situation where nationalist aspirations can now realistically be met through the ballot box alone so there is no need for the gun any longer, that situation did not exist in 1970.

Dont wanna answer the question?

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

One of her sons was in the Official IRA, two later were involved the INLA who if anything were more brutal than the Provos.

Why pick of this killing and not say Juile Livingstone?

She was an innocent victim. No child should ever die in this way.
But she wasn't dragged out, tortured & then executed

SoulandForm

joe swanson wrote: »

Dont wanna answer the question?

Jean Mc Conville was an informer who was killed and her body hidden because of the strength of the Officials in Divis.

She was actively involved in the pro-British in the troubles.

Far more innocent people died.

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes it does- the troubles came out of political problems and political evils. They would still be going on if more people had your attitude.

Really? Because I abhor all violence & feel it has no place in a civilised world?

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

Jean Mc Conville was an informer who was killed and her body hidden because of the strength of the Officials in Divis.

She was actively involved in the pro-British in the troubles.

Far more innocent people died.

And we both know that is a lie

tdv123

joe swanson wrote: »

So in light of that statement, please justify the kingsmill massacre?

I said I supported their right to armed resistance. I didn't say I supported every single action carried out by them. Just like I would have supported the allies in WWII but wouldn't have agreed with them dropping a bomb that killed 50,000 civilians.

Besides Kingsmills was carried out by independent members of the PIRA & INLA, it wasn't sanctioned by eithers army council.

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

She was an innocent victim. No child should ever die in this way.
But she wasn't dragged out, tortured & then executed

What about the torture in Castlereagh? Or how the Shankhill butchers were let run loose?

No one come out of the Troubles smelling of roses- why do you pick on side?

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

And we both know that is a lie

No we dont- I trust Brendan Hughes' account.

joe swanson

SoulandForm wrote: »

Jean Mc Conville was an informer who was killed and her body hidden because of the strength of the Officials in Divis.

She was actively involved in the pro-British in the troubles.

Far more innocent people died.

I meant my question to tdv re kinsmill in light pf his earlier statement.

+its disgusting to even attempt to justify the death of jean mcconville

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Really? Because I abhor all violence & feel it has no place in a civilised world?

Northern Ireland isnt civilized if that word is to mean any good and it certainly wasnt back than.

Do you abhor British and American Imperialism too???

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

What about the torture in Castlereagh? Or how the Shankhill butchers were let run loose?

No one come out of the Troubles smelling of roses- why do you pick on side?

I abhor all violence. Murder is murder, that is undeniable.
The Shankhill butchers never claimed to kill anyone in my name though