Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA?

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

I don't believe Jean McConville was a tyrant?

She was an informer, she was giving information to the tyrant. And don't call it a lie, her family were Republicans it would make no sense to kill her if she was a civilian which she clearly was not.

joe swanson

SoulandForm wrote: »

Northern Ireland isnt civilized if that word is to mean any good and it certainly wasnt back than.

Do you abhor British and American Imperialism too???

If all else fails, resort to whataboutery....

Scofflaw

Well, this thread is a nicely bubbling pot of mudslinging and rehashing old positions and accusations. Don't try to refight the Troubles in the forum, please.

The who in particular, tone it down, or you'll get a ban fairly soon. If you're "sick and tired" of people who dislike the IRA, a political discussion forum is not the place to be.

moderately,
Scofflaw

SoulandForm

joe swanson wrote: »

I meant my question to tdv re kinsmill in light pf his earlier statement.

+its disgusting to even attempt to justify the death of jean mcconville

Plenty of innocent people were slaughtered.

I wouldnt include my dad in that in that as an RUC officer he was actively in the troubles. So was she.

If you got involved you knew the risks- and that goes for PIRA members killed by the SAS. Mairead Farrell knew what she getting involved and knew the risks- she wasnt an innocent.

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

I abhor all violence. Murder is murder, that is undeniable.
The Shankhill butchers never claimed to kill anyone in my name though

Ah yeah sure if people are not killing in your name it's grand. It's only when killing is done your name that it's bad.

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

Northern Ireland isnt civilized if that word is to mean any good and it certainly wasnt back than.

Do you abhor British and American Imperialism too???

No, it is civilised, it's certain sections of the country who are not.
I won't call a whole country uncivilized because of the actions of a minority

joe swanson

tdv123 wrote: »

She was an informer, she was giving information to the tyrant. And don't call it a lie, her family were Republicans it would make no sense to kill her if she was a civilian which she clearly was not.

Still not want to answer my earlier question.?
ps trying to justify the murder of jean mcconnville says more about you than it does about her.

tdv123

joe swanson wrote: »

Dont wanna answer the question?

What question?

Howard Juneau

tdv123 wrote: »

Ah yeah sure if people are not killing in your name it's grand. It's only when killing is done your name that it's bad.

If you say so, I don't agree with your thinking though

tdv123

joe swanson wrote: »

Still not want to answer my earlier question.?
ps trying to justify the murder of jean mcconnville says more about you than it does about her.

I'm not trying to justify any killings, but I did explain why she was killed.

joe swanson

tdv123 wrote: »

What question?

If the ira protected people ffrom sectarianism, justify kingsmill?

SoulandForm

tdv123 wrote: »

I'm not trying to justify any killings, but I did explain why she was killed.

Honestly I can understand fleggers much more easily than I can Free State militant anti-Republicans. I put their rabidness down to hatred of PSF's social democratic politics or a guilty conscience over the north- its probably a mixture of the two.

SoulandForm

joe swanson wrote: »

If the ira protected people ffrom sectarianism, justify kingsmill?

He probably wasnt born than- asking him to justify it is like me asking you to justify the "famine".

joe swanson

SoulandForm wrote: »

He probably wasnt born than- asking him to justify it is like me asking you to justify the "famine".

Fail

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

No we dont- I trust Brendan Hughes' account.

Nobody else does.
She was murdered, body hidden, her good name destroyed & still they lie

tdv123

Just to be clear I abhorred all violence. A passive resistance or civil rights approach would have been much more preferable. But that was just not possible, those routes were blocked of at that moment in time, unfortunately violence was inevitable. And who ever gets involved on either side knows the risk their taking Ruc, Brit,Loyalist or Provo - all of them know death is very possible & none of them were forced to enter the conflict.

SoulandForm

joe swanson wrote: »

Fail

Hardly- you support British Imperialism therefore you justify anything and everything they have done. That is your logic.

Howard Juneau

tdv123 wrote: »

She was an informer, she was giving information to the tyrant. And don't call it a lie, her family were Republicans it would make no sense to kill her if she was a civilian which she clearly was not.

You still persist with falsehoods, shame on you

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Nobody else does.
She was murdered, body hidden, her good name destroyed & still they lie

Do you also believe the story that she was killed for going to the aid of a British soldier that was in the media at the time and afterwards proven a total lie?

tdv123

joe swanson wrote: »

If the ira protected people ffrom sectarianism, justify kingsmill?

I already addressed that on page24 first post.

joe swanson

SoulandForm wrote: »

Hardly- you support British Imperialism therefore you justify anything and everything they have done. That is your logic.

Where have i said that?

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

Do you also believe the story that she was killed for going to the aid of a British soldier that was in the media at the time and afterwards proven a total lie?

No, sure didn't she run off with a British soldier & leave her kids behind.

SoulandForm

joe swanson wrote: »

Where have i said that?

Your whole story of the Provos just being psychopaths murdering for kicks says it.

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Nobody else does.

I do. You can call Brendan Hughes what ever you want one thing the man wasn't was a liar. Probably the most honest from the conflict I've heard speak.

Howard Juneau

tdv123 wrote: »

I do. You can call Brendan Hughes what ever you want one thing the man wasn't was a liar. Probably the most honest from the conflict I've heard speak.

He was a liar, McConville was tortured & murdered on the whim of evildoers

joe swanson

SoulandForm wrote: »

Your whole story of the Provos just being psychopaths murdering for kicks says it.

I consider myself a constitutional republican. Just because someone dcoes not agree with cold blooed murder of innocents does not make one pro british. Anyway im out. Bed

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

He was a liar, McConville was tortured & murdered on the whim of evildoers

But when he says Gerry Adams was involved do you think he was telling the truth?

Why would lie about this in particular and not other things which showed him in a bad light?

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

You still persist with falsehoods, shame on you

Nothing false about it mate, that's what all the evidence would suggest, your the one coming out with the more radical alternative to the most probable answer which is she was just your average informer. Your just blinded by your hatred for Republicanism.

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

He was a liar, McConville was tortured & murdered on the whim of evildoers

Again with the drama. She wasn't tortured she was shot once in the head, end of.

Howard Juneau

SoulandForm wrote: »

But when he says Gerry Adams was involved do you think he was telling the truth?

Why would lie about this in particular and not other things which showed him in a bad light?

The story was that Adams gave the order to kill her. I don't believe it.
Hughes was an evil psychopath who was looking to go out with a bang.
Pity he didn't make these claims to the press while he was still alive & could be questioned on his Bs

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

No, sure didn't she run off with a British soldier & leave her kids behind.

No, that's just a lie.

Howard Juneau

tdv123 wrote: »

Again with the drama. She wasn't tortured she was shot once in the head, end of.

She was tortured, that is undeniable.

Howard Juneau

tdv123 wrote: »

No, that's just a lie.

One of many that was spread by her killers

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

The story was that Adams gave the order to kill her. I don't believe it.
Hughes was an evil psychopath who was looking to go out with a bang.
Pity he didn't make these claims to the press while he was still alive & could be questioned on his Bs

He wasnt though, very easy to judge from your safety in the south.

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

The story was that Adams gave the order to kill her. I don't believe it.
Hughes was an evil psychopath who was looking to go out with a bang.
Pity he didn't make these claims to the press while he was still alive & could be questioned on his Bs

Attacking a dead persons personality traits, nice. He was not an evil psychopath that's just your radical imagination again. And he gave plenty of interviews for media after the 1994 ceasefire he where explains quit a number of things about unclear events.

Howard Juneau

tdv123 wrote: »

Nothing false about it mate, that's what all the evidence would suggest, your the one coming out with the more radical alternative to the most probable answer which is she was just your average informer. Your just blinded by your hatred for Republicanism.

It's a complete & utter lie.
Not even any room for doubt. She was taken out, tortured & executed.
All the rubbish you spout just shows how blind you are to the truth

Howard Juneau

Nite all, will let you defame a murdered woman to your hearts content

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

One of many that was spread by her killers

So your admitting you told a lie & that you were one of her killers. Maybe you should hand yourself into a police station.

SoulandForm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Nite all, will let you defame a murdered woman to your hearts content

How is it defaming? Saying someone was actively on the pro-Union is not defaming them necessarily.

Or do you think it is? Were all BA soldiers and RUC men evil in your eyes?

tdv123

Howard Juneau wrote: »

It's a complete & utter lie.
Not even any room for doubt. She was taken out, tortured & executed.
All the rubbish you spout just shows how blind you are to the truth

Your just looking for things that never happened to happen. I'm trying to balance out the lie that the provos were just murdering psychos. If they were just murdering nutcases with no political aspirations why bother giving out warnings berfore setting off a bomb, surely if you were a murdering psycho you'd want to kill as many possible?

To be honest mate your view is a very outdated stale freestater one that does not hold up to the evidence that is on the table.

SoulandForm

tdv123 wrote: »

Your just looking for things that never happened to happen. I'm trying to balance out the lie that the provos were just murdering psychos. If they were just murdering nutcases with no political aspirations why bother giving out warnings berfore setting off a bomb, surely if you were a murdering psycho you'd want to kill as many possible?

To be honest mate your view is a very outdated stale freestater one that does not hold up to the evidence that is on the table.

If the PIRA were as evil as he says they are how is it defaming someone to say that they informed on them?

tdv123

SoulandForm wrote: »

If the PIRA were as evil as he says they are how is it defaming someone to say that they informed on them?

He has the blinders on.

Of course if his beloved Free State government had actually taken some action instead of cowardliness pleas for the British to act during the 69 pogroms there would have been no rise of the Provisional's.

SoulandForm

tdv123 wrote: »

He has the blinders on.

Of course if his beloved Free State government had actually taken some action instead of cowardliness pleas for the British to act during the 69 pogroms there would have been no rise of the Provisional's.

Its more than a decade since the PIRA final cease fire. Sinn Fein are now trying to assure stability in Northern Ireland. Why the one sided obessesion?

tdv123

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its more than a decade since the PIRA final cease fire. Sinn Fein are now trying to assure stability in Northern Ireland. Why the one sided obessesion?

I have a theory that people who try to paint the IRA as psychos who just love to kill people are well off people who love Capitalism & dislike the more fair & balanced ideas of Irish Republicanism so they try to paint the whole movement as some sort of evil conspiracy that's just out for themselves, which could not be further from the truth. Just a theory.

SoulandForm

tdv123 wrote: »

I have a theory that people who try to paint the IRA as psychos who just love to kill people are well off people who love Capitalism & dislike the more fair & balanced ideas of Irish Republicanism so they try to paint the whole movement as some sort of evil conspiracy that's just out for themselves, which could not be further from the truth. Just a theory.

This is the thing according to the most recent statistics those from a Roman Catholic background are 50 per cent more likely to out of work than those from a Protestant background, this explains the fleggers rage- they have very little, the worst housing the UK, serious unemployment, lots of terrible social BUT they have they little advantage and they will cling to it what ever comes. If you could have full employment and decent facilites things would change radically overnight. The north remains a mess in terms of basic social justice and civil liberties sadly.

Painted Pony

SoulandForm wrote: »

Honestly I can understand fleggers much more easily than I can Free State militant anti-Republicans. I put their rabidness down to hatred of PSF's social democratic politics or a guilty conscience over the north- its probably a mixture of the two.

Well perhaps a short refresher of what PIRA were about about will help you understand?

Contrary to the lie that is continually propagated, they were NOT all about a defense militia for oppressed Catholics. I have heard no reasonable person object to anything they did in this regard. The British state failed in its first duty to protect its citizens / subjects and those it failed needed no wider mandate to justify defending themselves.

However just because some acting for the catholic community were entitled to do something it does mean they were entitled to do anything. And waging a military campaign to end British rule in Ireland was most certainly something they were not entitled to do when the vast, vast majority of Irish people did not agree with this means of achieving such an end.

But of course the lie will continue, which is perhaps none too surprising. Of course it is possible that some actually believe and take comfort in this lie. After all, their are many similarly myopic unionists who insist the RUC were nothing but an exemplary police force, and across the pond, there are plenty who insist that the various US interventions around the world are all about bringing freedom. Republicanism is no more a propaganda free zone than anywhere else!

But back to the IRA and their mindset. Essentially what they did was decree that the Irish were not enlightened / informed / intelligent enough to decide what was best for their country so and it was best for us lesser republicans not to be bother our muddled little head with such matters and leave them to our betters. The most bombastic and chauvinistic old empirical colonel would not have such a condescending stance!

And they threw out charming little phrases like “puppet” government (don’t you like to roll this one out?) and even at one point took to declaring themselves to be the legitimate government and army of Ireland!

Any you are scratching your head and wondering what’s there not to love for Southerners here!!! And with a nice touch or irony you even suggest it might be a distaste for democratic policies!!

The real mystery is that there are people like yourself who genuinely do not understand how outraged, even leaving aside all of the horrors of violence, many Irish people were at this arrogance. Especially so as many who defend PIRA will now make exactly the same “no mandate” argument in rejecting the stances of CIRA and RIRA.

.jacksparrow.

Painted Pony wrote: »

Well perhaps a short refresher of what PIRA were about about will help you understand?

Contrary to the lie that is continually propagated, they were NOT all about a defense militia for oppressed Catholics. I have heard no reasonable person object to anything they did in this regard. The British state failed in its first duty to protect its citizens / subjects and those it failed needed no wider mandate to justify defending themselves.

However just because some acting for the catholic community were entitled to do something it does mean they were entitled to do anything. And waging a military campaign to end British rule in Ireland was most certainly something they were not entitled to do when the vast, vast majority of Irish people did not agree with this means of achieving such an end.

But of course the lie will continue, which is perhaps none too surprising. Of course it is possible that some actually believe and take comfort in this lie. After all, their are many similarly myopic unionists who insist the RUC were nothing but an exemplary police force, and across the pond, there are plenty who insist that the various US interventions around the world are all about bringing freedom. Republicanism is no more a propaganda free zone than anywhere else!

But back to the IRA and their mindset. Essentially what they did was decree that the Irish were not enlightened / informed / intelligent enough to decide what was best for their country so and it was best for us lesser republicans not to be bother our muddled little head with such matters and leave them to our betters. The most bombastic and chauvinistic old empirical colonel would not have such a condescending stance!

And they threw out charming little phrases like “puppet” government (don’t you like to roll this one out?) and even at one point took to declaring themselves to be the legitimate government and army of Ireland!

Any you are scratching your head and wondering what’s there not to love for Southerners here!!! And with a nice touch or irony you even suggest it might be a distaste for democratic policies!!

The real mystery is that there are people like yourself who genuinely do not understand how outraged, even leaving aside all of the horrors of violence, many Irish people were at this arrogance. Especially so as many who defend PIRA will now make exactly the same “no mandate” argument in rejecting the stances of CIRA and RIRA.

I think puppet government is pretty much spot on to describe the present and past governments.

SoulandForm

Painted Pony wrote: »

Contrary to the lie that is continually propagated, they were NOT all about a defense militia for oppressed Catholics. I have heard no reasonable person object to anything they did in this regard. The British state failed in its first duty to protect its citizens / subjects and those it failed needed no wider mandate to justify defending themselves.

And they threw out charming little phrases like “puppet” government (don’t you like to roll this one out?) and even at one point took to declaring themselves to be the legitimate government and army of Ireland!

Look firstly the Provisionals did terrible things that cannot be excused and that I dont deny- in one case in the mid-70s the broke into a house and shot a six year girl at point blank range for instance. Secondly yes primarily they were not a defense militia and never claimed to be that- they claimed to be fighting to remove the occupation though at some point in the mid 80s they ceased to be about national liberation and became about "armed reformism"- however a large part of the CNR population believed that it would not be safe while the union remained which is why you have now former hardened Republicans willing to give the status quo a chance. My point is- that yes the Provos were brutal and often immoral but they were not acting in isolation and to single them out in particular while ignoring the other factors in the conflict is immature.

And yes the southern government is most definitely a puppet of multinational companies, Brussels, the Americans and anyone else powerful who comes along- they have no shame, none at all.

SoulandForm

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I think puppet government is pretty much spot on to describe the present and past governments.

Giving away our natural gas resources to Shell and our fishing resources to Brussels are two major examples of this.

Godge

SoulandForm wrote: »

Giving away our natural gas resources to Shell and our fishing resources to Brussels are two major examples of this.

wow, bringing those two off-topic lies into a thread full of lies about the innocent IRA with even the hint of a tiny bit of relevance is some achievement.