Should false accusations of rape carry tougher sentences?

April O Neill

anncoates wrote: »

Seeing as you appear to have a habit (at least in your dealings with me) of posting idiot smilies in lieu of expressing an opinion, I might well have ignored it anyway.

A quick search through my posting history would show that that's not the case, I have expressed many an opinion. I don't expect anyone to bother to look through my posting history. But if they don't, then they are in no position to comment on the content contained within.

johnnyskeleton

tritium wrote: »

I'll have to look for the statistics later but I have a recollection of a US study that showed male on male prison rape to be a massive issue in terms of numbers. Not sure if any similar study has ever been done for Ireland or the UK

The rate of sexual victimisation on US prisoners in 2011-2012 is around 4%:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri1112.pdf

Compare this to the rate of sexual victimisation of female college students which was estimated in one report as 15% during college and 35% prior to college:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

Note these are for all sexual assaults and rape would be a smaller fraction of that figure.

I don't think any similar studies have taken place in Ireland, but we have a very good system of reporting so any such incidents (and no one is saying that it doesn't happen) and we also segregate sex offenders and violent prisoners.

So in the US, the rate is less than 4% and it is probably even less still in Ireland.

The idea that rape is commonplace in prisons is another rape myth, much like the perception of stranger rape being common (again, in the U.K. 66-78% of rape/sexual assault cases the assailant is known to the complainant, I've seen figures as close as 95%):

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

anncoates

April O Neill wrote: »

A quick search through my posting history would show that that's not the case, I have expressed many an opinion. I don't expect anyone to bother to look through my posting history. But if they don't, then they are in no position to comment on the content contained within.

OK.

Give me some time and I'll work on a reply over lunch to address all the substantive issues re: rape and jurisprudence that you raised in this post:

April O Neill wrote: »

johnnyskeleton

Lux23 wrote: »

How do you prove a false accusation though? What if it was a rape but there wasn't enough proof?

Several ways:

1. An admission by the complainant;
2. CCTV;
3. DNA samples not matching (rare);
4. Airtight alibi;
5. Evidence of ulterior motive i.e. blackmail, desire to ruin a reputation etc

Here's one of the few cases that have actually been prosecuted:

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/news/false-rape-allegation-has-made-it-difficult-for-genuine-complainants-judge-27556519.html

The court heard that [G], who was out celebrating her 22nd birthday, claimed she was raped in the toilets of... Nightclub but CCTV footage had shown she had never entered the ladies and that in total she had only spent just over 11 minutes on the premises before going outside and telling her friends in a nearby pub that she had been attacked.
.indo_survey>.wrap{position:inherit; background:#FFFFFF; display:block;}
She then presented herself at Sligo Garda Station to make a complaint of rape. The defendant told the court yesterday evening (Tuesday) that she accepted she hadn’t been in the toilets at the nightclub but she stated that “something had happened her that night.”

...

Garda Lanigan said CCTV footage obtained from the nightclub differed to the version of events given to Gardai and the video was shown to [G] on December 7th 2005.
.indo_survey>.wrap{position:inherit; background:#FFFFFF; display:block;}
The defendant was asked for her comment and she replied,’why would I make something like that up?’

...

In her statement made to Garda Kavanagh in Tallaght, [G] said she thought she would have got free entry into the nightclub as it was her birthday but the lady on the desk said this would only apply if it had been her 21st.
[G] said she went to the toilet immediately after entering the nightclub. As she went to close the cubicle door it was pushed in behind her by a man.
.indo_survey>.wrap{position:inherit; background:#FFFFFF; display:block;}He pushed her towards the toilet and blocked the door. He pulled up her dress and took down her pants before raping her.

Garda Lanigan said the description of the attacker was vague. He had fair hair, had a baby face and wore blue jeans. She did not name anyone.

Even when CCTV was shown to her that the offence could not possibly have taken place, she was still convinced that she had been raped.

tritium

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The rate of sexual victimisation on US prisoners in 2011-2012 is around 4%:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri1112.pdf

Compare this to the rate of sexual victimisation of female college students which was estimated in one report as 15% during college and 35% prior to college:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

Note these are for all sexual assaults and rape would be a smaller fraction of that figure.

I don't think any similar studies have taken place in Ireland, but we have a very good system of reporting so any such incidents (and no one is saying that it doesn't happen) and we also segregate sex offenders and violent prisoners.

So in the US, the rate is less than 4% and it is probably even less still in Ireland.

The idea that rape is commonplace in prisons is another rape myth, much like the perception of stranger rape being common (again, in the U.K. 66-78% of rape/sexual assault cases the assailant is known to the complainant, I've seen figures as close as 95%):

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

As I said I don't have the study to hand. However a quick wiki will show that the figures you quote are far from universally accepted, with estimates ranging to at least the high twenty percents - there are surveys that claim the incidence of male on male prison rape is higher than the rate of rape in the general population as a whole. I'd also note that the other statistics you quote around incidence in college going females is also far from uncontroversial - unfortunately most statistics related to sexual crime are controversial and subject to massive ranges within the point estimates

johnnyskeleton

desertcircus wrote: »

Finally: it's not that simple. Do you think a woman will be more likely to come forward if she knows she'll be treated fairly and with compassion, or if she knows that she's guaranteed a lengthy sentence?

There is nothing inconsistent about treating rape complainants with respect while prosecuting those who have made demonstrably false complaints.

Basically anyone who has been raped should come forward, but don't lie about it. What's wrong with that?

Jester252

Yes just look at the Micheal Le Vell thread. When he was not guilty people where still going on as if he was guilty. No smoke without fire and all that BS. The guy got dragged through the dirt during the trial and people are still not convinced of his innocence. A false accusation of rape ruins lives and that why people do them. They should be made pay for ruining the live of another person.

johnnyskeleton

tritium wrote: »

As I said I don't have the study to hand. However a quick wiki will show that the figures you quote are far from universally accepted, with estimates ranging to at least the high twenty percents - there are surveys that claim the incidence of male on male prison rape is higher than the rate of rape in the general population as a whole. I'd also note that the other statistics you quote around incidence in college going females is also far from uncontroversial - unfortunately most statistics related to sexual crime are controversial and subject to massive ranges within the point estimates

Well if Wikipedia says I'm wrong then I won't stand over my U.S. Federal Government statistics.

Wibbs

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Compare this to the rate of sexual victimisation of female college students which was estimated in one report as 15% during college and 35% prior to college:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

Note these are for all sexual assaults and rape would be a smaller fraction of that figure.

Indeed, however the oft quoted one in four women are raped in US colleges is a crock of poo. Though like I say oft quoted. Actual stats and risks are far far lower. Common sense would show this to be the case. The worst cities for sexual assault rape stats in the US show reported figures around 100-150, even 200 per 100,000 citizens per year, yet we're asked to believe that University campuses are closer to 25,000 rapes per 100,000? So I'd add that one to the "Rape myth" pile.

johnnyskeleton

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, however the oft quoted one in four women are raped in US colleges is a crock of poo. Though like I say oft quoted. Actual stats and risks are far far lower. Common sense would show this to be the case. The worst cities for sexual assault rape stats in the US show reported figures around 100-150, even 200 per 100,000 citizens per year, yet we're asked to believe that University campuses are closer to 25,000 rapes per 100,000? So I'd add that one to the "Rape myth" pile.

You're not comparing like for like. The report I cited found 10.1% had made a complaint before college i.e. 10,100 per 100,000, not 25,000. But that's not per year, that's for their lives to date. And young women are a high risk group. And the methodology of your figure of 100-150 is not clear i.e. is this convictions, reported incidents etc?

I don't think a 10% rate for a high risk demographic group is an unreasonable estimation. It is an estimate of the reporting rate of rape, not of convictions, not of proven rapes. The level of attrition from reporting to conviction is significant - 7% in Ireland for example, and that excludes complaints that have not been made to the gardai (source). So with all that in mind, 10,100 reports could result in c. 700 convictions. 700 convictions for a lifetime, if we spread this over say 5 years is 140. 140 per 100,000 is in line with your figures, and don't forget that young women are a higher risk category for rape (less so for other forms of sexual assault).

So you know, if common sense tells you to disbelieve the statistics, that's just fine. I appreciate that my reply is just a quick response to yours, so is not entirely comparing like for like, but then again, you are the one who is not comparing like for like in the first place, and I am simply explaining the difference between the statistics.

In any event, this is to miss the point - if those statistics are wrong, then so too are the prison rape statistics. If you think that statistical analysis of the reporting rate is misleading, then the statistics for the reporting rate in prisons must also be misleading.

Wibbs

1 in 10(over a lifetime up to that date too) is a helluva lot smaller a figure than the usual 1 in 4 trotted out. Hell they even have websites named after the stat claiming it as a fact and I simply call shenanigans.



EDIT The reporting rate for prisons seems more in line with 1 in 10 than the higher figures. The 100-150 were reports not convictions.

GalwayGuy2

Indeed, however the oft quoted one in four women are raped in US colleges is a crock of poo. Though like I say oft quoted. Actual stats and risks are far far lower. Common sense would show this to be the case. The worst cities for sexual assault rape stats in the US show reported figures around 100-150, even 200 per 100,000 citizens per year, yet we're asked to believe that University campuses are closer to 25,000 rapes per 100,000? So I'd add that one to the "Rape myth" pile.

I hate that myth so much.

You honestly wonder how any woman can feel safe when people are telling them they have a 1/4 chance of being raped.

Btw, the whole thing about prison rape is that it is not reported. And thinking of some of the childhoods these fellas had, I reckon a rapist or pedophile will not get off lightly in prison.

Jester252

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I hate that myth so much.

You honestly wonder how any woman can feel safe when people are telling them they have a 1/4 chance of being raped.

Btw, the whole thing about prison rape is that it is not reported. And thinking of some of the childhoods these fellas had, I reckon a rapist or pedophile will not get off lightly in prison.

If this was in Vegas they would have some of the best odds in the house.

johnnyskeleton

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Btw, the whole thing about prison rape is that it is not reported.

Then the only people who know if it happens or not are the prisoners themselves, specifically the offenders and the injured parties.

But you also have to take into account that prison doctors would see the prisoners and it would be professionally wrong for them not to report any instances of abuse onwards.

Again, I'm not saying that it cannot or does not happen, but I think that American movies and TV have given a skewed view of how prevalent the problem is.

Femme_Fatale

WilyCoyote wrote: »

She raped him emotionally. Fancy being sent down for something that you didn't do. Why should she not get a similar sentence? Because she's a woman?

Nowhere did I suggest that. If a man wrongfully accused a woman of rape, I wouldn't think he should get the same sentence as a rapist either.

Afraid of her parents? Don't give me that crap.

I didn't give you any of that crap. What's with the putting words in my mouth?

She saw this fellow go to jail - wrongfully convicted. She must be a sociopath and a pretty fucking evil one at that.

Agreed. It is an evil thing to do and anyone who does it should get a jail sentence - the same length sentence served by the wrongfully accused person would seem fair IMO, yes.

michael.dublin

if you on purpose is sending someone to prison, you should automatically get double up yourself, so 4 years taken, should give you 8 years. Maybe then people in cases like this would think twice before making up some story

periodictable

Absolutely.

WilyCoyote

Femme_Fatale
Registered User


Quote:
Originally Posted by WilyCoyote
She raped him emotionally. Fancy being sent down for something that you didn't do. Why should she not get a similar sentence? Because she's a woman?
Nowhere did I suggest that. If a man wrongfully accused a woman of rape, I wouldn't think he should get the same sentence as a rapist either.
Quote:
Afraid of her parents? Don't give me that crap.
I didn't give you any of that crap. What's with the putting words in my mouth?
Quote:
She saw this fellow go to jail - wrongfully convicted. She must be a sociopath and a pretty ****ing evil one at that.
Agreed. It is an evil thing to do and anyone who does it should get a jail sentence - the same length sentence served by the wrongfully accused person would seem fair IMO, yes.

Easy up there please! That is why there was a question mark after my question. Nobody accusing you of anything.

I was merely reiterating what the story had said .......... that she was using the"afraid of her parents" chestnut - which is a load of crap.

I don't want to get bogged down in a discussion - lest I encourage the feminazis to flame me. And by that I mean the usual suspects. Not you Femme_Fatale.
Shalom!

Arawn

If this ever happened to me, the false accusor would be dead as quickly as possible. who the **** knows what he went through in those 4 years

Sgt. Al Powell

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

the same length sentence served by the wrongfully accused person would seem fair IMO, yes.

So if a woman says that some man raped her and he gets a five year sentence, but after a few weeks it comes to light that she made the whole thing up, she should only get a few weeks herself??

What kind of codswallop is that.

Arawn

lahalane wrote: »

Maybe it was a more lenient sentence because she was 17 when she made the claims and therefore a minor? Just speculating so I'm open to correction.

she was also 18 the year after,19 the year after that, 20 the year after that, I wonder what she did in those years, college?? Vacations? Enjoy herself? because one thing is for certain the young man didn't!

Also is there a case to be made for wrongful imprisonment against her??

Also lets keep in mind, this was what she made up because she was caught looking at porn, seriously that was her go to move, caught looking at porn so claim rape??

tritium

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Well if Wikipedia says I'm wrong then I won't stand over my U.S. Federal Government statistics.

I think if you bother to review it you'll find several references given, including the Federal Government statistics you quote.....

But no, continue to believe you have the real figure. Just as accurate and uncontroversial as the college figure you quoted. All other research is clearly spurious....

WilyCoyote

desertcircus wrote: »

"Here's an incredibly rare story from a jurisdiction several thousand miles away. We've left out pretty much everything to do with context and made no effort whatsoever to consider why someone would be so scared of their own parents' reaction as to make a false rape accusation. We're also doing nothing to explain how this new sentencing rule might work, and damned if we're going to spend a moment's thought wondering if she would have come forward if she was guaranteed a four-year sentence. We're not even going to begin to think about the fact that perjury is a completely different crime to rape, and don't you dare wonder why we decided to focus on this rather than on horrifically low reporting and conviction rates for rape. What's that? You're worried that a focus on stories like this rather than the reality of sexual assault cases will prejudice public opinion and actively damage our chances of making a better society? Hush hush, there's a story to sell."

Do a little research into the story. What kind of an oafish post is this? Karma would suggest you being at the wrong end of an accusation and spending four years in the slammer. Leave the semantics out of it. We are talking about a person's freedom here.

If you've got time on your hands (which more than likely you have), try reading up on the Bill Of Rights which was proposed to the Constitution and ratified a few years later.

Your post must qualify as being one of the most misguided/stupid in boards this year.

lahalane

Arawn wrote: »

she was also 18 the year after,19 the year after that, 20 the year after that, I wonder what she did in those years, college?? Vacations? Enjoy herself? because one thing is for certain the young man didn't!

Also is there a case to be made for wrongful imprisonment against her??

Also lets keep in mind, this was what she made up because she was caught looking at porn, seriously that was her go to move, caught looking at porn so claim rape??

I'm not talking about this morally, of course she was wrong. I'm talking from a legal point of view. Since she was 17 when the claim was made, would she not be convicted with that in mind. If it was found out that a 40 year old guy shot someone when he was 10, he wouldn't be tried as an adult.

It's annoying that I have to add this so people won't berate me but I am not sticking up for the girl, I'm just wondering was there a reason for her short prison sentence.

K-9

Wibbs wrote: »

1 in 10(over a lifetime up to that date too) is a helluva lot smaller a figure than the usual 1 in 4 trotted out. Hell they even have websites named after the stat claiming it as a fact and I simply call shenanigans.



EDIT The reporting rate for prisons seems more in line with 1 in 10 than the higher figures. The 100-150 were reports not convictions.

I remember reading a piece a few months back suggesting often the victims would be of a serial rapist, which makes sense in a way, a rapist who gets away with it is likely to keep on doing it.

Men I think take the 1 in 4 figure personally as it can seem to suggest that a hell of a lot men rape women, but serial rapists would account for a big chunk of the figures.

Holsten

Yes, they should be named and receive some form of punishment.

**** load of community service and to pay compensation to their victim, in this case the person falsely accused.

johnnyskeleton

tritium wrote: »

I think if you bother to review it you'll find several references given, including the Federal Government statistics you quote.....

But no, continue to believe you have the real figure. Just as accurate and uncontroversial as the college figure you quoted. All other research is clearly spurious....

You're the one making the claim yet you've produced absolutely nothing to support it.

Wibbs

K-9 wrote: »

Men I think take the 1 in 4 figure personally as it can seem to suggest that a hell of a lot men rape women.

I don't take it like that myself K-9. If the stats were true and your average US campus was a veritable orgy of near nightly rape and sexual assault it wouldn't reflect on me personally as I'm quite simply not someone who would want a bar of non consensual sex. A vast majority of convicted serial killers are men, this does not mean man = serial killer and it most certainly doesn't make me = serial killer.

My problem is with the stats themselves and the scaremongering involved in them. This particular figure regarding young women at US universities can be traced back to a mid 80's study by one Mary Koss. A study that had more holes than a sieve in it and whose conclusions would be beyond laughable, if they weren't so potentially deleterious.

Of course the loonier left among Feminism(TBH I itch at the thought of calling them feminists) which find many US campuses a fertile breeding ground for their nuttier beliefs and pronouncements bought right into this "fact" and repeat it down to this day.

Never mind that US gov led studies(PDF) into the reported incidence of sexual violence* shows at worst 5 in a 1000 women in 1995(the rates of what they term "completed rape" actually dropped from nearly 4 to under 2 per 1000 women from 1995-2010). These are averages taken over two year periods. So how do we get that figure up to one of 250 per 1000 women? Ehhhh GTFO I say, unless we want to believe that US colleges are rape centers of a level that would have you sending in the national guard to control it. Interestingly, the colleges themselves by law have to compile and provide reported crime stats on campus and their stats reflect the wider stats the government study found, not within an asses roar of "one in four".






*This runs the gamut from rape through unwanted fondling to verbal threats of a sexual nature.

Painted Pony

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

I can't believe there's even a debate on this.

I don’t think anyone is disputing that, treated in isolation, a false accuser deserves to be severely dealt with by the judicial system. The complications arise when you consider the implications of so doing.

The OP and others argues that this might diminish the prevalence of false accusers. Some of us doubt that, given the fact that the most likely way for a wrongful rape conviction to come to light is, as in this case, by the false accuser to confess. And a harsh penalty in this case just might just be enough to dissuade some other false accuser from also confessing.

But then I suppose you could make the same argument about actual rapists, or any other criminals. I.e. if you made the punishment less severe, the perpetrators might be more likely to admit their guilt. Maybe justice and pragmatism don’t go together?

tritium

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

You're the one making the claim yet you've produced absolutely nothing to support it.

My only claim was that the figure was high but that I didn't have the number to hand. Apart from that I noted that a) there's a range of figures available for this (true) and b) that the college stat you quoted was controversial (and sensationalist) (also true -thanks to Wibbs for covering this). Hell you even dismissed a Wiki page that covered your own statistics source - Jesus wept!