Sinn Fein Mayor backs Poppy Appeal lights plan.

SoulandForm

Im in two minds over whether this is good or bad however it is a massive gesture and given how things are at the moment there is a very strong argument that relaxing tensions in the city justifies it. The fact he was personally attacked by supporters of the Orange Order recently and yet is still prepared to come out with this shows character in my opinion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24172791

Iwasfrozen

Good for him. It's nice to see some nationalists breaking down the perceived taboo of the poppy. Hopefully more will follow.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Good for him. It's nice to see some nationalists breaking down the perceived taboo of the poppy. Hopefully more will follow.

I assume by "more to follow" you mean some sort of unionist reciprocation.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I assume by "more to follow" you mean some sort of unionist reciprocation.

I said "hopefully more will follow" as in more nationalists following this mans lead. I'm sure moves like this will help some Unionists take a less hard line approach in general as they see their values are being cared for but that's not really the issue here. Either way I wish you would stop seeing all this as a zero sum game.

SoulandForm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Good for him. It's nice to see some nationalists breaking down the perceived taboo of the poppy. Hopefully more will follow.

Look at a lot of people in mainland UK have been talking about the whole thing about has been increasingly debased in recent years, I know a lot of people wear them to remember family members and ancestors in a dignified way but there was always an element in them which has been increasing of celebrating militarism. Also you have to remember we are not talking about Manchester or even Edinburgh but Belfast where the poppy has been known to feature in murals glorifying the UDA and the UVF and where things like the Ballymurphy massacre took place.

In Belfast Realpolitik this is a really MASSIVE gesture- this mayor has also had two pretty big gestures already. The real question is will this make the Loyalists calm down and back off a little or not.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I said "hopefully more will follow" as in more nationalists following this mans lead. I'm sure moves like this will help some Unionists take a less hard line approach in general as they see their values are being cared for but that's not really the issue here. Either way I wish you would stop seeing all this as a zero sum game.

Describe it however you like, respect is a two way street. will unionists make a similar gesture regarding easter or the lily. i hope so, it would certainly be a positive move

SoulandForm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Describe it however you like, respect is a two way street. will unionists make a similar gesture regarding easter or the lily. i hope so, it would certainly be a positive move

That is not going to happen.

However Paisley in order to get one over the UUP made a play at out sectarianisming them in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s and once he had trashed them you got the chuckle brothers- history is repeating itself the first time as tradgey, the second time as farce; PUP want to out sectarianize the DUP in order to displace and the Orange Order which some people believe here to be as Morris dancing clubs in the south of England have been more than happy to play along with it. PUP are very annoyed that in the post-Troubles Ireland Provisional Sinn Fein have been able to grow and become the main nationalist party in Northern Ireland and soon to become the main leftist (however soft left they are) in the 26 counties. Of course PSF's growth and PUP's mess are down to the level intelligence used by both groups but dont let that bother anyone. As Paisley appealed to people's lowest instincts in his rise to power so Billy Hutchinson is doing the same now. Hopefully this gesture will take the wind out of the sails of the PUP/OO/UVF ship. Hopefully. Its possible that it will be taken as a sign of weakness and encourage them.

Manassas61

Good to see.

Karl Stein

Looks better in green.

Richard

It's a good gesture on the Lotd Mayor's part, but I do find the idea itself a bit strange and tacky - a bit of a gimmick. It seems like it's being bathed in blood.

SoulandForm

Richard wrote: »

It's a good gesture on the Lotd Mayor's part, but I do find the idea itself a bit strange and tacky - a bit of a gimmick. It seems like it's being bathed in blood.

I totally agree- I think it further debases the Poppy, and further pushes it into being a symbol of trashy jingoism.

Crooked Jack

SoulandForm wrote: »

I totally agree- I think it further debases the Poppy, and further pushes it into being a symbol of trashy jingoism.

I'd say that trend is irrevocable at this stage. But look, if it helps reassure loyalists that nobody is attacking their "culture," maybe gets them to calm down a bit, then I'm all for it.

Manassas61

The vast majority of people who wear the poppy do so with dignity and out of respect for the fallen.

Crooked Jack

Manassas61 wrote: »

The vast majority of people who wear the poppy do so with dignity and out of respect for the fallen.

Worldwide? Probably. In Ireland? Probably not.

Godge

Manassas61 wrote: »

The vast majority of people who wear the poppy do so with dignity and out of respect for the fallen.

I have no reason to think otherwise, that is what the tradition is about.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Worldwide? Probably. In Ireland? Probably not.

What do you base this on?

Compared to, for example, wearing the shamrock on St. Patrick's day, the wearing of the poppy takes place in a much more dignified passion and with greater respect for what it means.

Crooked Jack

Godge wrote: »

What do you base this on?

Compared to, for example, wearing the shamrock on St. Patrick's day, the wearing of the poppy takes place in a much more dignified passion and with greater respect for what it means.

I base it on how I've seen the poppy used here. Wether its on loyalist murals, on wreaths laid at LVF memorials, forced on anyone appearing on TV during November, or any of the numerous stories you see in the news about how someone is outraged that they couldnt wear it in work/a pub/a club/ wherever despite the fact that they clearly knew they werent allowed to wear it and were obviously just doing so to make some sort of political point.
I'd also point out that the shamrock doesnt commemorate members of an organistion that has spent the last century terrorising people in every corner of the globe, not least of all here.

Why, what do you base your assertion on?

Manassas61

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I base it on how I've seen the poppy used here. Wether its on loyalist murals, on wreaths laid at LVF memorials, forced on anyone appearing on TV during November, or any of the numerous stories you see in the news about how someone is outraged that they couldnt wear it in work/a pub/a club/ wherever despite the fact that they clearly knew they werent allowed to wear it and were obviously just doing so to make some sort of political point.
I'd also point out that the shamrock doesnt commemorate members of an organistion that has spent the last century terrorising people in every corner of the globe, not least of all here.

Why, what do you base your assertion on?

The Shamrock is on many Ulster Loyalist flags. Should that be banned? Lets get real about it.

Manassas61

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Worldwide? Probably. In Ireland? Probably not.

Particularly in Ulster, yes. Most Protestants who wear it are doing so for the the gallant fallen. Especially huge emphasis on the first world war.

Iwasfrozen

Manassas61 wrote: »

The Shamrock is on many Ulster Loyalist flags. Should that be banned? Lets get real about it.

We should ban the phoenix and harp too by that definition.

Manassas61

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We should ban the phoenix and harp too by that definition.

Exactly. Lets just ban all symbols which might offend some people. The Shamrock is offensive in an alternate universe.

junder

Manassas61 wrote: »

Exactly. Lets just ban all symbols which might offend some people. The Shamrock is offensive in an alternate universe.

We should go further, ban all letters associated with paramiltary groups, since they too appear on murals. I'm sure we could get by without the letters u,v and f, and I, r and a

Crooked Jack

Manassas61 wrote: »

The Shamrock is on many Ulster Loyalist flags. Should that be banned? Lets get real about it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We should ban the phoenix and harp too by that definition.

Manassas61 wrote: »

Exactly. Lets just ban all symbols which might offend some people. The Shamrock is offensive in an alternate universe.

junder wrote: »

We should go further, ban all letters associated with paramiltary groups, since they too appear on murals. I'm sure we could get by without the letters u,v and f, and I, r and a

Go back. Read my posts. The only people who mentioned banning were you lot. You've done this in previous threads on the OO as well, started railing against "bans" nobody mentioned. Seems to be some sort of ludicrous debating tactic.

junder

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Go back. Read my posts. The only people who mentioned banning were you lot. You've done this in previous threads on the OO as well, started railing against "bans" nobody mentioned. Seems to be some sort of ludicrous debating tactic.

Happy man has talked about banning the orange order several times

Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

Happy man has talked about banning the orange order several times

I dont see Happyman anywhere here talking about banning the poppy. Imaginary bans are the new "Never!"

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Go back. Read my posts. The only people who mentioned banning were you lot. You've done this in previous threads on the OO as well, started railing against "bans" nobody mentioned. Seems to be some sort of ludicrous debating tactic.

junder wrote: »

Happy man has talked about banning the orange order several times

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I dont see Happyman anywhere here talking about banning the poppy. Imaginary bans are the new "Never!"

*Ahem*

http://rorygregg.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/shifting_goals2.jpg

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

*Ahem*

http://rorygregg.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/shifting_goals2.jpg

And this thread?
Anybody?

SoulandForm

Manassas61 wrote: »

Particularly in Ulster, yes. Most Protestants who wear it are doing so for the the gallant fallen. Especially huge emphasis on the first world war.

Particularly in Ulster? England, Wales and Scotland didnt go through Operation Banner with its bloody sundays, Ballmurphy massacres, "Military Reaction Forces" and use of torture by the British Army therefore wearing one in Ulster is a very different thing and could be said to be grossly insensitive at best. Also people in six counties seem to wear them a lot longer than they do on the UK mainland. The idea that the poppy is particularly worn in a dignified manner in Ulster is the very opposite of reality.

Godge

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I dont see Happyman anywhere here talking about banning the poppy. Imaginary bans are the new "Never!"

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Go back. Read my posts. The only people who mentioned banning were you lot. You've done this in previous threads on the OO as well, started railing against "bans" nobody mentioned. Seems to be some sort of ludicrous debating tactic.

Great we are all agreed that the poppy should not be banned. That is a good first step.

Manassas61 wrote: »

The vast majority of people who wear the poppy do so with dignity and out of respect for the fallen.

Now, let us get back to the vast majority who wear the poppy with dignity and respect for the fallen and how that should be encouraged.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I base it on how I've seen the poppy used here. Wether its on loyalist murals, on wreaths laid at LVF memorials, forced on anyone appearing on TV during November, or any of the numerous stories you see in the news about how someone is outraged that they couldnt wear it in work/a pub/a club/ wherever despite the fact that they clearly knew they werent allowed to wear it and were obviously just doing so to make some sort of political point.
I'd also point out that the shamrock doesnt commemorate members of an organistion that has spent the last century terrorising people in every corner of the globe, not least of all here.

Why, what do you base your assertion on?

Wait a minute, who is moving the goalposts by talking about murals or wreaths?

Karl Stein

'The fallen'. I thought I was watching Sky News there for a second.

Madam

I don't wear the red poppy - far too politicised for me - especially here in Scotland and NI! I've been buying and wearing the white poppy now for a few years and the abuse I get from the 'other' crowd is unbelievable but I shall continue to wear it with pride and maybe buy the odd red poppy if I feel like NOT because someone bullies me into it:rolleyes:

SoulandForm

In fairness the British Legion they did pull the plug on a stunt the DUP cooked up recently so credit to them for that.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/royal-british-legion-rejects-dup-plea-to-fly-union-flag-at-belfast-cenotaph-29205969.html

Id be happy to wear the Poppy outside of Ulster if I knew all the money raised was going to WWII veterans but unfortunately that is not the case.

Fratton Fred

SoulandForm wrote: »

In fairness the British Legion they did pull the plug on a stunt the DUP cooked up recently so credit to them for that.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/royal-british-legion-rejects-dup-plea-to-fly-union-flag-at-belfast-cenotaph-29205969.html

Id be happy to wear the Poppy outside of Ulster if I knew all the money raised was going to WWII veterans but unfortunately that is not the case.

Most of the money would be going to Afghanistan veterans I expect. Do you have a problem with it going to UN peace keepers?

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Most of the money would be going to Afghanistan veterans I expect. Do you have a problem with it going to UN peace keepers?

And Iraq veterans. And veterans of NI, Aden, Kenya, India, Uganda, Tanjanika, Suez/Egypt etc and so on.


And those like this lot, who don't help
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/sep/29/rangers-military

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

And Iraq veterans. And veterans of NI, Aden, Kenya, India, Uganda, Tanjanika, Suez/Egypt etc and so on.


And those like this lot, who don't help
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/sep/29/rangers-military

Do you type all that out every time, or do you have it on your clip board?

SoulandForm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Most of the money would be going to Afghanistan veterans I expect. Do you have a problem with it going to UN peace keepers?

Are you seriously suggesting that the invasion of Afghanistan was done out of the goodness of the British state's heart? Remember they had a hand together with the Americans in destroying the secular government and placing the Taliban in power in the first place- and the people they have put in place now are just as bad or worse than the Taliban. It was a nasty war over poppy production and a gas pipeline.

Banjo String

Great.

Maybe the DUP will embrace a plan to wear Easter lilies at Easter 2014as a remark of respect for Ireland's dead.

Personally I don't have a problem with them (poppies), but I can understand those that do as it represents members of a particular army responsible for many atrocities in the six counties.

Fratton Fred

SoulandForm wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that the invasion of Afghanistan was done out of the goodness of the British state's heart? Remember they had a hand together with the Americans in destroying the secular government and placing the Taliban in power in the first place- and the people they have put in place now are just as bad or worse than the Taliban. It was a nasty war over poppy production and a gas pipeline.

Of course it was.

Why was ISAF created with the unanimous backing of the UN security council?

D1stant

Jeez what next?

Martin Ferris giving Morris dancing lessons? Cricket match after the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis? Sammy Wilson learning Irish?

I love it

SoulandForm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Of course it was.

Why was ISAF created with the unanimous backing of the UN security council?

Bless your innocent cotton socks-in this cynical age such a level of trust even if it is entirely misplaced is almost touching.

The answer to your question is simple; Geopolitics.

SoulandForm

D1stant wrote: »

Jeez what next?

Martin Ferris giving Morris dancing lessons? Cricket match after the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis? Sammy Wilson learning Irish?

I love it

Morris dancing if you see it in the flesh is actually pretty damn amazing. Dont slag it.

Fratton Fred

SoulandForm wrote: »

Bless your innocent cotton socks-in this cynical age such a level of trust even if it is entirely misplaced is almost touching.

The answer to your question is simple; Geopolitics.

Geopolitics? What geopolitical value is Afghanistan to Ireland?

Or maybe they are part of the wider Zionist conspiracy as well?

Nodin

D1stant wrote: »

Jeez what next?

Martin Ferris giving Morris dancing lessons? Cricket match after the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis? Sammy Wilson learning Irish?

I love it

You know that Martin is a big cricket fan?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jan/25/martin-mcguinness-love-of-cricket

Anyhoo - this is just allowing one community to use a public building for an event usually associated with their culture. It's a decent gesture but shouldn't be read as acceptance of all the associations of that particular symbol.

timthumbni

Class.

Yeahhh. It's the yearly whine fest over the wearing of the poppy. At least that means Christmas is just around the corner.

Personally I wear the wee tiny pin badge poppy and then wear the normal one on the Remembrance Day itself.

Its only this last few years I've really started to hear any whining about people wearing the poppy. It's normally from predictable sources.

Not a major thing relative to other issues we have in Northern Ireland.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

You know that Martin is a big cricket fan?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jan/25/martin-mcguinness-love-of-cricket

Anyhoo - this is just allowing one community to use a public building for an event usually associated with their culture. It's a decent gesture but shouldn't be read as acceptance of all the associations of that particular symbol.

Cricket used to be the biggest played sport in Ireland, but cricket was always a village/community based sport and was quickly killed off by the GAA. It is rapidly growing though and there are some world class Irish players. Unfortunately they are having to play for England in order to play at the highest level. Cricket Ireland is ambitious though so watch this space.

Hopefully Morris dancing will not see a similar renaissance!

I agree with you though Nodin (sit down, take a deep breath) this is a good move. Politics in NI is a case of constant negotiation, sometimes you need to give in order to take and I'm sure nationalists will want to commemorate the Easter uprising in 2016 and this will go a long way to making that a reality.

first doyle

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Good for him. It's nice to see some nationalists breaking down the perceived taboo of the poppy. Hopefully more will follow.

There should be no compromise on the poppy. Let's hope he's kicked out of the party.

Fratton Fred

first doyle wrote: »

There should be no compromise on the poppy. Let's hope he's kicked out of the party.

There will never be a united Ireland with attitudes like that.

SoulandForm

first doyle wrote: »

There should be no compromise on the poppy. Let's hope he's kicked out of the party.

Why is the Poppy much worse than the Monarchy in your view?

I wouldnt wear one myself but I can understand why many people do. I cant understand why anyone would want anything to do with the Windsor clan let alone vote to set aside public money to celebrate their birthdays.

Sound of Silence

first doyle wrote: »

There should be no compromise on the poppy. Let's hope he's kicked out of the party.

I guess that the last forty years of Irish history has failed to teach you that a lack of compromise in Northern Ireland ain't exactly a good idea.

SoulandForm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Cricket used to be the biggest played sport in Ireland, but cricket was always a village/community based sport and was quickly killed off by the GAA. It is rapidly growing though and there are some world class Irish players. Unfortunately they are having to play for England in order to play at the highest level. Cricket Ireland is ambitious though so watch this space.

Hopefully Morris dancing will not see a similar renaissance!

I agree with you though Nodin (sit down, take a deep breath) this is a good move. Politics in NI is a case of constant negotiation, sometimes you need to give in order to take and I'm sure nationalists will want to commemorate the Easter uprising in 2016 and this will go a long way to making that a reality.

Why?

People laugh at Morris dancing but when you actually see it for yourself you can experience the primordial power that oozes from it.

Its an amazing part of British culture.

riffmongous

I think the story itself is very positive, he's not going to wear it himself but he's not going to hinder anyone else's plans, that's the way it should be imo.

It also looks good for SF too, especially at a time when some of the loyalist/unionist groups seem to be doing a lot of damage to the reputation of the people of NI

Iwasfrozen

first doyle wrote: »

There should be no compromise on the poppy. Let's hope he's kicked out of the party.

SF are smarter then that.