Purchasing New Car maybe Electric

patmac

Hi I am buying new in 2014, have an 07 Suzuki Swift Petrol does about 40mpg, 185,000kms on the clock. Fuel efficiency is king and am tempted to go electric(Nissan Leaf possibly) as I travel a round trip of 100km to work each day and the cost is €70 per week in petrol.
I would like to hear from Electric Car owners to see how they are fairing with their cars or would I be better off going with a new diesel. The Clio is claiming 70mpg but I am not fond of Renault.
Budget is about €20k with trade in or scrappage if it is introduced in the next budget.
Any advice would be great.

Big Nasty

IBM_L

galwaytt

MCMLXXV wrote: »

IBM_L

Lol :pac:

keithclancy

For Forks Sake

Kudos to whichever of ye did this one up as well

HandsomeDan

An electric costs a lot more than the equivalent diesel. That be the one to weigh up.

Also it would need to be charged every day. So, think smartphone, but with your car

beazee

Irish EV Owners group seems to be the perfect place to ask. Almost 100 members so far, majority driving EVs.

HandsomeDan

HandsomeDan wrote: »

An electric costs a lot more than the equivalent diesel. That be the one to weigh up.

Also it would need to be charged every day. So, think smartphone, but with your car

Does it ?

You can get a 2011 Leaf from the U.K for about 13-15 K with 15-30K miles. That's pretty in line with any ordinary car. It's not so outrageously priced any more.

50 euro in electric gets you around 2400 miles and don't forget free public fast charging for now.

patmac

patmac wrote: »

Hi I am buying new in 2014, have an 07 Suzuki Swift Petrol does about 40mpg, 185,000kms on the clock. Fuel efficiency is king and am tempted to go electric(Nissan Leaf possibly) as I travel a round trip of 100km to work each day and the cost is €70 per week in petrol.
I would like to hear from Electric Car owners to see how they are fairing with their cars or would I be better off going with a new diesel. The Clio is claiming 70mpg but I am not fond of Renault.
Budget is about €20k with trade in or scrappage if it is introduced in the next budget.
Any advice would be great.

The Leaf is a really super car to drive and you'll love the power delivery, it's amazing to experience. It's no slouch either, it gives a good kick off the line much better I hear than the toned down 2013's.

As long as you know that your winter range can be as low as 60 miles and you can charge at your destination or fast charge then you're sorted.

Summer range can be around 80 miles. The heater is hungry and the battery doesn't like the cold as the internal resistance increases with the cold preventing a full charge.

The Chevy spark EV will have a heated and cooled battery and a tested 90 mile range at 100kph no heat and no a/c.

Winter range is not known yet, as the battery is heated the heater is more inefficient than the 2013 leaf with heat pump.

If you hold out long enough the spark might cost as little as 21K and give the same 0-100 kph as a 2.0L 180 hp diesel GTD Golf for a fraction of the cost to buy and run.

Disadvantage is the new fast charge standard called ccs, it's different to the leaf and causing the ESB a major headache. There will be 0 ccs chargers for a while yet and no one knows if there will be an adapter to connect to the current CHAdeMo fast chargers.

The major advantage of ccs is the 140 kw charge capability compared to 50kw for CHAdeMo. meaning charging in future ev's in 10 mins or less.

The Leaf batter seems to be holding up pretty well, rumours are that you loose the first capacity bar around 80,000 miles meaning a 15% capacity loss. but I don't think anyone in Europe has reached that yet in their Leaf and being in a cooler climate Irish/UK leafs should hold up better.

So what if you have to plug in your car every day, could people really be that lazy that such a simple task could bother them ?

kyote00

Kinda ironic that the OP doesn't want a Renault but is ok with Nissan

The green credentials for EVs are under severe scrutiny by many well respected journals -- especially when the full supply chain is included.....
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed

OP, might be better off with a 2-3 year old diesel and pocket the rest for your holidays....

Scortho

Mad_Lad im not singleing you out or anything but lets say youve an average commute of 25 miles to and from work.
Winter range is 60 miles?

so now you have around 10 miles of juice before you kind of need to charge her up again?
What happens when you get home from work, 10 minutes later you get a call to say your mother is after taking a turn for the worse and you should come into hospital straight way?
What are you to say? Tell her to hang on a while, as I have to charge the feckin car.

Or if your child is seriously ill late at night and needs to be rushed to hospital. You live 20 minutes away from crumlin but you forgot to charge the car. Theres no ambulance available due to cut backs. WHat do you do in that situation?

In the future when they can get the car charged in the same time as it takes to fill up a car with petrol and a decent mile range that allows you to go down the country without having to worry about oh **** ive ran out of electricity, 10 miles from the nearest charging point, then I can see electric cars becoming a viable alternative.
At the moment their charge times are too long and their range too short.

kyote00

kyote00 wrote: »

The green credentials for EVs are under severe scrutiny by many well respected journals -- especially when the full supply chain is included.....
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed

OP, might be better off with a 2-3 year old diesel and pocket the rest for your holidays....

Who cares about the green credentials ? Sure they are emissions free some more than others depending on electricity consumption.

Electrics are pretty good to drive the Leaf a lot more then zoe. The spark more than them all.

Most people care that they save money given the same price of the equivalent ice car.

2-3 year old diesel will still cost a lot with a lot of miles and cost a lot in diesel and have much higher maintenance.

Remember 50 Euro's in leccy will get you average 2400 miles.

galwaytt

beazee wrote: »

Irish EV Owners group seems to be the perfect place to ask. Almost 100 members so far, majority driving EVs.

...so some closet diesel-owning EV guys amongst them, eh ? :P

Scortho wrote: »

....so now you have around 10 miles of juice before you kind of need to charge her up again?.....What are you to say? Tell her to hang on a while, as I have to charge the feckin car..

You use your other car.
Unless you live in an urban area, particularly with one public transport, just remember the mantra ...'man cannot live on bread EV transport alone' .

Scortho

Scortho wrote: »

Mad_Lad im not singleing you out or anything but lets say youve an average commute of 25 miles to and from work.
Winter range is 60 miles?

so now you have around 10 miles of juice before you kind of need to charge her up again?
What happens when you get home from work, 10 minutes later you get a call to say your mother is after taking a turn for the worse and you should come into hospital straight way?
What are you to say? Tell her to hang on a while, as I have to charge the feckin car.

Or if your child is seriously ill late at night and needs to be rushed to hospital. You live 20 minutes away from crumlin but you forgot to charge the car. Theres no ambulance available due to cut backs. WHat do you do in that situation?

In the future when they can get the car charged in the same time as it takes to fill up a car with petrol and a decent mile range that allows you to go down the country without having to worry about oh **** ive ran out of electricity, 10 miles from the nearest charging point, then I can see electric cars becoming a viable alternative.
At the moment their charge times are too long and their range too short.

I've heard this one before many many times.

You are using an unlikely scenario, possible but unlikely.

What if you call an ambulance and you're dead before it gets to you ?

What if the ambulance won't start ?

What if your child is ill and you go out to your ice car and it won't start ?

Scortho

Deleted User wrote: »

I've heard this one before many many times.

You are using an unlikely scenario, possible but unlikely.

What if you call an ambulance and you're dead before it gets to you ?

What if the ambulance won't start ?

What if your child is ill and you go out to your ice car and it won't start ?

It is an unlikely scenario, but i know at that moment Id be thinking oh **** why didnt I buy a petrol car etc instead.
Yes the petrol car mightn't start but theres a much greater chance of you not having electricity in your car to go out on another journey in case of an emergency (i can put enough petrol in my car that lets me travel 20 miles in less than 2 minutes, how long would an ev take to charge).

Dont get me wrong, I like the idea of electric cars, theyre just not feasible enough in their current form.

Scortho

Scortho wrote: »

It is an unlikely scenario, but i know at that moment Id be thinking oh **** why didnt I buy a petrol car etc instead.
Yes the petrol car mightn't start but theres a much greater chance of you not having electricity in your car to go out on another journey in case of an emergency (i can put enough petrol in my car that lets me travel 20 miles in less than 2 minutes, how long would an ev take to charge).

Dont get me wrong, I like the idea of electric cars, theyre just not feasible enough in their current form.

You could likely replace 20 miles of electric in 5 mins on a fast charger.

MuppetCheck

Deleted User wrote: »

I've heard this one before many many times.

You are using an unlikely scenario, possible but unlikely.

What if you call an ambulance and you're dead before it gets to you ?

What if the ambulance won't start ?

What if your child is ill and you go out to your ice car and it won't start ?

Come off it, I can name a few instances in the last month where I had to make an unexpected journey for whatever reason after work. This kind of thing does happen. The reason you dismiss it is because it's a negative point of EVs rather than admitting it's a valid limitation.

beazee

galwaytt wrote: »

...so some closet diesel-owning EV guys amongst them, eh ? :P

Call them bicycle owning EV enthusiasts. Myself included

lafiamma09

Will be following this thread with interest, im pretty much sold on getting an SV Leaf in January, but there are a few things i want to be happy with first. Will see if this thread answers any questions i have, if not, and so i dont hijack this one ill put up a new thread


Edit: just seen there my post count has been reset to 1. ill throw up an intro later

lafiamma09

lafiamma09 wrote: »

Will be following this thread with interest, im pretty much sold on getting an SV Leaf in January, but there are a few things i want to be happy with first. Will see if this thread answers any questions i have, if not, and so i dont hijack this one ill put up a new thread

Well why don't you ask a few questions, after all that's what it's about.

If I were you if getting the SV then get the upgraded 6.6 kw charger.

If you're leasing which is wise if buying new then the MK II should be out in 3 years with more range.

thecomedian

With the distance the Op is travelling to work it wouldn't be advisable to get an EV, unless they can charge at work. Even at that they won't have much range left when they get home.

thecomedian

thecomedian wrote: »

With the distance the Op is travelling to work it wouldn't be advisable to get an EV, unless they can charge at work. Even at that they won't have much range left when they get home.

Why would he need much range ? he'll be home ?

2 hrs on charge and will probably have 30 miles or so in total maybe more and if the weather is milder probably have 75 total miles setting off in the morning in summer.

By the way OP what's your location ? there might be fast chargers somewhere near you ?

thecomedian

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why would he need much range ? he'll be home ?

2 hrs on charge and will probably have 30 miles or so in total maybe more and if the weather is milder probably have 75 total miles setting off in the morning in summer.

People go places when they get home. Loads of reasons, go training, go see friends, go to the cinema, see parents...
Please stop defending the EVs do much.
I think it's only right for the Op.

Now I'm not having a go at the EV but I don't think it will suit in this case.

This is where the fast chargers come in and in the future they will be much faster. Even Elon Musk has said 5 min charging isn't that far off, we'll not for tesla maybe, sure, But 5 min to charge a leaf v 30 mins would do most people.

If people want more range they can buy the merc b class ev with 115 miles real range, so we're told, EPA test shouldn't be too long. It's got tesla battery and electrics.

Though I think most people would be happy with spending 24k on a leaf v what for the merc ? 38 k maybe ? Maybe more I don't know yet.

That should be available at the end of next year here maybe, the US gets it first of course.

I think the spark ev is going to be one great car. 10 min faster charging than the leaf when the new ccs chargers become available.

The 2013 leaf with 6.6 kw charger (option) can charge from 0-100 percent in 4 hrs though the reality is that it will most likely take less than 3 hrs as nobody will come home with a drained battery. And that's for a full charge. Need a top up on way then fast charge for free, or take advantage and do most of your charging for free.

Scortho

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The 2013 leaf with 6.6 kw charger (option) can charge from 0-100 percent in 4 hrs though the reality is that it will most likely take less than 3 hrs as nobody will come home with a drained battery. And that's for a full charge. Need a top up on way then fast charge for free, or take advantage and do most of your charging for free.

The range is what 60-80 miles and it takes 3-4 hours to fully charge that?

How come earlier on you said you can recharge 20 miles in 5 mins?
Or is this in the future?

lafiamma09

Deleted User wrote: »

Well why don't you ask a few questions, after all that's what it's about.

If I were you if getting the SV then get the upgraded 6.6 kw charger.

If you're leasing which is wise if buying new then the MK II should be out in 3 years with more range.

In work at the moment so have to be quick. You allready answered my question as to when the mk II leaf is coming out. Two of my main concerns are:
1. Here in ireland the esb will fit a charge point at your house, this is great if you own the house but if your renting like me or in an apartment then this isnt an option. The uk supply a lead you can plug into a household socket however we cannot use the same lead over here due to esb concerns about house fires. You can buy a compatible lead from nissan but its a €900 extra... Can you get a lead, that we can use here, cheaper? (Much!) otherwise you are confined to having to use public charge points, and these are often blocked by ICE cars which could leave a person fairly stuck.. Where i (currently but soon to change) work there is a charge point 3 min walk away, and once a week i make a 220 km round trip but there are charge points along the way: M4 Applegreen. I dont want to be drip feeding the car the whole time.

2. The lease query... As i understand it, in the uk the ev's are sold substantially cheaper. The initial cost is offset through the owner renting the batterys with a monthly cost. These batteries as it stand will not be replaced your just paying for maintenance. In ireland you pay the higher up front cost but no monthly rental. What happens the batteries? Will they still be maintained? When / if they fail as i understand it it will cost depending on who you talk to anywhere in the region of €5k-€8k. This is a massive cost to be outlaying every say 10 years or so? ( Pure stab in the dark with that figure as i cannot get a right answer anywhere on the lifetime of the batteries). Or am i totally wrong, do we pay (for example the sv) €24k + rental on top?

Ive emailed nissan twice in the last few weeks and got no reply. Just been researching and reading blogs / forum threads to get as much info as possible. My current petrol costs for the month would pretty much pay for the car. Im willing to sacrifice range and having to plan my journeys a little in order to have a car that effectively pays for itself, but i dont want to jump into a big black hole without knowing the facts and whats in store for me.

Apologies to the op, dont want to hijack your thread

Thanks for the replies

commited

patmac wrote: »

Hi I am buying new in 2014, have an 07 Suzuki Swift Petrol does about 40mpg, 185,000kms on the clock. Fuel efficiency is king and am tempted to go electric(Nissan Leaf possibly) as I travel a round trip of 100km to work each day and the cost is €70 per week in petrol.
I would like to hear from Electric Car owners to see how they are fairing with their cars or would I be better off going with a new diesel. The Clio is claiming 70mpg but I am not fond of Renault.
Budget is about €20k with trade in or scrappage if it is introduced in the next budget.
Any advice would be great.

Fuel efficiency is important, but often depreciation is key. Spending €20k to save some of €3500/year is a bit of a bizarre plan.

From the above, you do about 30000km/year, with fuel costs of approximate €3500. If you were to manage to get 70mpg * <100kg CO2, that would bring your costs down to €2000/year and tax saving of €180/year. If you're spending €16k (assuming your car is worth 4k), then that's a payback period of 9 1/2 years.

Assuming you bought a 2011 Nissan Leaf for 11k (15k-4k), with electricity cost of 500/year (generous) and tax saving of 240/year, it would still take 3.5 years before you broke even and at that stage it would be out of warranty, have similar km's to your swift now and potentially require replacement batteries in the coming years.

Now of course, no car will last forever without a small bit of maintenance but any replacement car will also need maintenance and with the km's/year that you do, depreciation is heavy. Unless you're particularly hard on cars, the Swift has the potential to do 300,000kms easily so my advice would be to stick with what you have until something major goes wrong if your goal is to save money.

An investment with a good rate of return would be an LPG conversion if you have any stations near you, should save you about €20/week on fuel in your existing car.

jimmycrackcorm

MCMLXXV wrote: »

IBM_L

Funny that from a guy advertising part worn tyres for €25