Should the maximum handicap be reviewed?

Wichita Lineman

I also firmly believe most players over 22 hc would quit golf if they were forced to take a 4 shot cut (or more) to 18. The pressures on golf clubs is already immense and any significant lowering of the maximum handicap would definitely have an adverse affect on membership.

GreeBo

Ben1977 wrote: »

I actually think that the societies would follow a handicapping limit if introduced. They generally follow all the other rules, why won't they a hc limited one? When the grooves rule changed, wouldn't it change for us all?

The groove rules only apply to CONGU/GUI competitions.
You can do whatever you want in a society, its just casual golf really.

Redzah wrote: »

I don't agree with this, people play golf for the love of the game, it is fun competing and once the initial adjustment is made I believe anybody with a basic ability can compete off 18. I disagree with greebo that it is only in relation to starting handicap being 18, i would advocate that the max handicap should be 18 for all (except pensioners and disablilities).

If the max was reduced to 18, I don't believe it would drive many out of the game, potentially those who really have a bee in their bonnet (which would be a minority in my opinion) would play society golf but it wouldnt drive them out of the game and thus wouldn't increase membership fees. There would still be the same supply and demand and the courses that are maintained and run well would substitute any (minor) loss of members who object to this with an increased society supplement.

I knew it wouldnt last!
I think saying that you can never go above 18 unless you are old or disabled is a bit too Spartan, even for me. I think starting everyone at 18 or lower forces you to learn how to play the game and not just let you have fun hitting the ball.

Ben1977 wrote: »

People unfortunately make poor decisions all the time. You and me included.

Do you think it would discourage new people to golf if you cap it at 18? Why allow them to crawl back up if you are against giving them the hc the need?

As above, I think its better for everyone if you start off with the target of playing bogey golf. I firmly believe it will make you a better golfer. It seems, based on my observations, that allowing higher handicaps doesnt result in people trying to play to those handicaps.
Also, 18 is a logical starting point, 28 is random.

Someone made the point that people off 18 wouldnt be able to score 2 points on index 1 all the time....I counter that they will be capable of getting 3 points in plenty of other places (or 6 for some people so who cares. As well all know, golf is rarely made up of 18 2 pointers.

ssbob wrote: »

Unfortunately Ben from reading the thread we are going around in circles, the reason I have set up the poll is to see what the vast majority of people believe rather than having 2/3 people ferociously not being able to see any other argument other than their own.

Is there a problem with that though? As long as people are obeying the charter are we not free to discuss opinions (ad naseum) if we so desire?
Personally Im enjoying reasoned debates with a number of people on here, I'll assume they are also, since they keep replying (even though they are wrong ) why stop that?

GreeBo

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Not sure where you get your belief from but I am telling you I know many players at my club who would not renew their membership if they were cut to 18.

They'd stop playing golf?

m r c

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Not sure where you get your belief from but I am telling you I know many players at my club who would not renew their membership if they were cut to 18.

Me included I want to be cut down fairly, earn my way down.

To the op, do you really think I give a feck about some stupid prizes or vouchers they aren't even on my radar but when/if I'm on a score on 15 what's got the juices flowing is def the possible cut coming.

I've never came across anyone near scratch who had anything to say about the higher h/c lads above 18.



You initial point comes off as so petty and selfish going on about lads having two shots. What do you give a toss if they had 10 shots, watch your own game.

Redzah you talked here about paying €200 distance membership and trying to get lower and looking for a reduction in your sub to compete for the club, from the attitude you've shown to the higher h/c members of the club I hope you get laughed out the gate.

Redzah

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Not sure where you get your belief from but I am telling you I know many players at my club who would not renew their membership if they were cut to 18.

Well then let them not renew as they are not the type you want in your club anyway. Why?

1. Because they would not contribute to interclub golf
2. If they would leave because of this then their love of the game and a club atmosphere is questionable.
3. They would appear not to possess the mentality of bettering their game or focus to compete like the majority of other members of a club.
4. I'm sure a change over divisional (i.e. they have separate comps) period would occur and if this doesn't satisfy them, well then again their awkward bollixs who don't want to better themselves.

Ben1977

GreeBo wrote: »

As above, I think its better for everyone if you start off with the target of playing bogey golf. I firmly believe it will make you a better golfer. It seems, based on my observations, that allowing higher handicaps doesnt result in people trying to play to those handicaps.
Also, 18 is a logical starting point, 28 is random.

Someone made the point that people off 18 wouldnt be able to score 2 points on index 1 all the time....I counter that they will be capable of getting 3 points in plenty of other places (or 6 for some people so who cares. As well all know, golf is rarely made up of 18 2 pointers.

Again you avoided the question? Why allow them to crawl back up if you think 18 should be max starting point? Why note give them the hc that they require?

Corkblowin

realgolfgeek wrote: »

.

True Story:
I know a golfer, he plays off 21. He's hovering round that handicap for the last 2 years.
He's got a mental block on putting. I'd say he misses 75% of 1 to 2 foot putts. God knows how many putts he has per round.

If you took his putting out of the equation, I'd say he'd be a 7 or an 8 handicapper.

Now, do you think, because he has the ability, to drive and play irons like a 7 or 8 handicapper, that that's what his handicap should be ?

His short missed putts is purely psychological, but THAT is so much a part of the game.

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah I think his handicap should be a hell of a lot lower than 21!

The only way to assess someones handicap is on the scores they produce in competition when there is pressure on every shot. End of. Anything else is merely opinion and a system where people are cut because a person/committee thinks they should be better is open to abuse much more than the one we have at present.

If an 18+ handicapper is playing competitions regularly and their scores do not deserve a cut then they have the correct handicap. Seems simple to me.

GreeBo

@m r c
Attack the post and not the poster.
Personal Abuse will not be tolerated, by anyone.

Ben1977

Redzah wrote: »

Ha, is the grooves rule not being introduced some time after 2020 (not exactly sure when but i know its a while away) for amatuers. A lot of Societies have a law of their own, they cut people and give them extra shots based on society performance in the society. it adds the fun element into it for those who wish to go out and whack it with some friends without too much thought. I enjoy going out and whacking it with friends and going for everything, but i enjoy playing competitively and trying to maintain a score more than this, i think there is a distinct difference and i don't appreciate a society attitude giving an unfair advantage to an individual in competitive GUI golf by virtue of they go out and whack it with no thought and thus their handicap is exceptionally high (and higher than their current ability not potential suggests).

A couple of other thoughts;
What is the GUI's highest handicapped interclub competition? Pierce purcell? Is there one for those over 18 handicap? If there is not then to me that suggests that the GUI does not want to take the risk/backlash of running an interclub for handicaps of over 18 because the banditary and aggression caused because of this would be too much to manage. When i saw banditary, I do not mean this in the sinister way, i mean it in the way i have suggested in this forum that slightly better focus and course management that would come in an interclub competition would make a 24 handicapper more akin to an 18.

True the GUI don't have an All-Ireland for over 18 hc, but there is now upper limit on most of comps. The provinces would have comps that cover higher hc

GreeBo

Ben1977 wrote: »

Again you avoided the question? Why allow them to crawl back up if you think 18 should be max starting point? Why note give them the hc that they require?

Because I think 18 is a logical *starting* point.

If you can show that you cant play to it, while playing handicap golf then why wouldnt you allow them to go up after a review? (assuming 0.1's would take too long for them to get to whatever they need)

The way you approach each hole should be totally different depending on your handicap. Starting everyone at 18 would mean that they (should) approach each hole playing bogey golf. Sure you will have some pars and some "other" numbers, but sooner rather than later you will be able to play within your buffer for an 18 handicap. I think this is better for everyone. now you know how to play to your handicap you can start to determine whats the best way for *you* to play to lower than it.

today I see people with handicaps north of 18 and they arent learning how to play to them, they are always trying to play to better than it.
In rugby you have to earn the right to go wide with the ball, in golf you have to earn the right to play better than your handicap, otherwise you are just using it as a crutch imo.

Redzah

m r c wrote: »

Me included I want to be cut down fairly, earn my way down.

To the op, do you really think I give a feck about some stupid prizes or vouchers they aren't even on my radar but when/if I'm on a score on 15 what's got the juices flowing is def the possible cut coming.

I've never came across anyone near scratch who had anything to say about the higher h/c lads above 18.



You initial point comes off as so petty and selfish going on about lads having two shots. What do you give a toss if they had 10 shots, watch your own game.

Redzah you talked here about paying €200 distance membership and trying to get lower and looking for a reduction in your sub to compete for the club, from the attitude you've shown to the higher h/c members of the club I hope you get laughed out the gate.

Now now m r c, that agressive tone that you have displayed towards me is coming back and its not necessary on this thread, i have tryed to maintain a debating style with a valid arguement but if you want to go the route of personal attacks and insults then greebo, tonesy and plenty others will testify that I am a worthy opponent for you and we will both end up with a ban.

I do watch my own game carefully, I just think that a handicap over 18 is not fair to the rest of the competitiors in a GUI comp for the reasons i have outlined and i also think it is counterproductive to all stakeholders.
You may have noted that my point on trying to wrangle a good membership deal was secondary to my personal achievement of being back playing championship golf off scratch. And hey if I manage to get a membership for this then I will have earned it and it will be to the benefit of the club I joined as I will compete on their teams, compete in their name at championship level.

GreeBo

Final warning lads, drop it or take it to PM.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

I was just doing that!

I added in a starting option (and moved my vote down there) as thats what I've been talking about all along!

If anyone else wants to move from option 1 to option 4 let me know.

GreeBo wrote: »

Its nothing to do with trying to work the poll, it happens to be what I believe in.

Seriously, this thread is about capping handicaps at 18, there is next to no discussion focusing on initial handicaps.

Ssbob got the options right first time around.
The OP confirmed that.

You've went off on a curve ball and thrown in initial handicaps.
Initial handicaps is a whole different topic.
The addition of the fourth option skews things.
I would be in favour of an initial of 18 as long as there was a quick review but I think a cap of 18 is ridiculous.

The fourth option should be deleted, I know it's your view, but it's not the topic we are discussing.

Put it this way, if you believe in an overall cap of 18, then why is there even a need to say that initial handicaps should be capped at 18.... that should go without saying doesn't it.

At present I would vote 2 and 4....if 4 was on topic and there was a multiple vote option.

Ben1977

GreeBo wrote: »

Because I think 18 is a logical *starting* point.

If you can show that you cant play to it, while playing handicap golf then why wouldnt you allow them to go up after a review? (assuming 0.1's would take too long for them to get to whatever they need)

The way you approach each hole should be totally different depending on your handicap. Starting everyone at 18 would mean that they (should) approach each hole playing bogey golf. Sure you will have some pars and some "other" numbers, but sooner rather than later you will be able to play within your buffer for an 18 handicap. I think this is better for everyone. now you know how to play to your handicap you can start to determine whats the best way for *you* to play to lower than it.

today I see people with handicaps north of 18 and they arent learning how to play to them, they are always trying to play to better than it.
In rugby you have to earn the right to go wide with the ball, in golf you have to earn the right to play better than your handicap, otherwise you are just using it as a crutch imo.

Why no give them the HC they require in the first place?

You can't generalise how anyone will or anyone should approach golf or how to play golf. Its not for anyone to suggest.

PhlegmyMoses

GreeBo wrote: »

backseat moderation will get you a card on here and every other forum.
if you have a problem with a post, report it.

It's not against your charter so there's no point in reporting it and, as a result, it can't be backseat moderation by definition. By your charter there's nothing to moderate. Just calling out shoddy behaviour, not trying to moderate. Anyway I'll leave it there. This post will probably somehow get me a card as it is.

GreeBo

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It's not against your charter so there's no point in reporting it and, as a result, it can't be backseat moderation by definition. By your charter there's nothing to moderate. Just calling out shoddy behaviour, not trying to moderate. Anyway I'll leave it there. This post will probably somehow get me a card as it is.

Indeed it will.

Yellow Card for breach of *our* forum charter; "Do not argue with a mod on thread, take it to PM or feedback".

Backseat moderation is a breach of every forum charter on boards.ie; thats why its listed as one of the options for carding and banning people.

Redzah

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It's not against your charter so there's no point in reporting it and, as a result, it can't be backseat moderation by definition. By your charter there's nothing to moderate. Just calling out shoddy behaviour, not trying to moderate. Anyway I'll leave it there. This post will probably somehow get me a card as it is.

:D:D Prophetic

Corkblowin

Redzah wrote: »

Well then let them not renew as they are not the type you want in your club anyway. Why?

1. Because they would not contribute to interclub golf
2. If they would leave because of this then their love of the game and a club atmosphere is questionable.
3. They would appear not to possess the mentality of bettering their game or focus to compete like the majority of other members of a club.
4. I'm sure a change over divisional (i.e. they have separate comps) period would occur and if this doesn't satisfy them, well then again their awkward bollixs who don't want to better themselves.

Very very very harsh.........

Not everyone in a golf club has the time, ability or inclination to become a 'good' golfer whatever that is. Some people just love the game, and the friendships, craic, and enjoyment they get from it.

My boss has a regular midweek 4-ball, all of them over 50. He's off 26 and has never had 36 points in his life (had 33 earlier this year and is still talking about it). His buddies are 22, 23 and the best of them is off 19. They also play a lot of weekend comps.

When one can't make it they occasionally ask me to step in. Those games are the most fun I have on a golf course. They don't care that they're taking 8's at a hole - as long as the others take 9! They are competitive at their own level and have great matches. The high-fives when a par or birdie are scored are like the end of a Ryder cup. I love playing with them because they show me that golf is to be enjoyed as much as played and the slagging and teasing that goes on when theres a putt to win a hole is something to behold. My attitude on the course is always better after a game with them.

Now if these guys were cut to 18 would they give up? Maybe.....because its a signal that they're not wanted. They could continue to have their matches and give each other shots, but weekend comps would be out so why be a member?

While I don't know you, I'd wager you don't have as much fun on the course as these guys - you're obviously a good golfer - but I think you've lost sight of what sport is about.

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Seriously, this thread is about capping handicaps at 18, there is next to no discussion focusing on initial handicaps.

Ssbob got the options right first time around.
The OP confirmed that.

You've went off on a curve ball and thrown in initial handicaps.
Initial handicaps is a whole different topic.
The addition of the fourth option skews things.
I would be in favour of an initial of 18 as long as there was a quick review but I think a cap of 18 is ridiculous.

The fourth option should be deleted, I know it's your view, but it's not the topic we are discussing.

Put it this way, if you believe in an overall cap of 18, then why is there even a need to say that initial handicaps should be capped at 18.... that should go without saying doesn't it.

At present I would vote 2 and 4....if 4 was on topic and there was a multiple vote option.

Sorry Aj but if you go back to post #5 (2 days ago) you will see that my very first post on the topic was about initial handicaps.

In any case, Im pretty sure I know what point it is I stand for!

/edit
How can you stand for 2 and 4? 2 means change nothing, 4 means change the initial maximum?!

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

:D:D Prophetic

Dont comment on moderator decisions on thread please....

FixdePitchmark

Sadly GreeBo's days are up.

All his tricks have been badly exposed in this thread.

GreeBo

Ben1977 wrote: »

Why no give them the HC they require in the first place?

You can't generalise how anyone will or anyone should approach golf or how to play golf. Its not for anyone to suggest.

I think the index of a hole and the fact that handicaps are calculated based on the stableford score for each hole itself "suggests" how the game of handicapped golf is supposed to be played.

Corkblowin wrote: »

Very very very harsh.........

Not everyone in a golf club has the time, ability or inclination to become a 'good' golfer whatever that is. Some people just love the game, and the friendships, craic, and enjoyment they get from it.

My boss has a regular midweek 4-ball, all of them over 50. He's off 26 and has never had 36 points in his life (had 33 earlier this year and is still talking about it). His buddies are 22, 23 and the best of them is off 19. They also play a lot of weekend comps.

When one can't make it they occasionally ask me to step in. Those games are the most fun I have on a golf course. They don't care that they're taking 8's at a hole - as long as the others take 9! They are competitive at their own level and have great matches. The high-fives when a par or birdie are scored are like the end of a Ryder cup. I love playing with them because they show me that golf is to be enjoyed as much as played and the slagging and teasing that goes on when theres a putt to win a hole is something to behold. My attitude on the course is always better after a game with them.

Now if these guys were cut to 18 would they give up? Maybe.....because its a signal that they're not wanted. They could continue to have their matches and give each other shots, but weekend comps would be out so why be a member?

While I don't know you, I'd wager you don't have as much fun on the course as these guys - you're obviously a good golfer - but I think you've lost sight of what sport is about.

While I would agree that Redzahs opinion is a little harsh I would also disagree with yours.

If someone is capable of having a birdie then I think 18 is a perfectly good handicap for them.
They are out there it have fun against each other and not against the field, so what difference would it make if they were all given 18 as initial handicaps?
They are not playing "competitive" against the rest of the field golf, its effectively causal golf albeit played during a competition. I have no problem with that but I dont think the same, single handicap system can equally and fairly account for their play and for Redzahs play at the same time, do you?

I also disagree that it means they are not wanted.

Wichita Lineman

My young teenager plays off 28 and while he has played a couple of years now he is still very much a beginner. If the OP had his way and the maximum handicap was 18 my young lad wouldnt bother playing as he wouldnt be scoring enough to make it interesting at his level / age.

Golf needs to do everything it can to hold on to new players and we shouldnt be in any way considering doing anything that would be detrimental to encouraging people to take the game up.

He has started to play in competitions alongside me now and I have no doubt that one of these days he will turn in a big score and his handicap will be slashed accordingly but until that time comes he needs every shot he can get.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry Aj but if you go back to post #5 (2 days ago) you will see that my very first post on the topic was about initial handicaps.

In any case, Im pretty sure I know what point it is I stand for!

No need to apologise Greebo, but if you go back to...lets see...post #1 from the OP you will see it's about a having maximum HC of 18 for all.

Redzah wrote: »

Having watched many players over the last few years win captains prizes off handicaps of 22/24 etc., i feel that there should be a maximum handicap set for individuals of a certain demographic and physicality.

The vast majority of this thread is about this, there is very little mention of initial handicaps.
I would have thought that the "Handicap setting when joining a club" thread that was active up until 4 days ago would have been a place for you to discuss initial handicaps if that is what you claim to be discussing.
Maybe you could add a poll there?

Included link to thread below for your convenience

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86755359

Corkblowin

GreeBo wrote: »

While I would agree that Redzahs opinion is a little harsh I would also disagree with yours.

If someone is capable of having a birdie then I think 18 is a perfectly good handicap for them.
They are out there it have fun against each other and not against the field, so what difference would it make if they were all given 18 as initial handicaps?
They are not playing "competitive" against the rest of the field golf, its effectively causal golf albeit played during a competition. I have no problem with that but I dont think the same, single handicap system can equally and fairly account for their play and for Redzahs play at the same time, do you?

I also disagree that it means they are not wanted.

Because of the possibilities!!! They do play weekend comps too (not necessarily together) and we've all stood on the first tee and know feeling, the anticipation that today could be the day....the day when it all comes right! The day when is comes good and they beat Redzah(for example)! Can you imagine the buzz for someone like that? They managed to beat one of the best players at the club in competition.

And then the system kicks in and they are cut to shreds. Unlike Redzah they won't be in contention again for a loooong time.... but on that day they did it.

Cut 8 shots from my boss (or 5 from his buddy) and that feeling is gone for them. Golf clubs are not about the top 10% of players - they are about the 90% who make it what it is.

GreeBo

Andy Dunne11 wrote: »

My young teenager plays off 28 and while he has played a couple of years now he is still very much a beginner. If the OP had his way and the maximum handicap was 18 my young lad wouldnt bother playing as he wouldnt be scoring enough to make it interesting at his level / age.

Golf needs to do everything it can to hold on to new players and we shouldnt be in any way considering doing anything that would be detrimental to encouraging people to take the game up.

He has started to play in competitions alongside me now and I have no doubt that one of these days he will turn in a big score and his handicap will be slashed accordingly but until that time comes he needs every shot he can get.

Would he not get just as much fun from playing against the other kids at his same level though?
Anyway, I wouldnt be in favour of doing anything to juvenile/junior handicaps until they are playing in the exact same comps as everyone else, its like starting 8 year olds out on full size rugby pitches or snooker tables, does more harm than good imo.

GreeBo

Corkblowin wrote: »

Because of the possibilities!!! They do play weekend comps too (not necessarily together) and we've all stood on the first tee and know feeling, the anticipation that today could be the day....the day when it all comes right! The day when is comes good and they beat Redzah(for example)! Can you imagine the buzz for someone like that? They managed to beat one of the best players at the club in competition.

And then the system kicks in and they are cut to shreds. Unlike Redzah they won't be in contention again for a loooong time.... but on that day they did it.

Cut 8 shots from my boss (or 5 from his buddy) and that feeling is gone for them. Golf clubs are not about the top 10% of players - they are about the 90% who make it what it is.

Surely clubs are about the 100% of members equally?

They still have that chance of beating him off 18 though....its far easier for them to be 5 under than it is for redzah. They need 5 pars and no other disasters...he needs to have 3 birdies and everything else pars!
sure its "easier" for him to have birdies than your friends but its not *that* much easier.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

I think the index of a hole and the fact that handicaps are calculated based on the stableford score for each hole itself "suggests" how the game of handicapped golf is supposed to be played.



While I would agree that Redzahs opinion is a little harsh I would also disagree with yours.

If someone is capable of having a birdie then I think 18 is a perfectly good handicap for them.
They are out there it have fun against each other and not against the field, so what difference would it make if they were all given 18 as initial handicaps?
They are not playing "competitive" against the rest of the field golf, its effectively causal golf albeit played during a competition. I have no problem with that but I dont think the same, single handicap system can equally and fairly account for their play and for Redzahs play at the same time, do you?

I also disagree that it means they are not wanted.

Agreed, in my opinion, there is a clear difference between competitive golf and casual golf. Also there is a clear difference between the 'fun' definition that has been thrown around a bit. I have 2 forms of golf in my life, competitive golf where the fun is maintaining focus to have a good score, the fun here is that there is still banter with playing partners/competitors and the fun/satisfaction of a good round. The other fun i have is team of 4 events or social rounds with friends, these are fun as it is a case of letting loose more and in certain clubs where a drinks trolley is available having a couple of pints/cans on the way around, its a great laff.

I have no problem whatsoever with these guys enjoying their fun round against each other. My problem is derived from what i perceive to be excessive shots that the have and the fact that for them there is a grey area/intertwining of what i perceive to be a clear distinction of the above.

My opinion is on the harsh end as the other user mentioned but, to use an example, it is like a salary cut back or removal of overtime, people threaten to leave (when in reality very few do), suck it up during a transitional period after which its forgetten that this option (of being over 18 handicap or have claiming overtime) ever existed.

People move on and adapt, people threaten if they don't like certain things but when push comes to shove, very few act as they firstly have to look themselves in the mirror and say is this the right thing for me to do, in my opinion when this last part happens, those individuals who we all want in the game will stay and adapt, those individuals who leave, then it is clear what my opinions on those are.

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

No need to apologise Greebo, but if you go back to...lets see...post #1 from the OP you will see it's about a having maximum HC of 18 for all.



The vast majority of this thread is about this, there is very little mention of initial handicaps.
I would have thought that the "Handicap setting when joining a club" thread that was active up until 4 days ago would have been a place for you to discuss initial handicaps if that is what you claim to be discussing.
Maybe you could add a poll there?

Included link to thread below for your convenience

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86755359

Do you think its adding or removing from the result by having the 4th option there?
Surely the more options there are the more we learn about what people think on the subject?
Unless of course you are just interested in a "prove GreeBo wrong" witchhunt...

m r c

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you think its adding or removing from the result by having the 4th option there?
Surely the more options there are the more we learn about what people think on the subject?
Unless of course you are just interested in a "prove GreeBo wrong" witchhunt...

Aj is not the one on the witchhunt, at least that's clear.

m r c

So far the poll is pretty clear lads.

Wichita Lineman

He plays with lads his own level too Greebo but there is no reason on this earth why I should not take him out with me, enter him in competitions and let him get on with it. In fairness he doesnt finish last!

Thats what the handicap system is all about. Whiloe it's not all about winning prizes it has to be considered that if it's used fairly it's supposed to mean a guy on 24 has just as good a chance at the prizes as a scratch golfer does.

Capping it at 18 in an effort to stop a bandit or two winning a Captains Prize is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's not needed.

*By the way it's not a junior handicap, it's a full GUI handicap.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

Would he not get just as much fun from playing against the other kids at his same level though?
Anyway, I wouldnt be in favour of doing anything to juvenile/junior handicaps until they are playing in the exact same comps as everyone else, its like starting 8 year olds out on full size rugby pitches or snooker tables, does more harm than good imo.

Agreed fully with this. I think juniors should have a higher starting handicap with an automatic transition to 18 once the reach the age of 18.

Corkblowin

GreeBo wrote: »

They still have that chance of beating him off 18 though....its far easier for them to be 5 under than it is for redzah. They need 5 pars and no other disasters....

Best score ever is 33 points off 26 but cut him to 18 and he still has a chance???........ I don't think you play with many h/c's.

Most likely scenario is he gives up weekend comps. Then asks himself why am I paying a sub. So gives up membership and pays green-fees once a week to play with the pals. In fact if they all do it they can play different courses every week. Potential disaster for clubs. All because someone decided they should 'try harder'. The handicap system, applied properly, works just fine. Like I said above;

Corkblowin wrote: »

If an 18+ handicapper is playing competitions regularly and their scores do not deserve a cut then they have the correct handicap

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

Agreed fully with this. I think juniors should have a higher starting handicap with an automatic transition to 18 once the reach the age of 18.

Why once they reach 18 years of age?
Did I miss some magical event where golfing ability was bestowed onto everyone else?!

I think give an initial handicap of 18 or less when you are playing against everyone else who started at 18 or less.

Wichita Lineman

Redzah, if a kid is playing to his handicap of 23 at the age of 17 do you really think it would be fair to adjust his handicap by 5 shots just because he turns 18.

Think about it. Doesnt make sense.

What if some lad born in January plays with 3 mates who are born in December. They all play off 23 but the first bguy gets done for 5 shots 11 months before his fellow players do because he turns 18 ahead of them. Ridiculous idea.

GreeBo

Corkblowin wrote: »

Best score ever is 33 points off 26 but cut him to 18 and he still has a chance???........ I don't think you play with may h/c's.

Most likely scenario is he gives up weekend comps. Then asks himself why am I paying a sub. So gives up membership and pays green-fees once a week to play with the pals. In fact if they all do it they can play different courses every week. Potential disaster for clubs. All because someone decided they should 'try harder'. The handicap system, applied properly, works just fine. Like I said above;

I play with lots of high handicaps, 20+ at least once a month.

This guys isnt playing weekend comps...he is playing with his mates on the weekend during competition time. Thats the point.

GreeBo

Andy Dunne11 wrote: »

He plays with lads his own level too Greebo but there is no reason on this earth why I should not take him out with me, enter him in competitions and let him get on with it. In fairness he doesnt finish last!

Thats what the handicap system is all about. Whiloe it's not all about winning prizes it has to be considered that if it's used fairly it's supposed to mean a guy on 24 has just as good a chance at the prizes as a scratch golfer does.

Capping it at 18 in an effort to stop a bandit or two winning a Captains Prize is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's not needed.

*By the way it's not a junior handicap, it's a full GUI handicap.

I have no problem with you bringing him out with you at all, its great experience for him and the more he plays the better.

I just think he should be learning how to play to his handicap, i.e. play better golf rather than just out having fun yet still trying to play to his handicap.
Either you are out for fun golf or you are playing competitive golf.
You can have fun playing competitive golf, I do it every week, but its not the same fun as casual golf, so shouldnt be governed by the same system.

GreeBo

m r c wrote: »

Aj is not the one on the witchhunt, at least that's clear.

Im sorry, what?
Who are you implying is on a witchhunt so?

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

Why once they reach 18 years of age?
Did I miss some magical event where golfing ability was bestowed onto everyone else?!

I think give an initial handicap of 18 or less when you are playing against everyone else who started at 18 or less.

My own view would be that at this age the individual on average would be fully developed physically and mentally and thus would not have to deal with all the other variables that they would have prior to this (quick growth spurts, maturity or lack thereof, puberty etc)

Corkblowin

GreeBo wrote: »

This guys isnt playing weekend comps...he is playing with his mates on the weekend during competition time. Thats the point.

I said they play weekend comps as well......and not necessarily with each other. The messing only happens during their midweek game. They try just as hard to win the weekend stableford as anyone else - they just aren't good enough.

In fact, now that I think about it - the 3 higher lads never play in the medals - strokes off the back tees are out of their league. So no golf those weekends. Cut them to 18, I reckon the same would happen.

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

My own view would be that at this age the individual on average would be fully developed physically and mentally and thus would not have to deal with all the other variables that they would have prior to this (quick growth spurts, maturity or lack thereof, puberty etc)

I would have to disagree...your handicap should always be based on your golfing ability/potential. The only reason it should be increased is because of a lack of ability or a physical impairment (being too young, too old or a disability)

Wichita Lineman

Redzah wrote: »

My own view would be that at this age the individual on average would be fully developed physically and mentally and thus would not have to deal with all the other variables that they would have prior to this (quick growth spurts, maturity or lack thereof, puberty etc)

I'm sorry but this is unbelievable twaddle. Not a personal attack by any means Redzah, I respect your right to have an opinion, I just disagree TOTALLY with your opinion.

Redzah

Andy Dunne11 wrote: »

Redzah, if a kid is playing to his handicap of 23 at the age of 17 do you really think it would be fair to adjust his handicap by 5 shots just because he turns 18.

Think about it. Doesnt make sense.

What if some lad born in January plays with 3 mates who are born in December. They all play off 23 but the first bguy gets done for 5 shots 11 months before his fellow players do because he turns 18 ahead of them. Ridiculous idea.

Yes I think this is the best idea, it would obviously not be an exact day, it would be when he graduates from a junior to intermediate member and thus all these mates should 'get done' at the same time akin to a transfer from junior to intermediate the calendar year (or the year after the calendar year) when you turn 18. As greebo said, like starting young fellas off on smaller pitches in other sports. I don't believe that it is ridiculous as you suggested.

Furthermore, I believe this juvenile point is sidetracking the initial discussion as my discussion was around able bodied members and i referenced a healthy, fit individual winning the captains prize. This implies a ruling out of junior members as they are not eligable and thus would be in my opinion an off topic and separate discussion

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you think its adding or removing from the result by having the 4th option there?

It is removing from the poll.
I'll repeat my point again.
In the context of this debate(Max HC of 18 for anyone), I do not feel that the System needs to be changed (Option 2).
If we are going to bring initial handicaps into it, then my thinking would be that, an initial cap of 18 would be a decent idea, on the proviso that they don't leave people hanging on 18 for too long if they show form of being a lot higher than that.
So I would vote for Option 4 if it was relevant.

In the context of this debate, the system does not need to change.
Outside of this debate, the system may need changing.

Can you not see the conflict there?

GreeBo wrote: »

Surely the more options there are the more we learn about what people think on the subject?

Only if the options make sense, see above.

GreeBo wrote: »

Unless of course you are just interested in a "prove GreeBo wrong" witchhunt...

Wow, what about the old chestnut of you wanting to be treated as a poster, a rigorous one that likes to debate...
Is it a double standard for me?
Can I not debate this with you without you accusing me of being on a "witch-hunt"
If Greebo wants to insist on proving his theory is right, what problem do you have with me trying to prove you wrong.

That's a mighty fine cake you have there, how's it going down?

Wichita Lineman

There's been a lot more off topic than me Redzah thats for sure.

So to be clear my opinion on your original question about a capping to 18 as the maximum I firmly believe that the handicap system should stay as it is.

In fact if you asked should it be increased from 28 i'd be more in favour of that than a reduced maximum handicap.

Redzah

m r c wrote: »

So far the poll is pretty clear lads.

Would it be fair to say that the poll is clear due to the demographics of voters?

i.e. the fun loving scrubbers who can't comprehend that they could score better if they smarten up a bit

versus

the non-scrubbers who know the basics of competitive golf

Couldn't resist

Wichita Lineman

Redzah wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that the poll is clear due to the demographics of voters?

i.e. the fun loving scrubbers who can't comprehend that they could score better if they smarten up a bit

versus

the non-scrubbers who know the basics of competitive golf

Couldn't resist

Thats uncalled for :mad:

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

It is removing from the poll.
I'll repeat my point again.
In the context of this debate(Max HC of 18 for anyone), I do not feel that the System needs to be changed (Option 2).
If we are going to bring initial handicaps into it, then my thinking would be that, an initial cap of 18 would be a decent idea, on the proviso that they don't leave people hanging on 18 for too long if they show form of being a lot higher than that.
So I would vote for Option 4 if it was relevant.

In the context of this debate, the system does not need to change.
Outside of this debate, the system may need changing.

Can you not see the conflict there?



Only if the options make sense, see above.



Wow, what about the old chestnut of you wanting to be treated as a poster, a rigorous one that likes to debate...
Is it a double standard for me?
Can I not debate this with you without you accusing me of being on a "witch-hunt"
If Greebo wants to insist on proving his theory is right, what problem do you have with me trying to prove you wrong.

That's a mighty fine cake you have there, how's it going down?

I guess I dont see option 4 as outside of this debate, as I've been arguing it in this debate for over 2 days!

Its delicious, a little dry though.

Redzah

Andy Dunne11 wrote: »

I'm sorry but this is unbelievable twaddle. Not a personal attack by any means Redzah, I respect your right to have an opinion, I just disagree TOTALLY with your opinion.

I respect that you have an opinion but why do all other sports have modifications of a senior game for juniors? is it not to allow for a developing individual both physically and mentally