Amanda Knox retrial begins

seamus

If it even gets as far as an extradition hearing in the US, no US court will find the conviction safe enough to grant extradition. The changes of mind, the bizarre evidence presented by the prosecution and their flimsy case. It wouldn't fly in most other western countries.

The Italian court system is widely regarded among the rest of the western world as a bit of a joke. Corruption is rife, and judges and juries are known to give more gravitas to the emotion and fervour of a lawyer rather than the bare facts he has presented.

This is the same court system which found scientists guilty of manslaughter for failing to predict an earthquake. If this was Germany, the UK or France, then I'd be inclined to assume the trial was run fairly and with minimal bias. But it's Italy. I automatically assume everyone involved was incompetent or on the take, or both. And having read the details way back after the first two trials, I can't see any good logical reason to find this woman guilty.

AndonHandon

gctest50 wrote: »

Would you like to post the proof you have of this ?

It's all over the news.

Merkin

She's being interviewed (an old interview) on Newsnight right now

MonaPizza

Holsten wrote: »

What's the point?

She is not there and will never set foot near Italy again.

Kinda like the CIA men convicted in abstentia of abductions in Italy and the killers of Nicola Calipari not to mention the guys who whacked Mazen Dana. But then again the Americans demand Snowden be extradited. It's lost on them that there isn't an extradition treaty between Russia and the US yet they refuse to honour one that DOES exist between the US and Italy. And refuse to hand over Jose Posidilla, the terrorist who blew up a Cuban airliner.

They wouldn't even hand over the frequent South Korea-stationed GI who rapes or beats some local to death.

Sad saps

123 LC

She has been given 28 years....

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/amanda-knox-sentenced-to-28-years-6-months-for-murder-for-meredith-kercher-29965961.html

She claimed she couldn't afford to travel to Italy yet her relatives could.... :P

I always felt like she was guilty, I don't know why, it was just a feeling, still not positive though..

Mr.Micro

123 LC wrote: »

She has been given 28 years....

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/amanda-knox-sentenced-to-28-years-6-months-for-murder-for-meredith-kercher-29965961.html

She claimed she couldn't afford to travel to Italy yet her relatives could.... :P

I always felt like she was guilty, I don't know why, it was just a feeling, still not positive though..

She will have to edit the last chapters of her book now and put guilty, or wait until an appeal to the Supreme Court in Italy, the poor dear. Too cowardly to face the music, if she believed she is innocent. I am happy for the poor family of Meredith that some conclusion may soon be reached, after a final appeal probably. She ruined at least 2 peoples lives, one fatally and the other the bar owner.

Panthro

I read this bit 'Italy's highest criminal court, the Court of Cassation' and thought it said 'castration' for a second.
I was all :eek::eek::eek:

:pac:

A Primal Nut

Really feel sorry for Sollecito.Will he really go back to prison?: (

I have nothing against the Italian legal system but this case is really bizarre.

The main prosecution evidence was that a kitchen knife found in the kitchen drawer had a tiny amount of Meredith's DNA on it. So they murdered Meredith in this sex crazed game, then washed the knife and put it back in the kitchen drawer? Completely ridiculous, even more so because the prosecution portrayed Amanda and Raffaelle as intelligent killers.

Speaking of DNA Guedes DNA was found all over the room but the only significant DNA belonging to Amanda and Raffaele was on a bra strap. The prosecution alleged they cleaned up their own DNA without removing Guedes DNA. Again, completely rediculous. It's simply not possible.

If they managed it then they are geniuses. Apparently they were also clever enough to turn off their phones during the deed. Yet they were not clever enough to even attempt to dispose of the murder weapon or ask for a lawyer when first questioned.

DNA transfer is normal. Chances are a search of your house could bring up traces from your work colleagues who never visited, because they were in contact with you before you went home. The traces of DNA are what you would expect to find for housemates and their boyfriends.

DNA is useful in finding who owns blood, fences, sperm, body parts etc. Or for ruling people out if their dna is not found at the scene. Which is what should have happened in this case. They had a violent sex crazed game yet no significant dna belonging to them was found at the scene. That's them ruled out straight away.

The police took Amandas clothes for evidence. She they went to buy new underwear as she didn't have any left. The media said this showed she didn't care enough so she must be guilty. This is one of the main reasons she became a suspect in the first place. It's worrying how people and even police are so easily manipulated by the media.

This is why you read so many things like this in relation to the case:

123 LC wrote: »

I always felt like she was guilty, I don't know why, it was just a feeling, still not positive though..

Too many people forming an opinion because of the way the media portrays her, rather than looking at actual facts.

A Primal Nut

Mr.Micro wrote: »

She will have to edit the last chapters of her book now and put guilty, or wait until an appeal to the Supreme Court in Italy, the poor dear. Too cowardly to face the music, if she believed she is innocent. I am happy for the poor family of Meredith that some conclusion may soon be reached, after a final appeal probably. She ruined at least 2 peoples lives, one fatally and the other the bar owner.

Too cowardly to go to prison for 26 years for a crime she didn't commit? You have to be joking.

Mr.Micro

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Too cowardly to go to prison for 26 years for a crime she didn't commit? You have to be joking.

She has been found guilty.....twice now. A court of law says so. She did not help her case with her lies and deceit.

Busted Flat.

Just a question, is there not an extradition agreement with the EU and the US. Could cause a lot of problems for the future in cases like this.

A Primal Nut

Mr.Micro wrote: »

She has been found guilty.....twice now. A court of law says so. She did not help her case with her lies and deceit.

Unfortunately many innocent people have been convicted all over the world. Nothing unusual there.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/

Most often they are convinced by the police to confess under duress and also change their story. Police have lots of strategies to convince them under the guise that its best for them. This is why defence lawyers tell their clients to stay silent until they arrive. Confessions and changes in story are then used against them in court in the absence of real evidence (eyewitnesses, body fluids, motive, CCTV, mobile phone records, etc). It all sounds very familiar to Sollecito & Knox.

In about 25% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php

Police depend on confessions and story changes (portrayed as lies) in the absence of real evidence.

Mr.Micro

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Just a question, is there not an extradition agreement with the EU and the US. Could cause a lot of problems for the future in cases like this.

I believe there is, but the US would have to agree to a request. Even if it did, knox could fight it legally for years. Nothing will happen, if at all, until an appeal to the Italian Supreme Court IMO.

Amazingfun

Ryan Ferguson, a man who was also convicted of a crime he didn't commit, is supporting Amanda and is speaking out publicly about her plight.
It's pretty cool seeing he only exited prison himself very recently:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/amanda-knox-confides-ryan-ferguson-22257127

You can see his story on 48 hours, unbelievable how long it took to get him out, and if it weren't for his father's undying devotion, he may never have. Same thing with Amanda really, her family went into massive debt just to pay all the fees and travels expenses --and thank God they did.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ryan-fergusons-fight-for-freedom/

Jonkenji

I think the real question here lads is. ..

Would ya?

Manach

Read a book last year on crime law and statistics. A chapter was on the Knox case - how the DNA was gathered and the statistical inferences draw. In summary, the authors were unimpressed by either the DNA collection and the likelihood that Knox was actually linked to the murder weapon. So as the amount of evidence needed to convict in criminal cases is beyond a reasonable doubt - so I'm rather surprised on this verdict.

Busted Flat.

A young girl died with her throat cut, that is where the sympathy lies. What the others may say to try and stay out of jail is unimportant. The evidence shows there were all there at the time.

Amazingfun

Busted Flat. wrote: »

A young girl died with her throat cut, that is where the sympathy lies. What the others may say to try and stay out of jail is unimportant. The evidence shows there were all there at the time.

Yes, and the murderer is in prison, his name is Rudy Guede.

Unreal how many seem to forget this.

FatherTed

She won't be extradited simply because of the fifth amendment to the US constitution which effectively it says you cannot be tried twice.

A Primal Nut

Busted Flat. wrote: »

A young girl died with her throat cut, that is where the sympathy lies. What the others may say to try and stay out of jail is unimportant. The evidence shows there were all there at the time.

There is no evidence that they were there. You would expect their DNA to be all over the room (like Rudy Guede) but it wasn't.

A Primal Nut

If you believe the prosecution story that Knox/Sollecito are guilty then you believe that they grabbed a random kitchen knife, used it to threaten Meredith and forced her to engage in a sex game, stabbed her repeatedly, then they cleaned the knife thoroughly, of almost all evidence, and then after all that, popped it back in the kitchen drawer. And left it there even after they were suspects.

Yet they portrayed as criminal masterminds by the prosecution.

That was the key evidence.

Just remembered as well about the most important witness for the prosecution, Rudy Guede, who's story completed contradicted the prosecution's case (apart from the point that Amanda and an unknown guy were there) yet they still went ahead and put him on the stand and his evidence was taken into account. It's laughable.

ebbsy

Guilty Not Guilty Guilty

I would say the next appeal will be........not guilty.

Should have worked in the legal profession.

the_monkey

I read the article by that forensics guy finally, beginning to change my mind on this ...

tigger123

Am kinda shocked the Italian Justice system isn't willing to just let this go at this stage, and that they're continuing to flogg a dead horse. The whole case is pretty embarrassing for them.

She'll never be extradited, the US wouldn't send one of their citizens down the swanny like that. They're right too, the whole case is absurd.

vicwatson

Spare a thought for Meredith's family. It's a living nightmare for them, the horror never goes away.

martingriff

FatherTed wrote: »

She won't be extradited simply because of the fifth amendment to the US constitution which effectively it says you cannot be tried twice.

You are forgetting the trial is in Italy and it is there laws that are used. It would be like if an american was in trial here for murder we would use our laws.

I am not saying they will let her go

Merkin

vicwatson wrote: »

Spare a thought for Meredith's family. It's a living nightmare for them, the horror never goes away.

It's so sad that her actual death has always been so secondary to all of this.

ebbsy

No chance she will be sent back.

humanji

martingriff wrote: »

You are forgetting the trial is in Italy and it is there laws that are used. It would be like if an american was in trial here for murder we would use our laws.

I am not saying they will let her go

But I think it's the US laws that are taken into account when extradition is being considered. It'd be against their own constitution for her to be put on trial twice and that's all that would be considered, I'd say. Also, it's been a shame of a case, so it would be sheer madness for US authorities to even consider extradition.

bumper234

Kercher 'Killer' Sollecito 'Stopped At Border'

http://news.sky.com/story/1204143/kercher-killer-sollecito-stopped-at-border

Raffaele Sollecito, the man re-convicted of Meredith Kercher's murder, has reportedly been stopped by police at Italy's border with Slovenia.

Merkin

humanji wrote: »

But I think it's the US laws that are taken into account when extradition is being considered. It'd be against their own constitution for her to be put on trial twice and that's all that would be considered, I'd say. Also, it's been a shame of a case, so it would be sheer madness for US authorities to even consider extradition.

The Fifth Amendment permits one to avoid self-incrimination.

In most countries you can be tried after an acquittal, in Ireland for example, and also in the UK.

I think the reasons to avoid extradition will be political and not legal...

seamus

martingriff wrote: »

You are forgetting the trial is in Italy and it is there laws that are used. It would be like if an american was in trial here for murder we would use our laws.

I am not saying they will let her go

An application for extradition usually looks at the concept of dual criminality. i.e. "If this act had been committed here rather than there, would the outcome of the law be similar?"

For example, if you were convicted of adultery in Abu Dhabi, you could not be extradited from Ireland, because adultery is not a crime in Ireland.

This concept typically extends to the conduct of the case and extent of the punishment. So if you were sentenced to death in the US, you won't be extradited from Ireland unless your sentence is commuted to life. Likewise, if you can raise significant concerns about how the case was conducted (e.g. juryless or behind closed doors) or the overall safety of the conviction, that too can block extradition.

So Knox could very much use the defence of double jeopardy to fight extradition from the US.

Frank Black

It's good to see that the Italian justice system has been found guilty of being completely ridiculous.

There's no way the US will let one of its citizens be extradited to such a judicially incompetent country - no when so many doubts exist about the strength of her (new and latest) 'conviction'.

lukin

This will drag on for years and Knox will almost certainly never serve a day in prison. She will have to be careful what countries she visits as if she goes somewhere that has an extradition agreement with Italy she could be arrested and sent back to Italy (I think something this happened with Agusto Pinochet but he got off in the end).
I can't believe Sollecito didn't leave the country before the verdict was announced.

Sunglasses Ron

I find it hilariously ironic that the US, which has in the last 13 years routinely engaged in kidnapping of suspects (including one from Italy), paying off African police to simply throw suspects on a plane rather than go through due extradition process, outsourced interrogation to 3rd world states to relieve themselves of activity that is considered human rights abuse if the one doing it is North Korean or Iranian, and took it upon itself to land its troops in an allied country and shoot a suspect dead in his bedroom without giving a clear answer as to how it was all legally done (not to mention carrying out a corpse kidnapping and improper body disposal) , is talking about dragging its heels on extraditing a woman found guilty in a court system that while probably not perfect is relatively accepted by the international community :pac: If Knox turned up in Italy next week after having been snatched, drugged, smuggled to Mexico and flown out by Italian special forces you can be sure they would be complaining without the slightest hint of irony.


*: Note I actually couldn't give two **** about the US violating the human rights and due process of Al Quaeda members. Regardless though I just find the hypocrisy hilarious

Pepe LeFrits

lukin wrote: »

I can't believe Sollecito didn't leave the country before the verdict was announced.

In fairness, Italy is his home and based on the evidence of the case it's understandable that he'd be confident of being exonerated.

The more I read about the case, the more I'm amazed that they've overturned the verdict.

Merkin

seamus wrote: »

So Knox could very much use the defence of double jeopardy to fight extradition from the US.

I don't agree - no judgment in Italy is final until it's final, until then it is necessarily an interim judgment so I don't see that it really offends the rule of double jeopardy at all tbh.

martingriff

seamus wrote: »

An application for extradition usually looks at the concept of dual criminality. i.e. "If this act had been committed here rather than there, would the outcome of the law be similar?"

For example, if you were convicted of adultery in Abu Dhabi, you could not be extradited from Ireland, because adultery is not a crime in Ireland.

This concept typically extends to the conduct of the case and extent of the punishment. So if you were sentenced to death in the US, you won't be extradited from Ireland unless your sentence is commuted to life. Likewise, if you can raise significant concerns about how the case was conducted (e.g. juryless or behind closed doors) or the overall safety of the conviction, that too can block extradition.

So Knox could very much use the defence of double jeopardy to fight extradition from the US.

Cool thanks for that I stand corrected

Merkin

10.05 Sollecito was picked up by police at around 1am at a hotel in Venzone, which is around 25 miles from the border with Austria and Slovenia. He was staying in the hotel with his current girlfriend. The cabinet chief of the Udine police station, Giovanni Belmonte, said police took him to the Udine police station, took his passport and put a stamp in his Italian identity papers showing that he cannot leave the country. He will be freed later, Belmonte said.

BQQ

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Speaking of DNA Guedes DNA was found all over the room but the only significant DNA belonging to Amanda and Raffaele was on a bra strap.

Remarkable, considering she lived in the apartment.
Her DNA should be everywhere.

The only ones furnished with the full facts were the juries and they came to a guilty verdict. Twice.
The idea that they are conspiring to put innocent people in prison is laughable.
The idea that the italian police are trying to frame people when they already have someone in prison is laughable.

Believe it or not, Italians are intelligent, civilised people (just like us).

lukin

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

In fairness, Italy is his home and based on the evidence of the case it's understandable that he'd be confident of being exonerated.

The more I read about the case, the more I'm amazed that they've overturned the verdict.

How wrong he was.

ebbsy

Maybe they are going have a best of 5.

2-1 to the guilty so far.

Pepe LeFrits

BQQ wrote: »

Remarkable, considering she lived in the apartment.
Her DNA should be everywhere.

The only ones furnished with the full facts were the juries and they came to a guilty verdict. Twice.
The idea that they are conspiring to put innocent people in prison is laughable.
The idea that the italian police are trying to frame people when they already have someone in prison is laughable.

Believe it or not, Italians are intelligent, civilised people (just like us).

Ah, the argument from authority.

They also found them innocent.

The police denied Amanda Knox (a legally mandated) lawyer for 5 days of interrogation. They are clearly not above suspicion.

bumper234

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Ah, the argument from authority.

They also found them innocent.

The police denied Amanda Knox (a legally mandated) lawyer for 5 days of interrogation. They are clearly not above suspicion.

Because this doesn't happen in any other country :rolleyes:

BQQ

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Ah, the argument from authority.

They also found them innocent.

The police denied Amanda Knox (a legally mandated) lawyer for 5 days of interrogation. They are clearly not above suspicion.

Ah, the ad hominem attack.
And based on a false premise, I might add.


Verdict was overturned due to the following:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/30/world/europe/italy-amanda-knox-retrial/

Italy's Supreme Court in March overturned the pair's acquittals, saying that the jury did not consider all the evidence and that discrepancies in testimony needed to be answered.

More technicality than proof of innocence, it would seem.
Those issues were no doubt addressed during the new appeal and what was the verdict? Guilty.

A Primal Nut

lukin wrote: »

This will drag on for years and Knox will almost certainly never serve a day in prison.

She already served four years.

humanji

Here's an interesting article about the Italian legal system: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/27/us-italy-knox-law-idUSBRE92Q0ZO20130327

It's widely known that it's an incredibly flawed system that's open for abuse. Knox's innocence or guilt seems to be secondary to the various legal departments trying to save face.

tigger123

humanji wrote: »

Here's an interesting article about the Italian legal system: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/27/us-italy-knox-law-idUSBRE92Q0ZO20130327

It's widely known that it's an incredibly flawed system that's open for abuse. Knox's innocence or guilt seems to be secondary to the various legal departments trying to save face.

Saving face seems to be the only explaination for keeping this circus going.

Merkin

humanji wrote: »

Here's an interesting article about the Italian legal system: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/27/us-italy-knox-law-idUSBRE92Q0ZO20130327

It's widely known that it's an incredibly flawed system that's open for abuse. Knox's innocence or guilt seems to be secondary to the various legal departments trying to save face.

If Knox is convicted, after a final appeal to the Cassation Court, she would likely face an Italian demand for extradition, which experts here believe would not clash with U.S. double jeopardy laws because no case is final until the long process is exhausted.

As I said earlier......

humanji

Merkin wrote: »

If Knox is convicted, after a final appeal to the Cassation Court, she would likely face an Italian demand for extradition, which experts here believe would not clash with U.S. double jeopardy laws because no case is final until the long process is exhausted.

As I said earlier......

I bolded the important part. They can still be argued as it's not been tested before. It all hinges on whether or not the US believes the case to be finished on their terms. As was mentioned before, if it held in the US, the case wouldn't go on indefinitely, so it could be considered a final verdict.

It's all rather moot anyway, as the US are incredibly unlikely to hand Knox over to Italy. They gain nothing by doing so, but will get a hell of a lot of bad press at home.