Amanda Knox retrial begins

Defiler Of The Coffin

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Is this to help Sollectio to get real and help his case?

I doubt it somehow, they haven't done much to help him so far!

Amazingfun

The courtroom fell still as the presiding judge, Alessandro Nencini, read the sentences 11½ hours after the jury, consisting of two judges and six lay jurors, began its deliberations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/31/world/europe/amanda-knox-trial-in-italy.html?_r=0

Mr.Micro

Amazingfun wrote: »

He does not have to take the stand. Will you get over it?

And no, their case was not "proved" beyond a reasonable doubt. Hence the many shocked and disgusted people the world over after hearing the latest verdict.

You are just being ridiculous. You were not on the jury, nor was I. The case was proved, whether you like it or not. You need to deal with that. There is no fear of knox she is free and doing tv, book etc.

Amazingfun

Mr.Micro wrote: »

You are just being ridiculous. You were not on the jury, nor was I. The case was proved, whether you like it or not. You need to deal with that. There is no fear of knox she is free and doing tv, book etc.

Wake up and put your thinking cap on

It was not proved beyond a reasonable doubt. There are many innocent people who been exonerated of crimes they were convicted of, check out Ryan Ferguson's case for a recent example, although, sadly, there are hundreds more to choose from.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Was this a jury trial or did this judge (who is subsequently being accused of partiality) decide the verdict himself?

It wasn't a jury that re-instated the conviction, it was a panel of judges of which he was a member

Mr.Micro

Amazingfun wrote: »

Wake up and put your thinking cap on

It was not proved beyond a reasonable doubt. There are many innocent people who been exonerated of crimes they were convicted of, check out Ryan Ferguson's case for a recent example, although, sadly, there are hundreds more to choose from.

That is your opinion, not that of the judges and jury that listened to the current case. Fact. They have an appeal still. That is the way the law works.

Amazingfun

Mr.Micro wrote: »

That is your opinion, not that of the judges and jury that listened to the current case. Fact. They have an appeal still. That is the way the law works.

:pac: who said otherwise?

Defiler Of The Coffin

Mr.Micro wrote: »

That is your opinion, not that of the judges and jury that listened to the current case. Fact. They have an appeal still. That is the way the law works.

In fairness, it's not just Amazingfun's opinion, it's widely held that the whole case is a shambles. Now it's alleged that even the judges showed ‘clear evidence of prejudice’

He said: ‘The jurors returned home every day and were bombarded with information. When we met they would say, “Justice, but on TV they say that it happened in another way. What happened really?”.’
The judge seemed convinced of Knox’s guilt, saying he believed that the murder would never have happened without her. But he seemed less convinced of Sollecito’s culpability and said the Italian could have helped his case if he had submitted to cross-examination.
Defence lawyers have interpreted the comments as evidence that the panel was prejudiced, claiming the judges would have acquitted Sollecito if he had betrayed Knox.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2550544/Amanda-Knox-defence-given-final-lifeline-judge-condemned-breached-legal-rules-series-revealing-interviews-verdict.html

How can you not question the verdict given all the red flags and clear evidence of incompetence?

Montroseee

Her treatment of Patrick Lumumba would lead me to believe she is in fact a psychopath. He gave her a job and seemingly helped her settle into the area. She testified that he was involved in the murder and he lost his bar and spent time in prison as a result. I'd imagine she has earned large enough sums and has not paid him one bit of compensation.

DexyDrain

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

In fairness, it's not just Amazingfun's opinion, it's widely held that the whole case is a shambles. Now it's alleged that even the judges showed ‘clear evidence of prejudice’




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2550544/Amanda-Knox-defence-given-final-lifeline-judge-condemned-breached-legal-rules-series-revealing-interviews-verdict.html

How can you not question the verdict given all the red flags and clear evidence of incompetence?

The power of advertising. It's like listening to people say 'yes the French really do adore Le Piat d'Or, I heard it on TV.'.

There was no shambles, there was a lot of misdirection by Knox and Sollecito but what exactly do you see as being a shambles, specifically? I keep hearing the talking points of the Knox PR team and partisan bloggers but it's all so vague (and some of it a bit racist). The only element I can think of that wasn't impeccable was the bra clasp was not collected on the first search. Since the scene was sealed from that point it seems a moot point whether the DNA was on it a few days or a few weeks.

Muise...

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Yes, accepted by a judge who is now facing allegations of impropriety - http://www.independent.ie/world-news/knox-judge-faces-allegations-of-impropriety-29975193.html

No, accepted by the judges in the Cassazione (final stage) of Guede's case.

Do people watch too much US courtroom drama after their extremely biased US media coverage of this case? Would ye not get to grips with the Italian system before ruling it out of order based on John fcuking Grisham?

Defiler Of The Coffin

DexyDrain wrote: »

The power of advertising. It's like listening to people say 'yes the French really do adore Le Piat d'Or, I heard it on TV.'.

There was no shambles, there was a lot of misdirection by Knox and Sollecito but what exactly do you see as being a shambles, specifically? I keep hearing the talking points of the Knox PR team and partisan bloggers but it's all so vague (and some of it a bit racist). The only element I can think of that wasn't impeccable was the bra clasp was not collected on the first search. Since the scene was sealed from that point it seems a moot point whether the DNA was on it a few days or a few weeks.

Turn it the other way. Knox was portrayed in the media as a cunning she-devil, with the result being that the majority of people believed her to be guilty (in Italy and England at least). Even her childhood nickname - Foxy Knoxy was misrepresented as meaning she was promiscuous. The power of advertising indeed.

Why do I believe the case to be a shambles?

The motive - the prosecution's case was that Kercher was killed because she refused to take part in a drug-fuelled sex game with Guede, Knox and Sollecito. Why on Earth would they take part in an orgy with someone they've never met? Why would two people with no history of violence help cut her throat and stab her to death? By all accounts Knox and Kercher were on good terms in the lead-up to her death.

The forensics - you can't just dismiss the bra-clasp not being collected as 'moot'. It was a key piece of evidence that was mis-handled and probably contaminated after being left for six weeks on the floor where Sollecito's DNA could easily have been transferred from. The police did not follow proper procedure when collecting evidence, they didn't even wear gloves when handling the clasp. Video footage taken at the scene shows a number of errors. The bloody hand and foot prints that allegedly came from Knox could have come from anyone. It wasn't confirmed beyond reasonable doubt. It is even questionable whether it was actually blood.

Presence at the crime scene - No credible testimony of Knox and Sollecito actually being in the house in or around the time of the murder has been given.

The alleged murder weapon - Not proved beyond reasonable doubt that it was actually used in the crime.

Lack of DNA evidence in Kercher's room - Guede's DNA was all over the crime scene, yet scant if any amount of Knox's and Sollecito's was found.

Guede's history of breaking and entering - not presented to the jury for whatever reason.

There's more of course but no point in me listing out everything when Google can do the job for you.

I honestly can't fathom how you can see the case as being 'impeccable', even when disregarding the bra-strap.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Muise... wrote: »

No, accepted by the judges in the Cassazione (final stage) of Guede's case.

Apologies, misread the quote. I still don't see credible evidence of Guede not acting alone.

Muise... wrote: »

Do people watch too much US courtroom drama after their extremely biased US media coverage of this case? Would ye not get to grips with the Italian system before ruling it out of order based on John fcuking Grisham?

And your opinion of the extremely biased coverage of the case in England and Italy?

AndonHandon

Amazingfun wrote: »

Duh, no, really? :rolleyes:

The lawmakers and those involved in this fiasco certainly are.

Well that was my point; the laws aren't incompetent here.

Muise...

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Apologies, misread the quote. I still don't see credible evidence of Guede not acting alone.

And your opinion of the extremely biased coverage of the case in England and Italy?

The post-mortem indicated more than one attacker.

My opinion of UK reporting is not quite as scathing, because it's not as loud and recursive. Though I can read Italian and understand a fair bit of spoken Italian, I haven't paid much attention to their press on the matter. The only reporting I take seriously - from any of the countries involved - is that which makes direct reference to court documents instead of PR generated noise.

Amazingfun

DexyDrain wrote: »

The power of advertising. It's like listening to people say 'yes the French really do adore Le Piat d'Or, I heard it on TV.'.

There was no shambles, there was a lot of misdirection by Knox and Sollecito but what exactly do you see as being a shambles, specifically? I keep hearing the talking points of the Knox PR team and partisan bloggers but it's all so vague (and some of it a bit racist). The only element I can think of that wasn't impeccable was the bra clasp was not collected on the first search. Since the scene was sealed from that point it seems a moot point whether the DNA was on it a few days or a few weeks.

The only "racism" :rolleyes: here is the reverse racism on display. The Black rapist and murderer Rudy Guede has had his sentence cut in half for accusing two White people of a crime they didn't commit.

Amazingfun

Montroseee wrote: »

Her treatment of Patrick Lumumba would lead me to believe she is in fact a psychopath. He gave her a job and seemingly helped her settle into the area. She testified that he was involved in the murder and he lost his bar and spent time in prison as a result. I'd imagine she has earned large enough sums and has not paid him one bit of compensation.

You have no idea what went on during the interrogation before that happened.
Desperate people do desperate things, and she has paid the price for that:
she was convicted of that libel and sentenced to time served (three of the four years she spent behind bars).

DexyDrain

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Turn it the other way. Knox was portrayed in the media as a cunning she-devil, with the result being that the majority of people believed her to be guilty (in Italy and England at least). Even her childhood nickname - Foxy Knoxy was misrepresented as meaning she was promiscuous. The power of advertising indeed.

But she was promiscuous, she had sex with a random guy on the train from Germany, she took a guy from a party in the lower floor of the house upstairs for sex, Meredith told her father she brought strange men home a lot, she even says in her book she had a string of one night stands and Sollecito says they had sex the first night they met.

The motive - the prosecution's case was that Kercher was killed because she refused to take part in a drug-fuelled sex game with Guede, Knox and Sollecito. Why on Earth would they take part in an orgy with someone they've never met? Why would two people with no history of violence help cut her throat and stab her to death? By all accounts Knox and Kercher were on good terms in the lead-up to her death.

I think they actually said it was a 'hazing', a violent assault with sexual elements that was then dressed up as a violent rape after Meredith died when Knox and Sollecito came back to clean up. Knox and Meredith knew Guede before that night, he had been at the same parties as them and stayed in the house before. By what accounts were they on good terms? The girls who shared the house said Meredith was complaining of Knox's poor hygiene and bringing weirdos back to the house. They said their relationship had deteriorated before the murder. I personally think Knox and Sollecito stole her rent money and were caught in the act, Meredith tried to ring her bank, possibly to see if she had funds in the bank to cover what they had stolen.

The forensics - you can't just dismiss the bra-clasp not being collected as 'moot'. It was a key piece of evidence that was mis-handled and probably contaminated after being left for six weeks on the floor where Sollecito's DNA could easily have been transferred from.

Sollecito says he never entered the room and the bra clasp never left. The only other place Sollecito's DNA was found was on a cigarette in an ashtray, DNA does not fly around on the breeze through closed doors.

The police did not follow proper procedure when collecting evidence, they didn't even wear gloves when handling the clasp. Video footage taken at the scene shows a number of errors.

The crime scene video clearly shows they were wearing gloves when handling the clasp, in fact pro-Knox shills edited it to make it look like specks of dirt on one glove were present before they handled the clasp when the specks had actually come off the clasp itself.

The bloody hand and foot prints that allegedly came from Knox could have come from anyone. It wasn't confirmed beyond reasonable doubt. It is even questionable whether it was actually blood.

They were Amanda's size. Furthermore the footprint in Filomena's room (where they staged the burglary), had both Meredith's blood and Amanda's DNA and the size matched Amanda's foot. It could only have gotten there if Amanda had Meredith's blood on her feet when she entered that room after the killing.

Presence at the crime scene - No credible testimony of Knox and Sollecito actually being in the house in or around the time of the murder has been given.

The witness who saw Knox and Sollecito above the house was deemed reliable by Massei in his report and in the successful annulment of the Hellman verdict. They have no alibi, contradicted each other's, Amanda admitted being there, they both turned off their phones at around 8.30pm and Guede had no other way in except using Amanda's key.

The alleged murder weapon - Not proved beyond reasonable doubt that it was actually used in the crime.

Sollecito's representatives were present for the testing of the knife, the DNA profile on the blade can only be Meredith's, Amanda told her mother she was extremely worried about the police having this knife during a private conversation with her mother over the phone. As well as that, Sollecito admitted the DNA of Meredith was on the knife when he wrote that he had accidentally cut her hand while cooking with her in his apartment. Meredith had never been to his apartment and had never cooked with him. The size and form of the the blade matches the fatal wound and the imprint of a bloody knife found on the bed sheet.

Lack of DNA evidence in Kercher's room - Guede's DNA was all over the crime scene, yet scant if any amount of Knox's and Sollecito's was found.

It takes a bit of force to transfer live skin cells, dead exfoliated skin cells do not contain DNA. It is entirely possible to commit a crime and leave no DNA, especially if using gloves. My thinking is Sollecito couldn't get the bra hooks off with his gloves on so he took them off and tried again, eventuall resorting to cutting it in several places.

Guede's history of breaking and entering - not presented to the jury for whatever reason.

Not sure about this under Italian law, but the jury knew he had already been convicted and in his report Micheli stated the break-in was staged after the murder and that Guede could not have acted alone. So it's not really relevant.

There's more of course but no point in me listing out everything when Google can do the job for you.

I honestly can't fathom how you can see the case as being 'impeccable', even when disregarding the bra-strap.

What's a plausible scenario for Sollecito's DNA working its way through a keyhole and onto a bra clasp on the floor of a murder scene?

Defiler Of The Coffin

Muise... wrote: »

The post-mortem indicated more than one attacker.

Perhaps it did but it's still not definitive. Even if you go along with the fact that Guede did not act alone why was Guede's DNA found all over the room but not the other killers?

Muise... wrote: »

My opinion of UK reporting is not quite as scathing, because it's not as loud and recursive. Though I can read Italian and understand a fair bit of spoken Italian, I haven't paid much attention to their press on the matter. The only reporting I take seriously - from any of the countries involved - is that which makes direct reference to court documents instead of PR generated noise.

It's not an easy case for which to find unbiased reporting, that's for sure!

A Primal Nut

Montroseee wrote: »

Her treatment of Patrick Lumumba would lead me to believe she is in fact a psychopath. He gave her a job and seemingly helped her settle into the area. She testified that he was involved in the murder and he lost his bar and spent time in prison as a result. I'd imagine she has earned large enough sums and has not paid him one bit of compensation.

It was the police who wrote the statement that Lumumba was involved and Amanda then signed it. Given that she is also alleged to have signed a confession, and various other pieces of paper over a lengthy period; its seems her claims that she was under a lot of pressure (deprived of water and sleep) might be true.

DexyDrain

A Primal Nut wrote: »

It was the police who wrote the statement that Lumumba was involved and Amanda then signed it. Given that she is also alleged to have signed a confession, and various other pieces of paper over a lengthy period; its seems her claims that she was under a lot of pressure (deprived of water and sleep) might be true.

She actually made a voluntary statement in the early hours of the morning making the same claims, she wrote it out of her own free will.

It is a myth that she was sleep deprived and questioned for hours, she had only been questioned for about an hour when she cracked after hearing Sollecito had also cracked and said Amanda had left his apartment and was gone most of the night. One hour, that's all.

Montroseee

A Primal Nut wrote: »

It was the police who wrote the statement that Lumumba was involved and Amanda then signed it. Given that she is also alleged to have signed a confession, and various other pieces of paper over a lengthy period; its seems her claims that she was under a lot of pressure (deprived of water and sleep) might be true.

So she accused an innocent man, exactly like I said. Knox is an accomplished liar, even her strongest 'supporters' cannot deny that, I'd tend not to believe a lot of these ridiculous claims.

Amazingfun

Montroseee wrote: »

So she accused an innocent man, exactly like I said. Knox is an accomplished liar, even her strongest 'supporters' cannot deny that, I'd tend not to believe a lot of these ridiculous claims.

What part of my comment did you not understand? Seems like all of it.

NO ONE denies this, she SERVED PRISON TIME FOR IT. Who the hell "denied" it anyways? She did it under panic and duress and although distasteful to witness, understandable under the circumstances.

No one said she was a saint, we said she didn't kill Kercher. So who cares what you "believe"?

***note***

Here is a link to many useful court documents, transcripts, etc....

http://www.amandaknox.com/the-meredith-kercher-murder/

Amazingfun

DexyDrain wrote: »

She actually made a voluntary statement in the early hours of the morning making the same claims, she wrote it out of her own free will.

It is a myth that she was sleep deprived and questioned for hours, she had only been questioned for about an hour when she cracked after hearing Sollecito had also cracked and said Amanda had left his apartment and was gone most of the night. One hour, that's all.

Could you please include footnotes in your next essay?

Make it easier to fact-check your work

Amazingfun

The Conti-Vecchiotti Report: On the unreliability of the forensic evidence against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Can be read here, translated into English.

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/

DexyDrain

Amazingfun wrote: »

Could you please include footnotes in your next essay?

Make it easier to fact-check your work

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Anna_Donnino%27s_Testimony_%28English%29#Anna_Donnino.27s_Testimony

Amanda signed her declaration at 1.45am, her translator only arrived for the questioning to begin at around half 12:

GM:
You were present during the interview of Amanda Knox on the night of the 5 and 6 November?


AD:
Yes.


GM:
Tell us what happened, when you arrived and what happened, except only, obviously, the declarations, which must not be mentioned or quoted or referred to.


AD:
I remember having received a telephone call from Assistant Lorena Zugarini, the precise hour exactly I’m not able to say, though orientation-wise it would have had to have been before 23:30 because I was already in bed and at the latest I go to bed more or less a little before that time. I had received this call and Assistant Zugarini had told me that I had to come into the Station because my expertise was required. And that’s what I did, I dressed myself and I went to the Station. You have to take into consideration that I don’t live in Perugia, I live outside, I’m about 40 km away, in the environs of Castiglione del Lago, so I didn't immediately turn up at the Station, I would have taken around three quarters of an hour, however I believe to have gotten there no later than half past midnight and at that point I had started to carry out my work.


GM:
At that point you had arrived and had commenced carrying your work of interpreting in the Amanda Knox interview?


AD:
Exactly.

Amazingfun

Ok, thanks.

And what about your post previous to this? The 'essay-style' one where you make a load of claims?

Muise...

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Perhaps it did but it's still not definitive. Even if you go along with the fact that Guede did not act alone why was Guede's DNA found all over the room but not the other killers?

It's not an easy case for which to find unbiased reporting, that's for sure!

Guede's DNA was not found "all over the room"; it was found on, and in (:() the victim, so it could not have been cleaned up along with the surfaces and objects. A clean-up did take place, though "the other killers'" DNA was found on the victim's clothes, mixed with her blood on the bathroom sink and on the knife.

You are remarkably civil for a Defiler, never mind a commentator on this case.

Defiler Of The Coffin

DexyDrain wrote: »

But she was promiscuous, she had sex with a random guy on the train from Germany, she took a guy from a party in the lower floor of the house upstairs for sex, Meredith told her father she brought strange men home a lot, she even says in her book she had a string of one night stands and Sollecito says they had sex the first night they met.

According to Sollecito she was anything but a sex-goddess. All in all her having sex with a few guys doesn't make her a killer.

DexyDrain wrote: »

I think they actually said it was a 'hazing', a violent assault with sexual elements that was then dressed up as a violent rape after Meredith died when Knox and Sollecito came back to clean up. Knox and Meredith knew Guede before that night, he had been at the same parties as them and stayed in the house before. By what accounts were they on good terms? The girls who shared the house said Meredith was complaining of Knox's poor hygiene and bringing weirdos back to the house. They said their relationship had deteriorated before the murder. I personally think Knox and Sollecito stole her rent money and were caught in the act, Meredith tried to ring her bank, possibly to see if she had funds in the bank to cover what they had stolen.

She may have met him before the killing but she hardly knew him well enough to take part in an orgy with him. Had Knox and Kercher's relationship deteriorated so badly that she would end up stabbing her?

Perhaps it was Guede that stole the money? Why didn't the prosecution use the theft of the rent-money as a motive?

DexyDrain wrote: »

Sollecito says he never entered the room and the bra clasp never left. The only other place Sollecito's DNA was found was on a cigarette in an ashtray, DNA does not fly around on the breeze through closed doors.

Cross-contamination? Police using dirty gloves? The clasp was handed back and forth. Could have been contaminated in the lab.

DexyDrain wrote: »

The crime scene video clearly shows they were wearing gloves when handling the clasp, in fact pro-Knox shills edited it to make it look like specks of dirt on one glove were present before they handled the clasp when the specks had actually come off the clasp itself.

Fair enough about them wearing gloves. But did they use fresh gloves when handling the clasp? DNA from others was found on the clasp as well. It's the only item found with Sollecito's DNA.

DexyDrain wrote: »

They were Amanda's size. Furthermore the footprint in Filomena's room (where they staged the burglary), had both Meredith's blood and Amanda's DNA and the size matched Amanda's foot. It could only have gotten there if Amanda had Meredith's blood on her feet when she entered that room after the killing.

It's not certain who made the footprint. It could have been Kercher's blood mixed with residual DNA.

DexyDrain wrote: »

The witness who saw Knox and Sollecito above the house was deemed reliable by Massei in his report and in the successful annulment of the Hellman verdict. They have no alibi, contradicted each other's, Amanda admitted being there, they both turned off their phones at around 8.30pm and Guede had no other way in except using Amanda's key.

The only credible witness in the first trial gave conflicting statements, and was a heroin user. Given that they say they were alone in Sollecito's house it's reasonable that they wouldn't have an alibi. Guede could well have climbed up to the window, he had done it before at other houses.

DexyDrain wrote: »

Sollecito's representatives were present for the testing of the knife, the DNA profile on the blade can only be Meredith's, Amanda told her mother she was extremely worried about the police having this knife during a private conversation with her mother over the phone. As well as that, Sollecito admitted the DNA of Meredith was on the knife when he wrote that he had accidentally cut her hand while cooking with her in his apartment. Meredith had never been to his apartment and had never cooked with him. The size and form of the the blade matches the fatal wound and the imprint of a bloody knife found on the bed sheet.

No body fluids found on the knife, and such a small amount of DNA as to be worthless as evidence. Does not match the wounds or the blood print.

DexyDrain wrote: »

It takes a bit of force to transfer live skin cells, dead exfoliated skin cells do not contain DNA. It is entirely possible to commit a crime and leave no DNA, especially if using gloves. My thinking is Sollecito couldn't get the bra hooks off with his gloves on so he took them off and tried again, eventuall resorting to cutting it in several places.

Possible, but highly unlikely. What about Knox, why wasn't her DNA found in the room?

DexyDrain wrote: »

Not sure about this under Italian law, but the jury knew he had already been convicted and in his report Micheli stated the break-in was staged after the murder and that Guede could not have acted alone. So it's not really relevant.

Insofar as we know Guede was there for sure. But had the full facts about Guede been disclosed the jury may have come to a different conclusion.

DexyDrain wrote: »

What's a plausible scenario for Sollecito's DNA working its way through a keyhole and onto a bra clasp on the floor of a murder scene?

Cross-contamination.

Yellowblackbird

I think the Jane Tanner sighting was later dismissed.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Muise... wrote: »

You are remarkably civil for a Defiler, never mind a commentator on this case.

Nothing beats a macabre discussion over a few brandies and a cigar!

Amazingfun

Check out Rudy Guede's SKYPE convo with his friend while he was on the run:

jack says: (7:10:21PM) Listen, you have to tell me

jack says: (7:10:25PM) who was there.

Rudy Hermann says: (7:10:25PM) Do you understand where I am?

jack says: (7:10:32PM) No. Tell me what city.

jack says: (7:10:53PM) That way I can send you some money.

Rudy Hermann says: (7:11:19PM) I was in the bathroom when it happened. I tried to stop it but I couldn't do anything. Amanda had nothing to do with it.

jack says: (7:11:19PM) You have to tell me who was there.

Rudy Hermann says: (7:11:31PM) Because I fought with a male.

Rudy Hermann says: (7:11:36PM) And she wasn't there.

jack says: (7:11:39PM) And who was there?

Rudy Hermann says: (7:11:57PM) I don't know. I didn't see his face.

jack says: (7:12:11PM) But, an Italian?

jack says: (7:12:22) Patrick or Raffaele?

Rudy Hermann says: (7:12:24PM) I think so.

Rudy Hermann says: (7:12:24PM) Right. I don't have much money, unfortunately.

Rudy Hermann says: (7:13:06PM) No Patrick.

He denies raping her yet his semen is found inside the victim. Obvious lie.

Very strange stuff, did he implicate Patrick Lumbada as well?
Who was he referring to?

DexyDrain

Rudy's semen was not found inside Meredith, it was skin cells or saliva cells.

Think about his Skype conversation, he was present at the murder and Knox could tell exactly how he was involved, if he rats on her she can retaliate by saying what he had done. He blames it on a mystery man, one who the police cannot confront with Rudy's account. He knew it was Amanda and Sollecito but it would be against his interests to reveal his knowledge of this.

Muise...

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Nothing beats a macabre discussion over a few brandies and a cigar!

Mine's a grail of darkest Cahors, and a long, thin cigarette in a holder of bone...

Amazingfun

DexyDrain wrote: »

Rudy's semen was not found inside Meredith, it was skin cells or saliva cells.

Think about his Skype conversation, he was present at the murder and Knox could tell exactly how he was involved, if he rats on her she can retaliate by saying what he had done. He blames it on a mystery man, one who the police cannot confront with Rudy's account. He knew it was Amanda and Sollecito but it would be against his interests to reveal his knowledge of this.

I think you are dreaming about most of the above, but I appreciate your creativity.

Not to annoy you, as I seriously want to read it, but where is your source for the no semen/skin cells claim, please?

DexyDrain

Amazingfun wrote: »

I think you are dreaming about most of the above, but I appreciate your creativity.

Not to annoy you, as I seriously want to read it, but where is your source for the no semen/skin cells claim, please?

Page 155 of the English translation of the Massei sentencing report:

Professor Anna Aprile was examined next, on questions relating to the sexual violence.

She gave evidence of the presence of signs, which led to the assertion that Meredith Kercher had been sexually active shortly before dying. She pointed out these signs in images which documented a colouring at the level of the sexual organs and furthermore in a swab taken from the level of the vagina, which was negative in regard to the presence of biological material identifiable as sperm, but positive for the presence of biological material identifiable as belonging to a male subject, and she observed, ‚finding in the vagina ... biological material traceable to a male subject...permits us to say that biological material belonging precisely to this subject came in contact with the vagina ... It could be saliva, they could be epithelial cells flaking from the hand, or it could be indicative of penetration ... that occurred without ejaculation or on the part of an aspermic subject" (page 194).

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Massei_Report_%28English%29

DexyDrain

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

According to Sollecito she was anything but a sex-goddess. All in all her having sex with a few guys doesn't make her a killer.

You complained she was being portrayed as promiscuous, the fact is she was. It has no bearing on the case, it merely demonstrates the pro-Knox argument that 'lies' about her sex life prejudiced people against her.

She may have met him before the killing but she hardly knew him well enough to take part in an orgy with him. Had Knox and Kercher's relationship deteriorated so badly that she would end up stabbing her?

Perhaps it was Guede that stole the money? Why didn't the prosecution use the theft of the rent-money as a motive?

We don't know how well she knew Guede, but Guede seemed infatuated with her and we know they met several times, so it is not a huge leap to imagine he may have been well known to her and willing to take part in any kind of sexual adventure with her.

The rent money is a conjecture I personally think was a possible motive, but without Meredith testifying that her money had been stolen a motive has to fit the known facts for trial. Some kind of sexual assault occurred, she was violently restrained and stabbed, the defence would shred any further speculation.

Cross-contamination? Police using dirty gloves? The clasp was handed back and forth. Could have been contaminated in the lab.

But how would cross-contamination occur? The amount of DNA from Sollecito was quite abundant in two spots on the clasp, the material of the bra and the metal hook. This is consistent with his physical contact with it, not DNA being transferred. If there was contamination it did not show up in any other tests of any other pieces of evidence. The only other source of his DNA in the entire house was the cigarette butt that was collected weeks earlier. It is completely implausible that it was contamination or transfer.

Fair enough about them wearing gloves. But did they use fresh gloves when handling the clasp? DNA from others was found on the clasp as well. It's the only item found with Sollecito's DNA.

If it was the only source (and it was on this visit) then where could it have transferred from? They took dozens of samples from all over the house yet only this piece of DNA in the sealed room in a sealed house had his DNA.

It's not certain who made the footprint. It could have been Kercher's blood mixed with residual DNA.

There was no residual DNA of the actual occupant of that room found on any sample taken from there, DNA doesn't just fall off you everywhere you go.

The only credible witness in the first trial gave conflicting statements, and was a heroin user. Given that they say they were alone in Sollecito's house it's reasonable that they wouldn't have an alibi. Guede could well have climbed up to the window, he had done it before at other houses.

He couldn't climb up the window from the muddy and grassy ground while leaving no trace of his scrambling up the wall, there was no mud/grass on the window sill or in the room he would have broken into.

The broken glass was found on top of all the clothes etc. that had been 'ransacked' proving the glass was broken after the room had been trashed.

There was a prominent nail sticking out of the wall that he would have had to drag himself over or used as a grip, it was untouched. There was glass on both sides of the window sill that he would have knocked or brushed off to get through the window yet it was all still in place, not a single shard of glass fell onto the mud and grass below (the shutters were closed when Knox and Sollecito threw the rock at the window from inside the room).

No body fluids found on the knife, and such a small amount of DNA as to be worthless as evidence. Does not match the wounds or the blood print.

Even the hostile DNA experts could not claim the result was unreliable, they claimed it may have been contamination but this is impossible. DNA testing had carried on with many samples for six days after the previous item examined from Meredith's murder. It is extremely improbable that the trace was due to contamination.

Possible, but highly unlikely. What about Knox, why wasn't her DNA found in the room?

Nearly a dozen swabs were taken from Sollecito's car yet none tested positive for anyone's DNA, no DNA from Filomena was found in her room despite her living in it! It doesn't fall like snow from people. The perception that DNA must be present at a crime scene to prove someone was there is known as the 'CSI effect': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect

DexyDrain

tl;dr for above post: DNA sampling is like the proverbial needle in a haystack, because a number of swabs do not contain someone's DNA does not mean the person's DNA was not in the room.

If you went into a dark room and without using a torch took several scrapes off the carpet which tested negative for biscuit crumbs, you cannot say for certain that there are no crumbs anywhere on the carpet. DNA sampling is the same.

Swabs target potential sites for DNA, there is no way of scanning an entire room, piece of clothing, body, physical item to reveal if they have any DNA on them.

Amazingfun

It could be saliva, they could be epithelial cells flaking from the hand, or it could be indicative of penetration ... that occurred without ejaculation or on the part of an aspermic subject" (page 194).

Thanks!

Amazingfun

Even the hostile DNA experts could not claim the result was unreliable, they claimed it may have been contamination but this is impossible. DNA testing had carried on with many samples for six days after the previous item examined from Meredith's murder. It is extremely improbable that the trace was due to contamination.

You seem to contradict yourself in a few places. First it's "impossible" that this flimsy piece of supposed evidence can be contaminated, and then in the next sentence it's "extremely improbable". Which means it's possible.

DexyDrain

Amazingfun wrote: »

You seem to contradict yourself in a few places. First it's "impossible" that this flimsy piece of supposed evidence can be contaminated, and then in the next sentence it's "extremely improbable". Which means it's possible.

They relate to two different possibilities/claims:

1. They claimed in court it may have been contaminated in the lab because the machine had tested items from the case six days earlier. The machine had been used and completely flushed out many times in between so lab contamination is impossible as an explanation.

2. It is extremely improbable that the knife was contaminated before it got to the lab, but not impossible. A different team searched Sollecito's apartment on a different day from searches at the cottage, they also put on protective clothing before entering. The knife was collected and sent to the police station where it was sent on to the office in Rome. The chain of evidence was never broken, but it would not be possible to entirely exclude a possible contamination along this chain. It is extremely improbable that this happened as Meredith's DNA was not found on any other item collected or sent at this time.

Amazingfun

Dexy claims Guede couldn't break in that window easily?
Not according to this guy:

How Rudy Guede Broke In

by AMANDA posted on DECEMBER 12, 2013

This looks to be part of a documentary on the case, where two journalists request the opinion and demonstration by a young climbing expert of how Rudy Guede could have broken into Meredith’s and my apartment the night of the murder. Thank you to these journalists and this young climber for clarifying the issue.

Video: Young Man Demonstrates Climb Up to Window.

For a more detailed analysis on how the break-in took place, please see Ron Hendry’s article, A Detailed Look at the Physical Evidence Regarding the Break-In at Injustice in Perugia.
Thank you, Mr. Hendry.

http://www.amandaknox.com/2013/12/12/how-he-broke-in/

Amazingfun

That Ron Hendry article is a must read regarding Guede's breaking in to the Kercher/Knox residence:

A Detailed Look at the Physical Evidence Regarding the Break-In

By Ron Hendry

In order to convict Amanda and Raffaele, the Prosecution relied upon a convoluted theory to connect Amanda and Raffaele with Rudy in the commission of the murder. This convoluted theory hinged upon being able to almost summarily dismiss the broken and open window in Filomena Romanelli’s room as a staging of a break-in instead of an actual break-in by a known burglar by the name of Rudy Guede.
A host of rationales and other supposed factors and witness observations have been put forth by the prosecution to offhandedly promote what happened to Filomena’s room and her window as being a staged event. These flimsy rationales for a staged break-in have also been promoted by Judges in their justification of a wide range of opinions adverse to Amanda and Raffaele.

The early posturing of the break-in as a staged situation without a rigorous investigation and sound factual evidence to back it up resulted in the murder investigation being turned upside down from the beginning. The threshold for proving it was other than a burglary break-in as it outwardly appeared should have been very high. Instead the threshold for proving it was a burglary break-in was set very high and seriously handicapped by the failure of the police to perform due diligence in promptly investigating and fully documenting the inside and outside areas as a break-in.

Simply put, if Rudy Guede had gained entrance to the cottage through Filomena Romanelli’s room, then Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent of any involvement. Additionally they should never have been considered suspects and would never have been subjected to all they have endured for almost the past three years.

This four part analysis is intended to provide a rigorous examination of the physical evidence associated with the found condition of Filomena Romanelli’s room and window.

Part One: How was Filomena’s window broken? (this page)

Part Two: Did Rudy Guede gain entrance to the cottage through Filomena Romanelli’s window?

Part Three: The Break-In – A discussion of early observations that raised suspicions of staging

Part four: A step by step reconstruction of how Rudy Guede gained entrance to the cottage

Read it here:

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry

---

2.html

sparkle109

This case is just so strange.. the lack of physical evidence linking her to it is pretty convincing, considering the state of the crime scene, but her behaviour was just so off!

Amazingfun

sparkle109 wrote: »

This case is just so strange.. the lack of physical evidence linking her to it is pretty convincing, considering the state of the crime scene, but her behaviour was just so off!

Agreed.

But that just makes her weird, not a killer.

MonaPizza

Look, if you have the audacity to question the official line on this and express doubt about evidence, not to mention the motives or competence of the authorities regarding this, or any other issue, then you're a goddamn tin-foil hat wearing CTer, ok?

END OF!

DexyDrain

Amazingfun wrote: »

Dexy claims Guede couldn't break in that window easily?
Not according to this guy:



http://www.amandaknox.com/2013/12/12/how-he-broke-in/

OK. Let's put aside the fact that they have paid an experienced rock climber to say that anyone could do what he did (why not just get someone else to do it?).

Watch carefully, 38-39 seconds, he is leaning dead flat against an area where a large prominent nail had remained in place sticking out several inches yet it was untouched!

41 seconds: 'let's zoom out and change angle while he uses the bars that were not there at the time of the murder to make the final climb'. Seriously?

Then around 1:30 he demonstrates how easily he can open the shutters, except these are new shutters that do not rub against the window sill and were not 'very hard to open' like the witnesses at the trial made clear.


But there are major problems not addressed at all:
There was undisturbed shards of broken glass on both sides of the window sill. None fell to the ground during this operation.
The ground was muddy and wet and he would have to climb twice, once to open shutters so glass could be broken, no shoe prints or scuffs were on the wall.
Glass fell on top of the 'ransacked' clothes, so he must have gone in the front door then decided after trashing the room it would be more fun to go back out and climb in the most exposed window on the house?

mitosis

Amazingfun wrote: »

Dexy claims Guede couldn't break in that window easily?
Not according to this guy:



http://www.amandaknox.com/2013/12/12/how-he-broke-in/

Ah no. You can't seriously be using amandaknox.com as a source of reliable information to refute a court decision. Nor should injusticeinperugia be considered a reliable source. Both only provide snippets of evidence - the bits it suits them to report.

I get that you really really want her to be innocent (though I don't know why) but unless you have expertise in the area and access to the court during the trial all you have is an opinion. Just like me. And the opinion is formed by the media fuelled by the convicted - not exactly unbiased.

The media campaign reminds me so much of the Madeline McCann campaign and the Diana of Wales murder theory.

Muise...

MonaPizza wrote: »

Look, if you have the audacity to question the official line on this and express doubt about evidence, not to mention the motives or competence of the authorities regarding this, or any other issue, then you're a goddamn tin-foil hat wearing CTer, ok?

END OF!

Pretty much.

Though it's not so much audacity as recreational outrage based on a PR campaign.

BQQ

Amazingfun wrote: »

That Ron Hendry article is a must read regarding Guede's breaking in to the Kercher/Knox residence:

There's an awful lot of straw clutching in that.
He skillfully climbs the wall without leaving a trace or disturbing any glass on the outer windowsill.
The rock manages to ransack the room and he then climbs up and throws a few shards of glass onto Filomena's clothes :pac:


I would suggest that anyone who read that should also read this:

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Staged_Burglary#Did_Amanda_Knox_and_Raffaele_Sollecito_Attempt_to_Divert_Attention_from_Themselves.3F