WCC Refuse to take charge of Charlesland Dual Carriageway

Run DMC

I read recently in the Wicklow Times that the council voted against taking in charge the dual carriageway through Charlesland and only took charge of the spine road. They refused to take charge of the dual carriageway due to the amount of maintenence work that would be required, the cost of this work. It was proposed that the WCC do not take charge "until a plan to maintain it is agreed."

I emailed WCC and got confirmation of this fact. When I asked who was paying for the maintenence now I was told "we assume a Charlesland Management Company".

Can anyone involved in one of the management companies let me know if we as residents are contributing to this public dual carriageway through our management fees.

If so, then it seems wrong that we are paying for the up keep of a public road as WCC do not want to have to pay for it.

Charlie-Bravo

I'm interested in how pressure can be put on WCC now that they have plenty of funds available to them by means of the newly introduced Local Property Tax. #NoExcuse

Car2318

If my management fees are paying for the upkeep of public road, used by people in all environs - Kilcoole, Delgany, Wicklow, Greystones etc etc then I insist we place a toll on it!
Free pass to residents and all others are charged - simple as.
I will even volunteer my services in manning this toll!

I certainly hope our fees are not covering it - especially considering reading of the Park last accounts and amount of non payments!

pixbyjohn

Now that the Spine road is taken over by WCC will it mean that all the lampposts etc. will be full of election posters in the run up to the next elections?

The Real B-man

Car2318 wrote: »

If my management fees are paying for the upkeep of public road, used by people in all environs - Kilcoole, Delgany, Wicklow, Greystones etc etc then I insist we place a toll on it!
Free pass to residents and all others are charged - simple as.
I will even volunteer my services in manning this toll!

I certainly hope our fees are not covering it - especially considering reading of the Park last accounts and amount of non payments!

Bit Dramatic its Classed as a Regional Road R774 I pay MotorTax its not my Fault who is Responosible for it which i agree should be the Local Council its open Nearly 8yrs.

Car2318

Do you think?
I don't think it is one bit dramatic. If its a regional road then why should one particular estate's management fees pay for it.
Are you paying fees towards it?
We both pay road tax so why should I contribute more to a 5km stretch of road that we both use.

Anyway I think WCC will have no choice.

JanneG

The Real B-man wrote: »

Bit Dramatic its Classed as a Regional Road R774 I pay MotorTax its not my Fault who is Responosible for it which i agree should be the Local Council its open Nearly 8yrs.

Since when does the motor tax in Ireland pay for any of the roads?

Annasopra

Make it an issue for next Mays elections

Charlie-Bravo

On the other point, did I hear that only the road on the spine was taken in charge by WCC and not the green area and the playground? There's a huge cost in terms of public liability insurance on this area. Would be great to get confirmation if the overall management company is shelling out for PL as well as maintenance.

matt-dublin

there was talk about this in the overall committee recently.

they council have requested charlesland to pay for it, unequivocally the answer will be no.
there were some very compelling statements against charlesland taking the cost and some of them included:

we've spent a lot of time trying to reduce the fees for our residents, we have little or no intention of having to raise them.
we've all been faced to pay property tax this year, use that money.
we're all going to have to pay for water next year, despite the fact the last time there was a major leak in the estate we had to repair it at our own cost.
the road is now advertised as the main carriage way form the n11 into greystones, why should only charlesland fund the maintenance?
we have enough difficulty getting residents to pay fees, this will make it more troublesome.

nearly half a million euro was raised from LPT from Charlesland alone, they should be using that to fund it.

also just to note, it was Derek Mitchell who proposed that only the road be taken into charge and not the landscaping maintenance. George Jones proposed that Charlesland should fund the landscaping.

i would ask that you all begin emailing them in complaint that they even suggested such a ludicrous idea but also lobby him to have the council pay for the maintenance.
gjones@georgejones.ie
mitchelld@eircom.net

loyatemu

what a farce. What do the planning conditions for Charlesland say about the access road? Is there anything to legally stop you blocking it off?

Annasopra

matt-dublin wrote: »

there was talk about this in the overall committee recently.

they council have requested charlesland to pay for it, unequivocally the answer will be no.
there were some very compelling statements against charlesland taking the cost and some of them included:

we've spent a lot of time trying to reduce the fees for our residents, we have little or no intention of having to raise them.
we've all been faced to pay property tax this year, use that money.
we're all going to have to pay for water next year, despite the fact the last time there was a major leak in the estate we had to repair it at our own cost.
the road is now advertised as the main carriage way form the n11 into greystones, why should only charlesland fund the maintenance?
we have enough difficulty getting residents to pay fees, this will make it more troublesome.

nearly half a million euro was raised from LPT from Charlesland alone, they should be using that to fund it.

also just to note, it was Derek Mitchell who proposed that only the road be taken into charge and not the landscaping maintenance. George Jones proposed that Charlesland should fund the landscaping.

i would ask that you all begin emailing them in complaint that they even suggested such a ludicrous idea but also lobby him to have the council pay for the maintenance.
gjones@georgejones.ie
mitchelld@eircom.net

I don't understand what you are saying at all there? Are you saying that Derek Mitchell and George Jones proposed that WCC take the road in charge but that the residents pay for the landscaping? Is that what Wicklow County Council voted on recently? I thought I read that there was some vote at Wicklow County Council and George, Derek, Grainne and Tom all voted one way and all the other councillors voted another way.

Who pays for maintenance of the road at the moment?

matt-dublin

The builders pay for it currently. The council voted I think not to take the landscaping in charge because they didn't have the resources/budget

Annasopra

I found the Wicklow Times article I will try and scan later

FirstIn

mango salsa wrote: »

I found the Wicklow Times article I will try and scan later

Yes. That would be good. Before we go emailing the councillors we need to be clear on what they voted for and against.

matt-dublin

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/localnotes/no-funds-to-maintain-dual-carriageway-29550892.html

Eponymous

FirstIn wrote: »

Yes. That would be good. Before we go emailing the councillors we need to be clear on what they voted for and against.

We also need to be clear on just who it was voted in this way, it's not just Jones and Mitchell.

Wicklow People wrote:

Cllr. Mitchell's proposal, along with the amendment from Cllr. Jones, was put to the vote and narrowly passed, with 11 voting in favour, 10 against, 1 abstaining and 2 not present

These individuals will be knocking on doors next Spring and will be relying on votes from Charlesland to keep their snouts in the trough.

In the meantime, the joint Management Committees need to be steadfast in their resolution that not one cent of our fees goes to maintaining a public road.

Charlie-Bravo

From that article:

Cllr. Mitchell's proposal, along with the amendment from Cllr. Jones, was put to the vote and narrowly passed, with 11 voting in favour, 10 against, 1 abstaining and 2 not present

So who are the 11 in favour, and 10 against of not of Mitchell's proposal? Name and shame. This will be important for the next local elections.

Do any of these councillors live in Charlesland? It seems to me they couldn't give two hoots about Charlesland - nearly a snobbish 'blow in' attitude given towards people of Charlesland with a 'let them fend for themselves' stance.

Charlie-Bravo

Actually, James O'Sullivan welcomed the turning on of the traffic lights near Shoreline. They haven't worked since the big 'flash'. I hope he's back onto the newspapers about his dismay as there is no funding to switch the lights back on.

matt-dublin

we should probably lobby simon harris about it as well, he's usually fairly good in these matters.

Annasopra

Eponymous wrote: »

We also need to be clear on just who it was voted in this way, it's not just Jones and Mitchell.



These individuals will be knocking on doors next Spring and will be relying on votes from Charlesland to keep their snouts in the trough.

In the meantime, the joint Management Committees need to be steadfast in their resolution that not one cent of our fees goes to maintaining a public road.

Just to be clear

The 21 Councillors who voted for or against this are members of Wicklow County Council. Only 4 members of WCC represent the Greystones area. This will increase to 6 because of the abolition of Greystones Town Council.

Eponymous

mango salsa wrote: »

Just to be clear

The 21 Councillors who voted for or against this are members of Wicklow County Council. Only 4 members of WCC represent the Greystones area. This will increase to 6 because of the abolition of Greystones Town Council.

I never said otherwise.

Charlie-Bravo

Without losing focus - who were the councillors present that voted? I am happy to send an email to each seeking confirmation in writing on which way they voted.

loyatemu

even more bizarre - the council officials wanted to take over the road, but Mitchell and Jones (who are Greystones councillors) lobbied against it.

Presumably the building of the road as a dual carriageway was part of the planning conditions for Charlesland (it forms part of the Greystones Southern Access Route which the council themselves planned). If it was just an access road for Charlesland maybe, but its not, the entire town uses it.

Is this just the eastern section of the road (i.e. from the Kilcoole Road roundabout to Shoreline)? Does the council already maintain the section up to the N11?

MyPerfectCousin

loyatemu wrote: »

even more bizarre - the council officials wanted to take over the road, but Mitchell and Jones (who are Greystones councillors) lobbied against it.

That's the bit that struck me too. And councillors from south Wicklow giving out to Greystones councillors about it. THere is something not being said here. I wonder if Jones and Mitchell are afraid that maintenance budgets for Greystones overall will be impacted by the cost of maintaining this road that they got for free up to now. I.e., if the council has to maintain the Charlesland dual carriageway without an increase in budget, maintenance of Church Road, Rathdown Road, etc., will suffer.

loyatemu

the population of Greystones has increased, mainly as a result of the Charlesland & Eden Gate developments. WCC will benefit from increased LPT as a result, the corollary is that they will have to spend more money on services in Greystones, including maintaining the new roads...

Annasopra

astrofluff wrote: »

Without losing focus - who were the councillors present that voted? I am happy to send an email to each seeking confirmation in writing on which way they voted.

This is the July Minutes

http://www.wicklow.ie/Apps/WicklowBeta/members/MinutesWCC2013/Minutes%20of%20Ordinary%20Meeting%2001-07-2013.pdf

Item No. 5.
To consider the Taking in Charge of the following estates/roads:
• Belard Manor, Glenealy
• Charlesland Dual-Carraigeway and Spine Road, Charlesland
• Deerpark View, Baltinglass
• Castle Court, Kiltegan
• Seapoint, Wicklow
• The Belfry, Aughrim

................

2. Charlesland Dual Carriageway and Spine Road, Charlesland – Concern was expressed regarding the future maintenance of this roadway in that the Council may not be in a position to maintain the area following taking in charge. Clarification on this was requested from the Director of Services as well as confirmation that he was satisfied that the road and the spine road was constructed in accordance with planning permission and that all of the public lighting, traffic lights etc were in functional order.

The Director of Services advised that there were two roads involved and that the dual carriage was not part of the housing development and therefore was not maintained by the management company but by Ballymore homes up to the present. Wicklow County Council does not cut the grass in the open spaces in private housing estates, however in the case of the dual carriageway the maintenance will be the responsibility of Wicklow County Council and while Ballymore Homes have been maintaining it up to now the Council cannot legally insist that this practice continue. He confirmed that as far as he was aware all work has been carried out in accordance with planning permission. Cllr. G. Jones advised that he found it hard to believe that a developer was carrying out the maintenance of the dual carriageway free gratis having regard to the amount of workmen involved and the manner in which it was precisely done every summer for the last five or six years. He proposed that the matter be discussed again at the Greystones Area meeting and that it be deferred to the September Agenda. This was seconded by
Cllr. G. McLoughlin and agreed.

.......

At the conclusion of the discussion on the matter Cllr. P. Vance recommended that in future prior to the Council being requested to approve the taking in charge of estates that they be considered by the respective area committees in advance.

The report in the paper appears to be from the September meeting - the minutes of the September meeting are not on WCC website yet

FirstIn

Is there any way we can find out how the other 2 Greystones councillors voted?
As it stands we know how Derek Mitchell and George Jones voted. On this matter they are no friends of Charlesland.

Annasopra

FirstIn wrote: »

Is there any way we can find out how the other 2 Greystones councillors voted?

Contact them and ask them

FirstIn

Mitchell's says ; "'There are 5,000 people living in that estate. It's a big place with around €600,000 coming into the council from the household charge and rates from the factory there. It will cost a lot of money to maintain the dual carriageway. The Area Manager for Greystones keeps telling us he has no extra money for maintenance purposes. I would not be prepared to take over the dual carriageway until management come up with a realistic proposal to maintain the road."
Does this not read as while we get lots of money from Charlesland we don't want to have the cost of maintaining the road! Surely they should have no choice but to maintain it.

And Jones "Cllr. George Jones added an amendment to Cllr. Mitchell's proposal which called on the council to defer taking charge of the dual carriageway until they engage in discussions with the six management companies currently maintaining the estate to see if they would also fund the maintenance of the road"
This is crazy, why would the mgmt companies want to fund this?

matt-dublin

FirstIn wrote: »

Mitchell's says ; "'There are 5,000 people living in that estate. It's a big place with around €600,000 coming into the council from the household charge and rates from the factory there. It will cost a lot of money to maintain the dual carriageway. The Area Manager for Greystones keeps telling us he has no extra money for maintenance purposes. I would not be prepared to take over the dual carriageway until management come up with a realistic proposal to maintain the road."
Does this not read as while we get lots of money from Charlesland we don't want to have the cost of maintaining the road! Surely they should have no choice but to maintain it.

And Jones "Cllr. George Jones added an amendment to Cllr. Mitchell's proposal which called on the council to defer taking charge of the dual carriageway until they engage in discussions with the six management companies currently maintaining the estate to see if they would also fund the maintenance of the road"
This is crazy, why would the mgmt companies want to fund this?

That's the whole point we don't and won't be.