Celtic Vs Barcelona TV3 & ITV1 19:45

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Ironically I was given an infraction in June for a comment I wrote to you because "Accusing someone of trolling is against the charter"

In all seriousness, I believe Arturo Vidal has been unquestionably the best player in European football since the new season began. Been in absolutely scintillating form and has been top class for years, but remains seriously underrated.

He is up there with the best of the best midfielders in world football at the minute and this isn't a purple patch like Ramsey, he's been in great form for 2 years. I doubt you watch enough Serie A football to know this though, which isn't a jab, but anyone who does will tell you how great he has been.

So for me, Fabregas has been excellent, as has Ozil and Ramsey but Vidal has been fantastic and has been this for a long time.

Also, being a part of the team that won these trophies doesn't make him world class. He's good but he is far from great. Valdes is good enough and does the job well but would struggle more with a weaker team and would most likely be shown up, not that he is held in as high regard as you think anyway. Most people know he isn't all that great.

The difference there being, I assume, that you rather mounted a crusade that disrupted a couple of threads whereas I have used the term for the sake of hyperbole to illustrate just how ridiculous I believe your argument in several comments on this thread to be.

Fabregas, thus far, I believe has 8 assists. I also believe that the highest amount last season was 15. We are only 6 games into the season and Cesc has over half the amount of assists as the player with the most assists last season. Statistically he has been golden but performance wise he's been simply awesome, had a fantastic Confederations Cup that was cut short by injury, and has carried that form into the season to the point where he is now a very genuine and very real threat to Xavi and Iniesta for their starting roles in midfield. I've had my doubts about Cesc and his ability to adapt to the Barca way, he has won me over completely.

Too Tough To Die

Valdes is fantastic much of the time but much too error prone to be considered the best. Seems a bit dim.

Skylinehead

MonkstownHoop wrote: »

Gerard Pique is average

Gerard Pique is slower than continental drift.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

Gerard Pique is slower than continental drift.

Is he the quickest? No, though he is hardly as slow as some would have you believe. In any case his reading of the game is first class, he's brave and over time he has taken on the role of marshaling the defence. He's a world class centre back, a modern centre back and a hugely gifted centre back. A player at the heart of two of the best teams of their generation is hardly average and Pique is a long way from average.

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The difference there being, I assume, that you rather mounted a crusade that disrupted a couple of threads whereas I have used the term for the sake of hyperbole to illustrate just how ridiculous I believe your argument in several comments on this thread to be.

Fabregas, thus far, I believe has 8 assists. I also believe that the highest amount last season was 15. We are only 6 games into the season and Cesc has over half the amount of assists as the player with the most assists last season. Statistically he has been golden but performance wise he's been simply awesome, had a fantastic Confederations Cup that was cut short by injury, and has carried that form into the season to the point where he is now a very genuine and very real threat to Xavi and Iniesta for their starting roles in midfield. I've had my doubts about Cesc and his ability to adapt to the Barca way, he has won me over completely.

Yeah he's playing well and i get that, but it's much, much too early in the season to be saying he's the best player in Europe "so far this season". That's like if I started saying Luca Toni was the best player in Europe after the 1st game because he scored twice. There simply hasn't been enough games played

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Is he the quickest? No, though he is hardly as slow as some would have you believe. In any case his reading of the game is first class, he's brave and over time he has taken on the role of marshaling the defence. He's a world class centre back, a modern centre back and a hugely gifted centre back. A player at the heart of two of the best teams of their generation is hardly average and Pique is a long way from average.

He, along with Valdes, is average. Of course there is always an excuse made for players like him and Shakira was even getting the blame for his poor performances at one stage.

Messi, Fabregas, Iniesta, Xavi, Neymar.. Fair enough talking these lads up. But trying to say that Valdes and Pique are world class is nonsense and invalidates your other points. If these, whom many consider the weak links in Barca's team, are fantastic and the best in their position then why did Barcelona lose 7-0 on aggregate to Bayern last year?

Valdes is around the same level as the likes of Sczcesny, Reina, Sirigu and the likes and is quite some distance behind Neuer

Pique is around the level of Agger, Nastasic, Koscielny etc. and is quite some distance behind Thiago Silva, Kompany, Chiellini and the likes

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Yeah he's playing well and i get that, but it's much, much too early in the season to be saying he's the best player in Europe "so far this season". That's like if I started saying Luca Toni was the best player in Europe after the 1st game because he scored twice. There simply hasn't been enough games played


He, along with Valdes, is average. Of course there is always an excuse made for players like him and Shakira was even getting the blame for his poor performances at one stage.

Messi, Fabregas, Iniesta, Xavi, Neymar.. Fair enough talking these lads up. But trying to say that Valdes and Pique are world class is nonsense and invalidates your other points. If these, whom many consider the weak links in Barca's team, are fantastic and the best in their position then why did Barcelona lose 7-0 on aggregate to Bayern last year?

Valdes is around the same level as the likes of Sczcesny, Reina, Sirigu and the likes and is quite some distance behind Neuer

Pique is around the level of Agger, Nastasic, Koscielny etc. and is quite some distance behind Thiago Silva, Kompany, Chiellini and the likes

The first point is really a debate of words rather than opinions. You think it's too soon to be talking about there being a best player in Europe so far, I think 6 league games and 2 Champions League games and 2 legs of the Supercup is enough time to make a judgement on that particular portion of time.

Think about your last sentence of that third paragraph for a moment and consider how ridiculous it is. To base your judgement on how average a player is based on one tie (ironically he was one of Barcelona's best players over both legs). It's the equivalent of me saying he kept a clean sheet against Celtic therefore he must be great. Also I could just as easily highlight the astounding lack of goals that Spain have conceded in major tournaments.

Far from it, right now I'd have Valdes over each of them. He pumps confidence through his defence, his performances all season speak for themselves and a case can be made that along with Fabregas, Messi and Neymar he has been one of the main driving forces behind Barcelona making the greatest start to a season in the clubs history.

But Kompany couldn't stop the Bayern onslaught and they lost 3-1 therefore he must be bad. Kompany has never even played in the knockout stages of the Champions League or in a major international tournament so he must be bad....yes I'm being aloof. In reality Piqué is right up there with those centre backs.

Lennonist

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Far from it, right now I'd have Valdes over each of them. He pumps confidence through his defence, his performances all season speak for themselves and a case can be made that along with Fabregas, Messi and Neymar he has been one of the main driving forces behind Barcelona making the greatest start to a season in the clubs

Your beloved Barca are apparently showing an interest in signing Fraser Forster according to reports in Barcelona papers this morning. Perhaps they think he's a better 'keeper than Valdes is.

PauloMN

Lennonist wrote: »

Your beloved Barca are apparently showing an interest in signing Fraser Forster according to reports in Barcelona papers this morning. Perhaps they think he's a better 'keeper than Valdes is.

Never a better time for him to get playing for England. He'd a great game on Tuesday. Hart, on the other hand..... well the less said there the better!

I hope if/when he leaves Celtic that he does really well for himself. He's a fantastic keeper. The term "world class" is bandied about a lot these days, but I think he's in that category. We'd not have made the last 16 last season without him.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Is he the quickest? No, though he is hardly as slow as some would have you believe. In any case his reading of the game is first class, he's brave and over time he has taken on the role of marshaling the defence. He's a world class centre back, a modern centre back and a hugely gifted centre back. A player at the heart of two of the best teams of their generation is hardly average and Pique is a long way from average.

Time and time again he's got caught out. I'll admit that he was better a few years ago, but over the last 2 years he's been more or less a liability. See Bayern. Per Mertesacker reads the game much, much better and he's even slower than Pique. Pique also has that annoying tendency to run up the pitch, he's a centre half and should stick to defending.

Andersonisgod

Lennonist wrote: »

Your beloved Barca are apparently showing an interest in signing Fraser Forster according to reports in Barcelona papers this morning. Perhaps they think he's a better 'keeper than Valdes is.

Honestly some posts have to be seen to be believed. Victor Valdes has decided he wants to leave, not the other way around. Barcelona are desperate to keep him, so desperate that they have kept him at the club this season knowing that he can leave on a free in the summer. Barcelona have reiterated their desire to keep him only a couple of weeks ago, they rate him as highly as any goalkeeper is rated. They realise, like many others do, that Valdes is the perfect Barcelona goalkeeper. You are clearly woefully ill informed if you think Barcelona actually want to get rid of him.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

Time and time again he's got caught out. I'll admit that he was better a few years ago, but over the last 2 years he's been more or less a liability. See Bayern. Per Mertesacker reads the game much, much better and he's even slower than Pique. Pique also has that annoying tendency to run up the pitch, he's a centre half and should stick to defending.

Apart from quite a poor final season under Guardiola he has regained his form and this season is arguably playing some of his best football. Why is that an annoying tendency? A centre back that can carry the ball and break through the lines is such an effective tool in modern day football and, IMO, is something that any top centre back should be able to do and few do it better than Piqué and, IMO, there are few more talented centre backs than Gerard Piqué.

bobbysands81

PauloMN wrote: »

Never a better time for him to get playing for England. He'd a great game on Tuesday. Hart, on the other hand..... well the less said there the better!

I hope if/when he leaves Celtic that he does really well for himself. He's a fantastic keeper. The term "world class" is bandied about a lot these days, but I think he's in that category. We'd not have made the last 16 last season without him.

I thought Forster has been quite poor so far this season.

He was incredible against Barca though.

karma_

PauloMN wrote: »

Never a better time for him to get playing for England. He'd a great game on Tuesday. Hart, on the other hand..... well the less said there the better!

I hope if/when he leaves Celtic that he does really well for himself. He's a fantastic keeper. The term "world class" is bandied about a lot these days, but I think he's in that category. We'd not have made the last 16 last season without him.

I'd have him at City in a heartbeat.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Apart from quite a poor final season under Guardiola he has regained his form and this season is arguably playing some of his best football. Why is that an annoying tendency? A centre back that can carry the ball and break through the lines is such an effective tool in modern day football and, IMO, is something that any top centre back should be able to do and few do it better than Piqué and, IMO, there are few more talented centre backs than Gerard Piqué.

Barca have enough attackers as it is, and if Pique goes forward it leaves them far too open at the back. Luiz has the same problem. All well and good being able to play it out from the back, nothing wrong with that, but once you're past the halfway line you're not doing your job, which is to defend.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

Barca have enough attackers as it is, and if Pique goes forward it leaves them far too open at the back. Luiz has the same problem. All well and good being able to play it out from the back, nothing wrong with that, but once you're past the halfway line you're not doing your job, which is to defend.

Jamie Carragher , you're on Boards?

My not so flippant response is that the philosophy of defenders being big, uncultured players who can't kick a ball and who rely on a unit to defend rather than being confident in a 1 vs 1 situation are drawing to a close while Pique, Luiz and the like are the prototypical modern centre back and, IMO, two of the finest centre backs in world football.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Jamie Carragher , you're on Boards?

My not so flippant response is that the philosophy of defenders being big, uncultured players who can't kick a ball and who rely on a unit to defend rather than being confident in a 1 vs 1 situation are drawing to a close while Pique, Luiz and the like are the prototypical modern centre back and, IMO, two of the finest centre backs in world football.

I think you'll find that I said playing the ball out from the back, i.e. kicking the ball is a good thing. Exposing your team is not. You won't see Thiago Silva, Kompany, Vidic, Chiellini running like a headless chicken into the opponents half, and they, not the other two, are regarded as the best centre halves in the world, and for good reason.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

I think you'll find that I said playing the ball out from the back, i.e. kicking the ball is a good thing. Exposing your team is not. You won't see Thiago Silva, Kompany, Vidic, Chiellini running like a headless chicken into the opponents half, and they, not the other two, are regarded as the best centre halves in the world, and for good reason.

Mate you will quite regularly see Thiago Silva charging forward with the ball, as too will Chiellini and Kompany to a lesser extent. Luiz and Piqué have surpassed Vidic in the last 2-3 seasons due to their quality and because he has barely played compared to both of those players. You clearly have a rather narrow view of what a centre back should do, luckily modern football more and more sides with my view on what a centre back should do.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Mate you will quite regularly see Thiago Silva charging forward with the ball, as too will Chiellini and Kompany to a lesser extent. Luiz and Piqué have surpassed Vidic in the last 2-3 seasons due to their quality and because he has barely played compared to both of those players. You clearly have a rather narrow view of what a centre back should do, luckily modern football more and more sides with my view on what a centre back should do.

Chiellini definitely doesn't. I watch Juventus every week and am pretty certain this isn't the case. Never seen either of the other two do it regularly either. As for your "modern football" thing, the Bayern centre halves didn't do it against Barca and humiliated them, so I think you might be wrong with that one. Just because two players do it doesn't mean modern football as a whole does.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

Chiellini definitely doesn't. I watch Juventus every week and am pretty certain this isn't the case. Never seen either of the other two do it regularly either. As for your "modern football" thing, the Bayern centre halves didn't do it against Barca and humiliated them, so I think you might be wrong with that one. Just because two players do it doesn't mean modern football as a whole does.

Chiellini certainly does it the odd time, not as much as Luiz, Piqué, Silva or Hummels. One tie does not define world football. Brazil and Spain, 1 Confederations Cup, 2 European Championships, 1 World Cup all with modern centre backs. Bayern with Boateng, Chelsea with Luiz and Barcelona with Pique and Puyol all recent Champions League winners with modern centre backs.

Lennonist

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I thought Forster has been quite poor so far this season.

He was incredible against Barca though.

Actually Forster's form has been a bit inconsistent since the CL campaign last season, but when he's on form he is a good 'keeper, as good as or better than Paul Hart in my view. He should definitely be in the England squad and I think he should be their first pick.

Lennonist

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Honestly some posts have to be seen to be believed. Victor Valdes has decided he wants to leave, not the other way around. Barcelona are desperate to keep him, so desperate that they have kept him at the club this season knowing that he can leave on a free in the summer. Barcelona have reiterated their desire to keep him only a couple of weeks ago, they rate him as highly as any goalkeeper is rated. They realise, like many others do, that Valdes is the perfect Barcelona goalkeeper. You are clearly woefully ill informed if you think Barcelona actually want to get rid of him.

Maybe Celtic and Barca can do a swap plus cash deal at the end of the season so.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Chiellini certainly does it the odd time, not as much as Luiz, Piqué, Silva or Hummels. One tie does not define world football. Brazil and Spain, 1 Confederations Cup, 2 European Championships, 1 World Cup all with modern centre backs. Bayern with Boateng, Chelsea with Luiz and Barcelona with Pique and Puyol all recent Champions League winners with modern centre backs.

Boateng is nowhere near world class, so I'm ignoring that one. Also Brazil winning a nothing cup is, well, nothing. Pique I felt was a very solid defender for a long time but recently he's been very poor and easy to catch out. It can work when you've a player as good as Busquets covering, but I still feel a defender shouldn't go past the halfway line, or he's neglecting his duties. And stop saying "modern centre backs", the likes of Chiellini (no, he doesn't maraud forward, at all), Barzagli, Kompany and Silva are better centre halves than Luiz/Pique, play in the modern game and don't bomb forward recklessly. I suppose you think Barca's play is "modern" as well.

Andersonisgod

Lennonist wrote: »

Maybe Celtic and Barca can do a swap plus cash deal at the end of the season so.

Somehow I think Valdes will be setting his sights rather higher than Celtic.

Lennonist

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Somehow I think Valdes will be setting his sights rather higher than Celtic.

I'd rather keep Forster.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

Boateng is nowhere near world class, so I'm ignoring that one. Also Brazil winning a nothing cup is, well, nothing. Pique I felt was a very solid defender for a long time but recently he's been very poor and easy to catch out. It can work when you've a player as good as Busquets covering, but I still feel a defender shouldn't go past the halfway line, or he's neglecting his duties. And stop saying "modern centre backs", the likes of Chiellini (no, he doesn't maraud forward, at all), Barzagli, Kompany and Silva are better centre halves than Luiz/Pique, play in the modern game and don't bomb forward recklessly. I suppose you think Barca's play is "modern" as well.

Doesn't matter wether he is or not, my point is that they won with him at the heart of their defence, my point is that more and more the biggest clubs want these modern centre backs who can break forward, who do play on the front foot, who can step out in front of the striker, who are aggressive with their passing and who are comfortable in a 1 vs 1 situation and comfortable playing in a high line. Piqué, Luiz, Thiago Silva, Boateng, Puyol, Vertonghen, Ramos ect. All fit the bill and you will notice they play for massive clubs.

Andersonisgod

Lennonist wrote: »

I'd rather keep Forster.

I'd rather you keep Forster and Valdes stayed at Barcelona too but we can't always get what we want.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Doesn't matter wether he is or not, my point is that they won with him at the heart of their defence, my point is that more and more the biggest clubs want these modern centre backs who can break forward, who do play on the front foot, who can step out in front of the striker, who are aggressive with their passing and who are comfortable in a 1 vs 1 situation and comfortable playing in a high line. Piqué, Luiz, Thiago Silva, Boateng, Puyol, Vertonghen, Ramos ect. All fit the bill and you will notice they play for massive clubs.

I think you're missing my point. High lines, fine, aggressive passing, fine, stepping out (a bit) fine. It's when a defender finds himself on the edge of the opponents penalty box that is stupid and reckless. Only two of those on your list do that regularly.

premierstone

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Doesn't matter wether he is or not, my point is that they won with him at the heart of their defence, my point is that more and more the biggest clubs want these modern centre backs who can break forward, who do play on the front foot, who can step out in front of the striker, who are aggressive with their passing and who are comfortable in a 1 vs 1 situation and comfortable playing in a high line. Piqué, Luiz, Thiago Silva, Boateng, Puyol, Vertonghen, Ramos ect. All fit the bill and you will notice they play for massive clubs.

lol sorry you almost had me untill this.

Davaeo09

Jesus lads that'some debate ye have running there.

Both sides have made good points, but it's funny how everyone loves to hop on the band wagon and slate Barca.
We lose possesion duel vs Valecano, but win 4-0 and people call the end of an era.

We go away to Celtic park, on of the trickiest places to play football, come away with a 1-0 win, and all the majority of British media focus on how Neymars lived up to his rep with all the rolling around. Bullsh!t
What about the fact that Mr Brown let his side down majorly, and that he himself lived up to his rep as a lose cannon.

Each to there own, but for me I know I enjoy seeing the little guys get what the deserve. They played the ball well, looked only to score and get a positive away result against a hugely psychical side. It's not the physicality that bothers me it's how some one expects a 68kg 5'7 or 5'8 man to stay on his feet when ya have some one much stronger, bigger charging into you.

Both teams have their styles, neither will change any time soon, but it's apparent which style doesn't look to punch above their weight season after season.

PauloMN

Lennonist wrote: »

Actually Forster's form has been a bit inconsistent since the CL campaign last season, but when he's on form he is a good 'keeper, as good as or better than Paul Hart in my view. He should definitely be in the England squad and I think he should be their first pick.

I do think a lot of that was down to our shaky defense though. Hard for a keeper when the players in front of him are not performing and are being constantly changed. Van Dijk seems to have settled in and that certainly helps. Forster has been excellent for us in the CL.

He's not without his faults, but he's showing better consistency than Boruc did, and he was a decent keeper also (aside from being an utter nutjob).

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Apart from quite a poor final season under Guardiola he has regained his form and this season is arguably playing some of his best football. Why is that an annoying tendency? A centre back that can carry the ball and break through the lines is such an effective tool in modern day football and, IMO, is something that any top centre back should be able to do and few do it better than Piqué and, IMO, there are few more talented centre backs than Gerard Piqué.

There are several centre backs more talented than Gerard Pique

Andersonisgod wrote: »

My not so flippant response is that the philosophy of defenders being big, uncultured players who can't kick a ball and who rely on a unit to defend rather than being confident in a 1 vs 1 situation are drawing to a close while Pique, Luiz and the like are the prototypical modern centre back and, IMO, two of the finest centre backs in world football.

All well and good when you play with a team that plays 80% of it's games against much, much weaker opposition and controls the lion's share of possession. Pique and Luiz aren't even the best CB's in their respective leagues, let alone in the world

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Chiellini certainly does it the odd time, not as much as Luiz, Piqué, Silva or Hummels. One tie does not define world football. Brazil and Spain, 1 Confederations Cup, 2 European Championships, 1 World Cup all with modern centre backs. Bayern with Boateng, Chelsea with Luiz and Barcelona with Pique and Puyol all recent Champions League winners with modern centre backs.

Milan beat Barcelona 2-0 in the CL last year with Mexes and Zapata at the heart of the defence. Does this make them great CB's? Far from it. Your examples are cases of the the rest of the team being able to make up for the deficiencies of the aforementioned players

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Doesn't matter wether he is or not, my point is that they won with him at the heart of their defence, my point is that more and more the biggest clubs want these modern centre backs who can break forward, who do play on the front foot, who can step out in front of the striker, who are aggressive with their passing and who are comfortable in a 1 vs 1 situation and comfortable playing in a high line. Piqué, Luiz, Thiago Silva, Boateng, Puyol, Vertonghen, Ramos etc. All fit the bill and you will notice they play for massive clubs.

Please don't try to squeeze Pique and Puyol in with the likes of T.Silva and Ramos. A CB pairing of Pique and Puyol is not a strong CB pairing and Barcelona have won trophies despite this, not because they're great. It's been no secret that Barca are weak at he back and great offensively, to say they're Goalkeeper and CB's (Puyol was in his time mind you) are the best in their position is just simply wrong

Smithwicks Man

Davaeo09 wrote: »

Jesus lads that'some debate ye have running there.

Both sides have made good points, but it's funny how everyone loves to hop on the band wagon and slate Barca.
We lose possesion duel vs Valecano, but win 4-0 and people call the end of an era.

We go away to Celtic park, on of the trickiest places to play football, come away with a 1-0 win, and all the majority of British media focus on how Neymars lived up to his rep with all the rolling around. Bullsh!t
What about the fact that Mr Brown let his side down majorly, and that he himself lived up to his rep as a lose cannon.

Each to there own, but for me I know I enjoy seeing the little guys get what the deserve. They played the ball well, looked only to score and get a positive away result against a hugely psychical side. It's not the physicality that bothers me it's how some one expects a 68kg 5'7 or 5'8 man to stay on his feet when ya have some one much stronger, bigger charging into you.

Both teams have their styles, neither will change any time soon, but it's apparent which style doesn't look to punch above their weight season after season.

I don't think Barcelona's quality is being debated. Top side and have been great so far this season. How someone can say that the weakest part of the team, ie. Central defence and Goalkeeper are the best players in their position in world football is ridiculous in my opinion.

Dempsey

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'd rather you keep Forster and Valdes stayed at Barcelona too but we can't always get what we want.

Forster might ask to leave Celtic at the end of the season (especially if Hart is still England no.1 playing the way he is) but we all know Valdes is definitely leaving Barcelona! :P

Davaeo09

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Please don't try to squeeze Pique and Puyol in with the likes of T.Silva and Ramos. A CB pairing of Pique and Puyol is not a strong CB pairing and Barcelona have won trophies despite this, not because they're great. It's been no secret that Barca are weak at he back and great offensively, to say they're Goalkeeper and CB's (Puyol was in his time mind you) are the best in their position is just simply wrong

While Ramos is quality, he shows on a regular basis in positioning isn't world class, and he has probably seen more red cards than most of the cb's on this thread added together. I'd have Pique for Barcelona's style of play any day of the week.

Don't see why people condemn the fact he breaks forward. It's not as if he does it regularly against good teams. He does it against weaker teams who stay in defence and don't break forward. I agree he was probably over=rated during the pep era and most of that comes down to the fact he played alongside Abi, Alves and a very fit Puyol.

Also, Valdes has been the best keeper so far this season. I don't see him as the best in the world but on current form he is right up there. Plus I feel that even thought he was never at Cassilias + Neur's level he is still better than 95% of the rest AND even when Barca were in there prime, Valdes was under-rated. People who didn't see Barca week in and week out have no real opinion on this. One only has to look at the Champions League final against Aresnal, the match against PSG last season etc etc and one will see that the forwards always detracted from the fact Victor would pull out stunning saves until the rest of the team could put the ball in the opposite net.

I'm off to work and I wont be coming back into this thread because I have seen this far too often. Fan's will be biased towards their own players, rivals + haters will just look for the most comical reasons to slate.

These Barca players are extraordinary, not every ones fancy but they are a record breaking team. 6 back to back champions league semi's, 3 final wins in 7 years. I'd be happy, and no other team comes close during that span for consistency.

dundalkfc10

Davaeo09 wrote: »

While Ramos is quality, he shows on a regular basis in positioning isn't world class, and he has probably seen more red cards than most of the cb's on this thread added together. I'd have Pique for Barcelona's style of play any day of the week.

Don't see why people condemn the fact he breaks forward. It's not as if he does it regularly against good teams. He does it against weaker teams who stay in defence and don't break forward. I agree he was probably over=rated during the pep era and most of that comes down to the fact he played alongside Abi, Alves and a very fit Puyol.

Also, Valdes has been the best keeper so far this season. I don't see him as the best in the world but on current form he is right up there. Plus I feel that even thought he was never at Cassilias + Neur's level he is still better than 95% of the rest AND even when Barca were in there prime, Valdes was under-rated. People who didn't see Barca week in and week out have no real opinion on this. One only has to look at the Champions League final against Aresnal, the match against PSG last season etc etc and one will see that the forwards always detracted from the fact Victor would pull out stunning saves until the rest of the team could put the ball in the opposite net.

I'm off to work and I wont be coming back into this thread because I have seen this far too often. Fan's will be biased towards their own players, rivals + haters will just look for the most comical reasons to slate.

These Barca players are extraordinary, not every ones fancy but they are a record breaking team. 6 back to back champions league semi's, 3 final wins in 7 years. I'd be happy, and no other team comes close during that span for consistency.

Totally agree but the 2 German sides Bayern and Dortmund are both better than Barca at the minute IMO

Dempsey

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/celtic-keeper-fraser-forster-man-2337601

Celtic keeper Fraser Forster is the man to replace Victor Valdes at Barcelona, says Nou Camp star Dani Alves

Dani Alves wrote:

“Only the club can answer how accurate the reports are on the interest in Forster but if they are true it doesn’t surprise me.

“We have played Celtic three times in a year now and each time Forster has been fantastic.

“He has had to deal with the best attacking players in the world and each time he has done very well – even in the games Celtic lost.

“Barcelona are a club that are always looking to add quality and it’s clear Forster has real quality.

“Obviously no transfers can be done at the moment – but if it is a deal that ever happens then he’d be a good addition.”

He added: “It is an issue for Celtic that by doing so well at the highest level they are showcasing their best players.

“They lost one or two in the summer and with the way Forster is performing in Europe it is only natural there will be interest.”

Interesting comments in light of the Forster/Valdes chat going on in here.

Bohrio

I think the problem here is with the use of the word "average"

adj
1. usual or typical
2. mediocre or inferior his performance was only average

I think I know what you are trying to say, Pique is not the best or one of the top 10 defenders in the world. Although you might be correct, this still doesnt make him average. He is definitively an excellent defender, I mean, you are talking about a guy who was part of the Fifa 2012 Team of the Year, and someone who has been in the Spanish National Team for years and won the 2010 WC and the 2012 UEFA Euro, he can't certainly be considered average. IMO if he would be more consistent and faster he will be perfect. I am not saying he is perfect for Barcelona, but he is doing a good job (when his head is not somewhere else) all things considered.

However, he was quite irregular last season and I am hoping he will wake up this year. Puyol is all heart at the moment but he is not who he was 5 years ago, no complaint here. Masche is doing a good job, he knows his limitations and exploids his virtues but if Pique doesnt wake up it will not be enough and Barcelona will suffer when they play against players such as Bale, Cristiano, etc.

Valdes on the contrary, well he is a different thing, at this point I dont think there is anyone better for Barcelona. He has a combination of skills that matches Barcelonas style (good reflexes, excellent concentration, good with his feet, etc.), however, he doesnt want to stay at Barcelona so they will need to look for a replacement.

I wouldnt trust what Barcelonas newspapers say (nor madrid's for that matter)

gosplan

Bohrio wrote: »

I think the problem here is with the use of the word "average"

No, the problem is that the posters just want an argument and are busy fighting over the most 'state the obvious' point ever.

The difference between people like Luiz and Shawcross is that one can defend AND play well with the ball.

However the footballing instincts need to be curbed sometimes cause they can get a defender in trouble.

Then it's just back to some petty debate about who the best CB's are.

dfx-

Davaeo09 wrote: »

Also, Valdes has been the best keeper so far this season. I don't see him as the best in the world but on current form he is right up there. Plus I feel that even thought he was never at Cassilias + Neur's level he is still better than 95% of the rest AND even when Barca were in there prime, Valdes was under-rated. People who didn't see Barca week in and week out have no real opinion on this. One only has to look at the Champions League final against Aresnal, the match against PSG last season etc etc and one will see that the forwards always detracted from the fact Victor would pull out stunning saves until the rest of the team could put the ball in the opposite net.

I'm not really that much of a fan of Valdes, but any long term Barcelona fan will remember the totally rubbish goalkeepers that Barcelona have had between Zubizarreta and Valdes. Vitor Baia was the only real standout, so when Valdes came along with his relative sanity, he becomes a mainstay.

Looking back at the documentary about Laporta's takeover and Rijkaard's first season and you see mentions of Rustu and Hesp, Pinto in the past few years..

Bohrio

dfx- wrote: »

I'm not really that much of a fan of Valdes, but any long term Barcelona fan will remember the totally rubbish goalkeepers that Barcelona have had between Zubizarreta and Valdes. Vitor Baia was the only real standout, so when Valdes came along with his relative sanity, he becomes a mainstay.

Looking back at the documentary about Laporta's takeover and Rijkaard's first season and you see mentions of Rustu and Hesp, Pinto in the past few years..

I still remember having nightmares with Busquets... one of the worst goalkeepers I have seen in years...

Vitor Bahia was an excellent goalkeeper but however, he never really did well in barcelona, he was quite irregular IMO. He was class though

dfx-

Baia was on a poster on my wall of the 96-97 team, probably my favourite player along with Bakero, Ronaldo and Rivaldo of the 90s

Did Valdes play against Newcastle all those years ago? I remember one of his first games in England (?) and thinking "he makes a difference, have we actually a solid keeper:eek:"

Bohrio

dfx- wrote: »

Baia was on a poster on my wall of the 96-97 team, probably my favourite player along with Bakero, Ronaldo and Rivaldo of the 90s

Did Valdes play against Newcastle all those years ago? I remember one of his first games in England (?) and thinking "he makes a difference, have we actually a solid keeper:eek:"

I think Valdes's first appearance was in the early year 2000 so I am not sure if it was him.

Like you said, Barcelona's been cursed since the 80's in regards goalkeepers, zubizarreta was the best we had for a long long time, so go figure the rest...

Valdes has been the best goalkeeper barcelona has had for a long long long time, we havent had that sort of security in decades, this is the reason why we dont want him to leave, because we are all afraid it might take another 20 - 30 years to find another goalkeeper with the same characteristics. The video below shows what Busquets was like, he was capable of great saves but unfortunately he was also capable of the worst, which use to happen more often unfortunately

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqD2N73VUJA

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