Making the move to minimal runners

pconn062

This is something I have been considering for the last while and I'm interested in hearing peoples views on it. I have a discussion with a few people about the benefits of moving to a more minimal shoe. My physio in particular is a fan of the idea saying that motion controlled shoes are basically making our feet lazy, leaving them more susceptible to injury.
For the record I am an overpronator and do most of my training in a pair of Brooks Adrenaline 13's. While I find these shoes quite comfortable I found that there is too much support in one of the shoes, the right one, and at the start I felt like it was inhibiting my form slightly. I also own a pair of Kinvara 3's which I wear once or twice a week for speed sessions and the occasional easy run.

So I suppose my question is, where do I go from here. I'm looking for something a little more minimal that the Kinvaras but I'm not sure where to start. Also how slowly do introduce this footwear, one day a week and build up gradually? Interested in hearing peoples opinions in this.

By the way I'm not too interested in the hippy "running like or ancestors" fad, I'm really just thinking about strengthening the muscles and tendons in my feet.

Peckham

I used to train in Brooks Adrenalines exclusively and until this summer I ran every race over 5k wearing them. Am very flat footed, so over pronate quite badly.

Slightly different to your plan, but as part of the effort to squeeze a few minutes off my marathon time I started to introduce a lighter shoe early in the summer - Asics DS Racers were recommended to me by Amphibian King. Started off wearing them once a week on 4 mile easy runs, introduced them into faster sessions after a while, and the gradually built up to wearing them on my final 20 miler last weekend. I also replace the insole with an orthotic.

I guess it's all about introducing them very slowly, but they definitely make a difference - both speed and recovery!

BeepBeep67

I've made a very slow transition over the few years.
I find the Inov-8 range great from a progressive perspective as you have 9mm, 6mm, 3mm and zero options to guide you through the journey.
I started with a pair Flite 230's which were 9mm versus my normal 14mm, I wore them initially for recovery runs on grass once per week and then for sessions on grass, in 2011 this made up 10% of my running, but maybe 15% from when I purchased them.
In 2012 I added the Road X255 (9mm) when I had a PF problem (they have a fascia band support) and enjoyed them so much I moved quickly to the Road X233 (6mm) and then added the TrailRoc 245 (3mm), I still didn't go made on the mileage, but they made up 40% of 2012 mileage.
This year I've added a 2nd pair of X233's (i love this shoe), Kinvara 3 (4mm), X178 (3mm) and Saucony A5 (4mm) with about 50% of mileage coming from these and the majority of the rest in Brooks ST5.

I'll probably gradually move towards 60-70% of total mileage in 6mm or less and I'll be happy with that.
Personally I feel it's improved my form and I've had far fewer niggles in the last 18 months, but take your time and stretch those calves.

sconhome

pconn062 wrote: »

This is something I have been considering for the last while and I'm interested in hearing peoples views on it. I have a discussion with a few people about the benefits of moving to a more minimal shoe. My physio in particular is a fan of the idea saying that motion controlled shoes are basically making our feet lazy, leaving them more susceptible to injury.
For the record I am an overpronator and do most of my training in a pair of Brooks Adrenaline 13's. While I find these shoes quite comfortable I found that there is too much support in one of the shoes, the right one, and at the start I felt like it was inhibiting my form slightly. I also own a pair of Kinvara 3's which I wear once or twice a week for speed sessions and the occasional easy run.

So I suppose my question is, where do I go from here. I'm looking for something a little more minimal that the Kinvaras but I'm not sure where to start. Also how slowly do introduce this footwear, one day a week and build up gradually? Interested in hearing peoples opinions in this.

By the way I'm not too interested in the hippy "running like or ancestors" fad, I'm really just thinking about strengthening the muscles and tendons in my feet.

Same as the guys have suggested above, slowly, slowly and give yourself plenty of time.

If you want to have a look at my blog (linked in the signature) I've documented my own trip to including minimalist shoes in my training and also why I still rely on my guidance shoes too. Its the same advice I would give to any customer on making the transition.

Like beepbeep check out spurscormac who also has plenty of advice on how he made the transition over the course of 2 -3 years now.

Step by step is the way to go.

pconn062

Thanks for that guys, really interesting stuff. I must look into those Innov-8's BB, never heard of them before. I didn't realise the Kinvara 3's were so low (4mm), they are like my second shoes that I wear quite regularly and I really like them. Might invest in another pair of them and try to wear them a bit more often than now, maybe on some easy runs. I also have a pair of Adidas flats that I wear although I am going to change brand as I find the toe box too small and they always cut the feet off me. Thinking of the Saucony A5's.

Outside

Or if you are willing to accept very low mileage for a while, just go straight into as light a shoe as possible and build mileage back up slowly. Personally I went this way because I didn't believe I was running correctly in the first place when I was getting a few niggles for short runs so I went "cold turkey" from all cushioned shoes and built mileage up from pretty much zero. My thinking was that if I did some of my mileage in cushioned shoes again it'd be straight back to old running form and back to old habits - which I wanted a complete break from. I now do all my running in light racing flats and have never felt stronger.

A few mm makes a huge difference to the calves so be prepared for painful stair ascents for a while! And also listen very closely to the plantar fascia. This is generally the limiting factor in the amount of mileage you can do on zero support shoes. Stretch often and if it's getting very sore, don't run. It takes months to build this up properly.

To be honest as once as your not getting injured, I wouldn't change a thing. The body is very adaptable but has a very strict "use it or loose it" policy on muscle activation.

If you put something in place to support a "weak" part of the foot, it's going to get even weaker.

BeepBeep67

pconn062 wrote: »

Thanks for that guys, really interesting stuff. I must look into those Innov-8's BB, never heard of them before. I didn't realise the Kinvara 3's were so low (4mm), they are like my second shoes that I wear quite regularly and I really like them. Might invest in another pair of them and try to wear them a bit more often than now, maybe on some easy runs. I also have a pair of Adidas flats that I wear although I am going to change brand as I find the toe box too small and they always cut the feet off me. Thinking of the Saucony A5's.

I had the Adizero Pro4's and moved to the Saucony A5's, same weight, but a little more upper I feel which lends itself to a 'roomier feel'.

spurscormac

As AK says, I'm another fan of the Inov-8 range, and made almost the same transition as BeepBeep, the difference being that I only have inov-8 shoes.
You can probably find a more in depth post from the past on this, but in summary I transitioned as follows:
Road-X 255 (9mm drop) used for all runs for about 7/8 months (wasnt doing lsrs at this time)
Road-X 233 (6mm drop) started on shorter runs, but its now my go to shoe for most sessions
Trailroc 245 (3mm drop) got them 3 months after the 233s, but while not used much, they for anything off road, cross country or training on rough paths
Road-X-Treme 178 (3mm) introduced about 9 months after the 233s for 5/8k races and speedwork/track sessions. Might try a 10k in them

I still use the 255s for long runs, and sometimes a recovery run, but will eventually phase them out and replace with 233s. If Inov-8 bring out a similar shoe to the X-Treme 178, ie 3mm drop with more durable sole that I can use for regular training, I'd go with that& use the 233s for longer stuff.

I like inov-8 as you can see, the shoes just work for me, shape of the last & space at the forefoot. I also liked how starting with the 255s & later the 233s, they naturally encourage you to a mid/forefoot gait. If you land on your heel, you'll notice it, but there's enough cushioning that it doesn't actually hurt.
I'm undecided at this point if I'll ever go beyond the 3mm drop as far as a zero drop shoe. I'm yet to be convinced of any huge benefits other than tiny weight difference.

Note: I had done Catriona McKiernan's Chi Running workshop and was looking to get a shoe that would help me improve my gait and lessen my heel striking, so I guess it was a combination of that and the shoes that made it possible.
Also, I look to get minimal shoes for everyday wear, work or lounging around the house - I try to get as flat a shoe as possible.

rom

So what are the options to move more minimal from asics ds racers ?

spurscormac

rom wrote: »

So what are the options to move more minimal from asics ds racers ?

According to running warehouse, the latest DS Racers are 10mm drop.
Looking at the rest of the Asics range, I don't see anything between that and 4mm, which is quite a difference.

You can go with other brands if you like, Inov-8s are mine, but there are other shoes out there with similar traits.

AKW is your best bet for knowledge of other brands.

pconn062

Thanks guys, that's all great stuff. I think what I'll do for now is introduce the Kinvaras a bit more every week, using them on some easy runs. Then when they wear out I will look into some of the innov-8, I am intrigues by them now.

@Outisde, thanks for the info. I have had a lot of niggles this year in my calves and knees, more so than other years so this has an impact on why I'm looking to change to a more minimal shoe, to try and help strengthen my lower legs and feet. Obviously with my calf issues it will have to be a slow transition and I will be very (read over!) cautious.

sconhome

rom wrote: »

So what are the options to move more minimal from asics ds racers ?

The big question is 'minimal' or 'minimalist'.

I see a very definite split in the definitions of the market with Vibram / Hatori / iNOV8 Bare X etc being 'minimal' and then you see the likes of the Hoka as 'minimalist'.

For me being minimal is all about letting the foot function in its natural range of motion, enabling joint movement, strengthening connective tissue junctions and so on. The new Puma Mobium being a prime example of a 'tool' to include in your training regime.

Minimalist shoes are more about the comfort of cushioning but having some flexibility, minimal structure, and a relatively flat heel to toe profile.

Stark

There's a good workshop coming up in November: http://www.championseverywhere.com/injury-free-running-registration . Been there before and while bits are quite new-agey, there's a lot of practical advice and drills for running in minimalist shoes without getting injured. The shoes they recommend are generally Vivos as they come in zero-drop and have very wide toe boxes so your toes can splay out when you run. They recommended Inov-8 bare-x 180 and Merrell trail gloves as runners up.

rom

I wear vivobarefoot and I would like to run in something similar or even those. They are great.

tunguska

Im in the process of transitioning to minimalist shoes myself pconn. I ran a 20mile race at the weekend in the brooks T7s and it went well. I was a step behind most people in that I've been wearing orthotics for 3 years and so I had to come off those first, then graduate to lighter shoes. I wear the adrenalines aswell on easy runs and the T7s for sessions and races. After the marathon my Im gonna go at it full whack and run my easy runs in the T7s and use asics piranhas for speedwork, but at the same time do one or two runs a week in the NB minimus. Its definitely gonna require a step back for a while, which Im ok with because I can literally feel my feet getting stronger and stronger without the orthotics and through the use of lighter shoes.
Basically pconn I think you have to be willing to take a step back and take a hit on your training and race times in the short term so that in the long term you're a better more efficient runner.

sconhome

tunguska wrote: »

Im in the process of transitioning to minimalist shoes myself pconn. I ran a 20mile race at the weekend in the brooks T7s and it went well. I was a step behind most people in that I've been wearing orthotics for 3 years and so I had to come off those first, then graduate to lighter shoes. I wear the adrenalines aswell on easy runs and the T7s for sessions and races. After the marathon my Im gonna go at it full whack and run my easy runs in the T7s and use asics piranhas for speedwork, but at the same time do one or two runs a week in the NB minimus. Its definitely gonna require a step back for a while, which Im ok with because I can literally feel my feet getting stronger and stronger without the orthotics and through the use of lighter shoes.
Basically pconn I think you have to be willing to take a step back and take a hit on your training and race times in the short term so that in the long term you're a better more efficient runner.

As I mentioned above, you need to be careful about definitions and what people are looking for (not having a go tunguska) the T7 is a light racing shoe not a minimalist runner.

The heel to toe drop in those is a surprising 12mm. :eek:

This is the same as the majority of traditional technical shoes of old. Most current training shoes are 10mm or even 8mm now.

Bear in mind due to the lightness of the materials and structure the T7 will only be good for maybe 200 miles and thats it. Very easy to over cook them in training and end up injured.

ThePiedPiper

Something I'd be afraid to do myself for fear of injury, but if I was going down that road, I'd go very gradually. I transitioned from Kayanos to Elixir very successfully this year. But, I'd been using the Elixir sparingly for a few years, so I knew what I was getting with them. Also, I did it at a time of the year when I knew that mileage was going to be quite low, in the 25-30 mile per week range. I definitely found a bit of adjustment to running 100% in the lighter shoe, but perfectly happy with it now. Tried a 20 miler in the Kayano during the summer, and they felt terrible, so they've been consigned to history now.

Was considering further transitioning onto the GS/Kinvara/similar, but I think I'll leave well enough alone for the time being.

tunguska

amphkingwest wrote: »

As I mentioned above, you need to be careful about definitions and what people are looking for (not having a go tunguska) the T7 is a light racing shoe not a minimalist runner.

The heel to toe drop in those is a surprising 12mm. :eek:

This is the same as the majority of traditional technical shoes of old. Most current training shoes are 10mm or even 8mm now.

Bear in mind due to the lightness of the materials and structure the T7 will only be good for maybe 200 miles and thats it. Very easy to over cook them in training and end up injured.

Ah yeah I know the T7s aren't minimalist, the point I was making in relation to myself was that I was graduating bit by bit to the point were I could run in zero drop shoes. I know some people advocate going straight to the zeros and skipping a step by step transition but for me thats too risky so my starting point is the T7s then I'll go for smaller and smaller heels as my calves and feet adapt to the drop.
In regards to miles on the clock, personally I prefer to ratchet up the miles beyond what is conventionally recommended. Again Im not recommending or advising anybody else do this, its just a personal preference. I find that the more beat up my shoes get, the stronger my feet and legs become and the more comfortable the shoes are. I've had my current pair of T7s for about 18 months and theres a lot more than 200miles on them but I find that the more I wear them the better they feel.

Ruu

I changed primarily to minimalist/barefoot at the end of last year. I wear NB Minimus 00 or Vibrams on the road for 5ks to marathons and NB Minimus Trail MT10 for off road stuff. I ran my first marathon in the NB 00's in April and PR'd at 3:37 (I ran a 50 miler 3 weeks previous, mind you) It took some getting used to, feel like I am wearing a boot anytime I wear a regular trainer! Good luck, lots of great advice already stated here.

SnappyDresser

Minimalist shoes will only lead to injuries long term. Get good supporting and cushioning runners and forget this silly fad.

rom

i008787 wrote: »

Minimalist shoes will only lead to injuries long term. Get good supporting and cushioning runners and forget this silly fad.

This is based on facts?

spurscormac

i008787 wrote: »

Minimalist shoes will only lead to injuries long term. Get good supporting and cushioning runners and forget this silly fad.

To each their own. Man has evolved over tens of thousands of years to run/walk barefoot. A few hundred years of "protecting" ourselves in built up shoes and runners I would argue has done more damage than making a graduated move towards minimal running style.

From personal experience, I had niggles and injury problems every few months in structured shoes. Since moving towards minimal shoes over the course of 2 years I've only once had a niggle of any significance, and that was more to do with running too far too fast after a couple of months of much reduced intermittent training.
Even with that, I was fit again after a week.

Many will disagree, and if structured suits you and you're not getting injured, then I wouldn't bother changing either.
However to rule it out of hand as a source of injury is a false accusation.

There's 2 right ways to make the move:
1. Gradually reduce your heel-toe drop over time.
2. Go straight to minimal (zero drop) shoes, but pare back your mileage and build slowly over time.

If you don't do one of the above, you're asking for trouble, but that's the practitioners fault not the practice itself.

TFBubendorfer

RunForestRun wrote: »

Was considering further transitioning onto the GS/Kinvara/similar, but I think I'll leave well enough alone for the time being.

Funnily enough that's exactly the shoes I have been wearing for the last couple of years, but I would not really call either of them "minimalist". Some people call them transitioning shoes, and I think the Kinvara was advertised as such when it first came out.

I have no intentions of minimalising any further, though.

ThePiedPiper

Agreed Thomas, I wouldn't call them minimalist either, but its as far as I'd be willing to go at this point. I can't even convince myself to run the marathon in the GS, so for now, I'll keep them for occasional training and half marathon races.

I'm of the view of 'if it ain't broke, then don't fix it'. Hence, the 7 years I spent wearing Asics Kayanos, when it was glaringly obvious I didn't particularly need such a structured, heavy runner. I might get away with a lighter, more minimal shoe than the Mizuno Elixir but minimalism would be a bit too far of a stretch for me.