Novice Hill Walker (Scouts)

newsoldierblue

Hi All,
Planning to introduce some Cub Scouts to Hill Walking in Wicklow.
Their ages range from 9 to 11 years.
We plan to give the 11 year old one more difficult tasks.
Did the Sugar Loaf last year with my 8 year daughter so
looking for something up a level and then up again.
I am a complete novice in this but will take a 2 day course in Glendalough
in November.
Any suggestions very welcome.
Thanks a mil.

fergalr

newsoldierblue wrote: »

Hi All,
Planning to introduce some Cub Scouts to Hill Walking in Wicklow.
Their ages range from 9 to 11 years.
We plan to give the 11 year old one more difficult tasks.
Did the Sugar Loaf last year with my 8 year daughter so
looking for something up a level and then up again.
I am a complete novice in this but will take a 2 day course in Glendalough
in November.
Any suggestions very welcome.
Thanks a mil.

Please bear in mind that people like me, reading your post, don't know you as a person, or whether you are inexperienced and liable to make a mistake, or whether you are very cautiou and experienced with the scouts. So don't take any of the following personally, because its general advice that I have to give, on the off chance you haven't thought this through:

You'll need a decent group of adults to safely bring a group of 11 year olds into the hills.
(You'll need to have sufficient numbers to rescue a kid with a broken ankle while also keeping all the other kids safe, stopping them getting cold, etc. Even if the kids seem very confident, and adult, if someone is injured and the weather gets bad, it might all go very wrong.)

If I was doing something like that, I would take the group up relatively safe places like Three Rock first, and gradually and slowly work up as the whole group got more confident and experienced. (Relatively safe - never without risk, depending on the group and the weather thats in it.)


I'm wary that you are saying you are a novice, and want to go 'up two levels' with a bunch of cub scouts, even after a weekends training (its great that you are doing the training, btw, you'll be way better able to assess this stuff after training).

That's probably just me being very careful about your post here: but I would suggest it could be dangerous to bring a group of cub scouts up Lug, or really anywhere more dangerous than Sugarloaf, especially from this time of year on, if you, or someone else in your group of adult leaders, isn't pretty experienced.


I suggest that, seeing as you are doing training, the best thing to do is to do your training, and tell your trainer what you plan on doing, and ask your trainer what they think is a good idea. Your trainer will have spent time with you, and be able to give you much better advice on locations to suit your experience level, and that of your group, than people online can.

I'll be blunt.

You should think of it in terms of, what would you say to a Court if something goes wrong and someone breaks an ankle and sues. And so if you can say you did everything by the book, right number of people with you to supervise, proper training, gradual progress etc. then you may be fine. If you say that you were a complete novice and you were out walking with one daughter once, you will be slaughtered.

You see with adults you can introduce other obstacles to liability, get them to sign disclaimers, tell them it's their risk etc. etc. With kids the duty of care is very very high, not absolute, accidents can happen, but still very onerous.

blatantrereg

Yes definitely have a few adults there. Include a female so people are less likely to suspect you of being paedophiles.

Sauve

Mod

Less of the sensationalism please.
The OP asked for advice on hillwalking, not on the legalities of taking children walking.

Scouters adhere to extremely strict child protection rules, let's just leave that end of things to them please.

Hmmmmmmm.

I don't think it is bad or wrong advice to say "be very very careful taking kids out because of the exposure to liability" particularly when he is seeking advice on boards.ie. I would have thought the standard modding policy here would be that it's bad to answer particular queries on individual events because of the potential issues for this site. "Why did you, a novice, bring a group of kids up a mountain?" "Well I checked on Boards.ie and they said twould be fine". Being in the Scouts is no defence.

Sauve

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hmmmmmmm.

I don't think it is bad or wrong advice to say "be very very careful taking kids out because of the exposure to liability" particularly when he is seeking advice on boards.ie. I would have thought the standard modding policy here would be that it's bad to answer particular queries on individual events because of the potential issues for this site. "Why did you, a novice, bring a group of kids up a mountain?" "Well I checked on Boards.ie and they said twould be fine". Being in the Scouts is no defence.

Of course it's not bad or wrong advice Conor, I was replying to more posts than yours there.
My point is that the Scouts as an organisation have more than enough rules of their own to cover this side of things, so it's probably best to leave that to those who know the rules.

Now, back to the topic of where are good places for the OP to bring novices walking.

dogmatix

1. The spink and back via the miners road. You'd have to watch the kids on the boardwalk though as any messing and tomfoolery could have serious consequences.
2. Bray head - up to the cross, along the top and down to the cliff path at windgates. A short scramble coming down from the head towards windgates so you would have to watch the kids at this point also.
3. Trooperstown hill is an easy stretch, easier then the sugar loaf but has the advantage of varied terrain such as open mountian, forest and river if you plan your route. Watch out for motocross bikers however as they love Trooperstown also.

DubOnHoliday

newsoldierblue wrote: »

Hi All,
Planning to introduce some Cub Scouts to Hill Walking in Wicklow.
Their ages range from 9 to 11 years.
We plan to give the 11 year old one more difficult tasks.
Did the Sugar Loaf last year with my 8 year daughter so
looking for something up a level and then up again.
I am a complete novice in this but will take a 2 day course in Glendalough
in November.
Any suggestions very welcome.
Thanks a mil.

First of all, fair play to you for giving your time so that kids can get out and experience the outdoors. From my time as a venture scout and leader, I developed a love of the outdoors. During your course in Glendalough, you should find trails to suit all levels of abilites for that age range. However, I would not be bringing scouts on the spinc if I was you. A walk up to the miners village , or taking the green rd route by turning left after the bridge at the visitors centre and up the zig zags, finishing at the waterfall would be challenging enough for that age group.

Orion

I assume it's the MS1 course you thinking of? It's an excellent course and will give you a good grounding in being on the mountains and basic mountain skills such as mapreading, compass reading, and features/dangers to watch out for. SI also do courses occasionally in hillwalking and mountain safety.

In the meantime stick with waymarked trails until you're more confident in being on the hills. There are plenty out there - including the Wicklow Way and Dublin Mountains Way (both have maps available from http://www.eastwestmapping.ie/ and osi.ie).

One handy option is the horseshoe from Larch Hill. It's a loop. You come out of Larch Hill at the main gate and link up to the DMW which leads you by Fairy Castle and then down to Kilmashogue Car Park. At the car park you turn left up the hill and after about 1km you hop a wall in to the Cub Field in Larch Hill.

Another one we did with the scouts as part of our County Shield was a hike from the Knockree Hostel along the Wicklow Way - over Prince William's Seat and Fairy Castle (optional) and end up at the cub field again.

Crone Wood and Maulin is a lovely hike too. It's not waymarked but does have a well defined trail. Great view of the Powerscourt Waterfall from above as well. This is a looped walk so you end up back where you started.

If you're a new group why not link in with another group nearby for a hike - they may have more experienced hillwalkers who could assist. Where are you based?

BeardySi

I'm gonna make a reasonable jump and assume you're an SI group... I don't know SI rules and I can't access enough of their site to find out, but have you checked out any necessary training and permits you need to have to take kids hillwalking?

The rules I operate under (UK Scout Association) will be different, but I don't imagine yours will be a whole lot different.

To take a group hillwalking without having a permit, we have to stick to terrain below 500m which is within a half hours walk of a road - pretty limiting. Beyond that we need one of several grades of permit, which have to be assessed on competency and experience.

Have you considered ratios? I'd be looking at one leader for 6-8 kids maximum for taking novice cubs walking.

If you (and presumably the rest of your leadership team) are completely inexperienced, I'd be looking at hiking with another pack, or you and some of your leaders joining in on a few hikes with more experienced walkers before taking the kids anywhere.

I've found that with totally inexperienced kids a tough trail in a park can give them enough of a challenge. What you're really looking to do is get them walking distances and learning the basics of navigation. Bagging peaks is well and good, but shouldn't the the object of the exercise. Once they have a few miles under their belt they (and you) will be more confident in hitting the hills proper...

hmmm

Djouce, from several sides has good straightforward paths.

From the Pier Gates you can walk around parts of the Lugalla estate.

There's parts of the St Kevins Way that are very doable (say from Wicklow gap to Glendalough).

Pretty much everything on the Wicklow way is straightforward.

fergalr

Sauve wrote: »

Of course it's not bad or wrong advice Conor, I was replying to more posts than yours there.
My point is that the Scouts as an organisation have more than enough rules of their own to cover this side of things, so it's probably best to leave that to those who know the rules.

Now, back to the topic of where are good places for the OP to bring novices walking.

While its sort-of implied, the OP did not actually say that they are a scout leader, or that the activity is done in the framework of the Scouts.

I wrote my initial reply in the context of a thread about Lugnaquila before the post was moved, and in reply to the OP, a self described novice, looking for hills harder than Sugarloaf - Sugarloaf already being outside the "below 500m which is within a half hours walk of a road" limits mentioned by Treadhead.

In that context, I think it'd be irresponsible not to advise some caution.

BarryD

I'd be careful as well as regards bringing minors out on hill walking trips although this is largely how I got an interest in the hills, school walking group and for that I am grateful. The important things are:
- improve your own skills & experience, you need to be completely comfortable
- reconnoitre the route, be familiar with it and potential hazards
- the weather can make a big impact, be prepared to cancel and/or change plans
- make it fun but keep an eye out all the time to prevent issues becoming a problem before they do - this requires experience and common sense
- have capacity in hand to be able to deal with difficulties

What makes hillwalking different from normal scout activities is potential distance from help if anything goes wrong. A child trips and breaks their arm up at Larch Hill - tough but help is near at hand and they can be sent off to hospital fairly readily. Same thing happens up on e.g. Djouce and it's a different ball game.