Shakhtar Donetsk vs Manchester United k/o 19.45 Sky.

CSF

keith16 wrote: »

This is bizarre logic. The type of logic employed by other clubs like Chelsea and City have become laughing stocks the way they get through managers.

Instant and sustained success? Sorry, I'm a football fan with realistic expectations, not a child at Christmas who hasn't got the latest iphone.

You know there is a middleground between the sack a manager at the flip of the hat (note that I haven't mentioned once that Moyes should be sacked) and deciding that a manager deserves more than a season just because. If United have a pisspoor season this season after destroying everything in their path last season, fingers need to be pointed in the right direction which is Moyes, and unless he shows some serious potential for improvement, you would be looking at bringing in someone else for season 2 who can actually handle the mantle of taking over from the greatest manager of all time.

Headshot

So were we at least better than the west brom game?

uncleoswald

Danye wrote: »

What does Moyes need to figure out??

He needs to build his own team. He currently has a team that the greatest manager of all time somehow over achieved with and I think it would take a special kind of idiot not to understand what a huge task awaited him.

I'm also baffled by the outrage over tonight's performance. Seemed completely in keeping with united in Europe over recent years, right down to team selection/tactics. We have been awful to watch in Europe for years. Does everyone suddenly forget that Ferguson consistently picked Val over Nani and Kagawa too?

kryogen

BloodBath wrote: »

A loss to Sunderland at the weekend should see a good campaign to get rid of him. I'm already behind it.

Have a word with yourself then

NukaCola

Tactics/Team selection aside, thats a decent point for Utd.......

CSF

uncleoswald wrote: »

He needs to build his own team.

He had an entire close season to make real improvements to the team, and only brought in Fellaini.

collie0708

CSF wrote: »

This is easily the most ridiculous statement I've ever read. This team won the Premiership at a canter last season and would have been in the business end of the Champions League if not for a really dodgy decision.

Do you really believe we can win the league,we simply do not have the players at the moment all our main competitors have significantly streghthened and we have not. We have a poor midfield and we are overly reliant on Rvp. The club themselves have based our financial projections on finishing third so my statement is far from rediiculous

BloodBath

jamesbere wrote: »

So you don't believe in giving a manager a chance.

He's getting his chance but if he continues this poorly come January he has to go.

collie0708 wrote: »

To be fair he needs to get at least 1 to 2 seasons,doing something stupid like sacking our manager after 7 league clubs will only destabilise our club

No he doesn't. We can't let him do permanent damage to the club. He's already doing that at the moment.

kryogen wrote: »

Have a word with yourself then

Go support Everton if your expectations are so low.

CSF

collie0708 wrote: »

CSF wrote: »

This is easily the most ridiculous statement I've ever read. This team won the Premiership at a canter last season and would have been in the business end of the Champions League if not for a really dodgy decision.

Do you really believe we can win the league,we simply do not have the players at the moment all our main competitors have significantly streghthened and we have not. We have a poor midfield and we are overly reliant on Rvp. The club themselves have based our financial projections on finishing third so my statement is far from rediiculous

Saying that finishing 4th and qualifying for the Champions League KO stages is a good achievement is absolutely ridiculous. It would be the worst league achievement for 23 years, how can that be considered good? Also, if United haven't strengthened and have a poor midfield then surely that is the manager's fault for not addressing it sufficiently having had a whole summer to do so?

collie0708

CSF wrote: »

collie0708 wrote: »

Saying that finishing 4th and qualifying for the Champions League KO stages is a good achievement is absolutely ridiculous. It would be the worst league achievement for 23 years, how can that be considered good? Also, if United haven't strengthened and have a poor midfield then surely that is the manager's fault for not addressing it sufficiently having had a whole summer to do so?

So where do you believe we should be finishing in the league and cl???

bad2dabone

collie0708 wrote: »

CSF wrote: »

So where do you believe we should be finishing in the league and cl???

United's place is first or second in the league. or at least it was.
CL, United should always be in with a chance of winning it. They're the top team for the past 2 decades in one of the top 4 leagues in Europe.

uncleoswald

CSF wrote: »

So Moyes is getting a freepass from some United fans despite shocking results and football because Ferguson told them to? That makes **** all sense. Fergie's judgement of a manager has never been so strong if you look back at some of his previous recommendations. He seems to look for managers with similar qualities to himself, but none of those managers have his best qualities.

Ferguson recommended McLeish for the Villa job, I know he is not faultless;) However the point is not about thinking Moyes is definitely the right man for the job but more about giving him time, that means not jumping on his back after a decent point away from home in Europe in a performance not unlike we have seen in Ferguson's era.

CSF wrote: »

He had an entire close season to make real improvements to the team, and only brought in Fellaini.

Ok I think we have completely different timeframes when it comes to a reasonable amount of time to build a team.

Also I have no idea who's fault this summer's transfer mess was, I suspect you don't either.

LuckyLloyd

retalivity wrote: »

I would actually laugh if he came out afterwards and said it was a historic result

Well, it's one of the finer results of Moyes's career - certainly his finest European result. Which says it all...

CSF

collie0708 wrote: »

So where do you believe we should be finishing in the league and cl???

I think you could finish 3rd and say it wasn't a good season by any means, but that you could live with it as long as you weren't too far off the other 2. Saying that finishing 4th is a good achievement is ****ing ludicrous stuff though, head in the sand kind of thing.

In the Champions League, like all cups it depends on the draw, United have not got a bad draw at all and the expectation should be to win the group. Based on that the expectation should be quarter final minimum, anything other than that would be disappointing. Of course, if United were to win their group and someone like Bayern Munich, Real, Barca managed to come 2nd in their group and knocked United out in the first KO stage, you could accept that, as it is bad luck.

Saying that it is a good achievement just to get out of a group containing Sociedad, Leverkusen and Shakhtar is bizarre notions though. Anything else would be awful stuff.

CSF

uncleoswald wrote: »

Ferguson recommended McLeish for the Villa job, I know he is not faultless;) However the point is not about thinking Moyes is definitely the right man for the job but more about giving him time, that means not jumping on his back after a decent point away from home in Europe in a performance not unlike we have seen in Ferguson's era.

Ok I think we have completely different timeframes when it comes to a reasonable amount of time to build a team.

Also I have no idea who's fault this summer's transfer mess was, I suspect you don't either.

I imagine we have the same timeframes, or similar enough. There needs to be a short-term, a medium-term and a long-term. Moyes has completely failed at the short-term planning.

Also, is Moyes about to become the first manager in my memory to be given a free pass on poor transfer activity? Why so many excuses?

uncleoswald

CSF wrote: »

Also, is Moyes about to become the first manager in my memory to be given a free pass on poor transfer activity? Why so many excuses?

This bit is hyperbolic bull. Lots and lots of chairmen get the praise/criticism for transfer activity.

CSF

uncleoswald wrote: »

This bit is hyperbolic bull. Lots and lots of chairmen get the praise/criticism for transfer activity.

But I didn't say that the chairman doesn't have a role to play aswell, to me it is simple enough, if a club have good transfer activity, that reflects well on both the chairman and the manager, if the club have bad transfer activity that reflects poorly on both the chairman and the manager.

Danye

uncleoswald wrote: »

He needs to build his own team. He currently has a team that the greatest manager of all time somehow over achieved with and I think it would take a special kind of idiot not to understand what a huge task awaited him.

I'm also baffled by the outrage over tonight's performance. Seemed completely in keeping with united in Europe over recent years, right down to team selection/tactics. We have been awful to watch in Europe for years. Does everyone suddenly forget that Ferguson consistently picked Val over Nani and Kagawa too?

That's not what I asked?

In anyway as somebody pointed out he's had all summer to add to the squad and only tried to sign players on the final day of the window.

kryogen

BloodBath wrote: »

Go support Everton if your expectations are so low.

Go support someone like Chelsea or City if you wanna be a spoilt little bitch.

uncleoswald

Danye wrote: »

That's not what I asked?

What does he need to figure out? He needs to find out what players and formations work for him and with each other. There is no road map to it either, look at Mourinho and Anchilotti this year and they have tons of experience and winner medals. Personally I don't see why Val, Giggs et all keep getting picked but then Ferguson kept picking them as well. Maybe it's something to do with what they do in training. If anything I think he needs to sever his ties with Ferguson even more as it's very suspicious that Ferguson's favourites keep getting picked.

In anyway as somebody pointed out he's had all summer to add to the squad and only tried to sign players on the final day of the window.

All we know is that Moyes had some transfer targets and the club seemed to make a last ditched balls of it all.

Danye

uncleoswald wrote: »

What does he need to figure out? He needs to find out what players and formations work for him and with each other. There is no road map to it either, look at Mourinho and Anchilotti this year and they have tons of experience and winner medals. Personally I don't see why Val, Giggs et all keep getting picked but then Ferguson kept picking them as well. Maybe it's something to do with what they do in training. If anything I think he needs to sever his ties with Ferguson even more as it's very suspicious that Ferguson's favourites keep getting picked.

He's there since July 1st. Surely you don't need until October to find out your best 11 and how to play them. He stated early on that he needed to strengthen the midfield. How did he spot that early on and yet notice anything else?

Unless he was locked in solitary confinement for the last few years he should now Uniteds strengths and weakness. Sure as Everton manager he would of scouting reports done and how to expose they're weakness.

I agree with you above severing ties with Fergie or at the very least stop mentioning him in your interviews. It's like he views Fergie as God like.

uncleoswald wrote: »

All we know is that Moyes had some transfer targets and the club seemed to make a last ditched balls of it all.

How do you know that? Even if he had he had to accept some responsibility for not getting his targets in. He should be onto the board to make sure things are happening.

bucketybuck

Danye wrote: »

He's there since July 1st. Surely you don't need until October to find out your best 11 and how to play them. He stated early on that he needed to strengthen the midfield. How did he spot that early on and yet notice anything else?

I think that David Moyes currently has no idea what his best eleven is, but more to the point, I think he is probably quite shocked at just how lacking some areas of the squad he inherited are.

I suspect he was itching to start working with a title winning side, and has had a rude awakening now that he is seeing some of them up close. There is a lot of quality there, but an equal amount of dead weight.

All just my opinion based on my thoughts, but if Moyes sticks around you might see a lot of player changes in the next few years.

Danye

bucketybuck wrote: »

I think that David Moyes currently has no idea what his best eleven is, but more to the point, I think he is probably quite shocked at just how lacking some areas of the squad he inherited are.

I suspect he was itching to start working with a title winning side, and has had a rude awakening now that he is seeing some of them up close. There is a lot of quality there, but an equal amount of dead weight.

All just my opinion based on my thoughts, but if Moyes sticks around you might see a lot of player changes in the next few years.

But surely everybody can agree that Young, Valencia, Wellbeck, Giggs and Cleverly don't belong in the starting 11. So even if he didnt know his best 11 surely he should at least know these aren't good enough to be in the 11.

bucketybuck

Danye wrote: »

But surely everybody can agree that Young, Valencia, Wellbeck, Giggs and Cleverly don't belong in the starting 11. So even if he didnt know his best 11 surely he should at least know these aren't good enough to be in the 11.

You would think so, yes. But the number of changes being made from game to game would suggest that he is desperately trying to throw formations together and see what works.

The last few games have seen 5/6/7 changes every game at a time when he really needs to get a team settled and picking up points.

JRant

Danye wrote: »

But surely everybody can agree that Young, Valencia, Wellbeck, Giggs and Cleverly don't belong in the starting 11. So even if he didnt know his best 11 surely he should at least know these aren't good enough to be in the 11.

In fairness to Moyes he has given a lot of players game time and is slowly coming to grips with the squad. I'm sure he'll strengthen come January but until then he needs to get real about some of his selections.
Giggs is not and never has been a CM, why he is featuring so much is beyond me. Time for more coaching role and much less playing if you ask me.
Cleverly, Anderson, Young and ,sad to say this as I like him a lot, Tony V have to go or at least only be used in emergencies.

That's 5 of Fergies players that need getting rid of ASAP and that's just in midfield. Given time I feel Moyes will be more than capable of turning it around and building his own team, unfortunately I feel he'll be gone at the end of the season as the pressure mounting on him is already huge.

When Fergie said the new manager will need time and support it probably had more to do with the scale of rebuilding needed than anyone ever realised.

Hotblack Desiato

CSF wrote: »

This is bizarre logic. Not the last sentence but the first. Why does he need at least 1-2 seasons? You need to earn that by doing well. If United are still doing this badly in January, why would you stick by, in hope rather than expectation?

Remind me how many seasons Ferguson got before he won anything?

CSF

ninja900 wrote: »

Remind me how many seasons Ferguson got before he won anything?

That means nothing. If every team used that logic to excuse a manager who wasn't up to the job you'd have a whole lot more declines like the Liverpool one.

BloodBath

ninja900 wrote: »

Remind me how many seasons Ferguson got before he won anything?

Fergie didn't inherit a league winning team. United are fairly strong and only needed a couple of key players to continue their run. Moyes didn't sign the players we needed and is totally clueless in everything he does.

Fergie was also a winner before he joined United. The things he did at Aberdeen were nothing short of astounding. Moyes has done nothing to prove he is a winner. He will be gone by January.

adox

BloodBath wrote: »

He will be gone by January.

No matter how many times you say it, its not going to happen.

Nolars

adox wrote: »

No matter how many times you say it, its not going to happen.

Depends if we are 8th in the league at xmas that wud be unacceptable to be fair.

BloodBath

adox wrote: »

No matter how many times you say it, its not going to happen.

Why? Do you honestly think massive fan and media pressure won't force him out if we continue being ****e by January. What if we're outside of the top 4 by quite a few points? I don't get this unwavering loyalty to Moyes. He has done nothing to earn it.

He plays a ****e brand of football, his team selections and tactics are awful, the transfer window was a joke, his comments to the media have been beyond stupid. He's out of his depth.

Hotblack Desiato

BloodBath wrote: »

Fergie didn't inherit a league winning team. United are fairly strong and only needed a couple of key players to continue their run. Moyes didn't sign the players we needed and is totally clueless in everything he does.

The squad is a lot weaker than you think it is. United's rivals self-destructed last year, we were lucky to sign RVP and very lucky that he (mostly) stayed fit.

Moyes identified transfer targets, the club screwed it up.

Do you really think Anderson, Young, Valencia, Giggs (sad to say - club should have retired him) are up to United standard? I have my doubts about Smalling, Cleverley, Buttner, Evans too. These are all players Ferguson signed and/or kept on past their prime. Ferdinand is past it too.

Some of the European performances in the last couple of years were truly cringeworthy, especially against 'lesser' teams where we played a lot of squad players. There needs to be a clear out.

Fergie was also a winner before he joined United. The things he did at Aberdeen were nothing short of astounding.

Yes but he was also lucky to be in the right place at the right time. He could have chosen a different but similar club and ended up with nothing. And money has a much bigger impact these days, if you have an Everton size budget then league titles are out of the question.

Moyes has done nothing to prove he is a winner. He will be gone by January.

Ludicrous nonsense. This isn't City or Chelsea.

CSF

ninja900 wrote: »

The squad is a lot weaker than you think it is. United's rivals self-destructed last year, we were lucky to sign RVP and very lucky that he (mostly) stayed fit.

Rubbish, United won the league with only 6 points less than the record points tally. Had very little to do with what their rivals do. You won't often record 89 points and not win the league, and I would be very surprised if any of those rivals who 'self-destructed last year' achieve that tally this season.

Hulk Hands

I can't see how rivals self destructing has anything to do with United gaining a near record points tally. It wasn't as if City or Chelsea, Arsenal or Spurs imploded in our games against them either, seeing as each of them took points off United and beat United bar Arsenal. So either every single team in the league underperformed, or United were actually good enough to amass a huge points total