Donegal GAA Discussion Thread

Redsoxfan

Well it was a disappointing end to the year, but it wasn’t really surprising.
The narrative is that Aidan O’Shea destroyed us and Mayo shackled Michael Murphy, but that’s hardly the story of the game. It was a tremendous goal by O’Shea of course, but up to that, we had done ok. And Michael scored three points from play – when did we last see that?

It seems kind of pointless to pick out key moments, as I just felt Mayo were better all over and never really looked in trouble. But Colm Anthony’s missed goal chance and the subsequent AOS hammer blow was a turning point. We had been teetering, but suddenly were only a point down heading into halftime. I felt that the introduction of the likes of McElhinney, Thompson and Leo would give us a boost and we were in with a shout. But the goal opened up a four point lead and suddenly everything looked black.
Where to start with the first goal. Well, if you allow Mayo time to pick out AOS, chances, are, he will be able to win the odd ball into him. We were too passive at the final Mayo kick out – I saw Christy dropping back when he was close enough to press his man and at least slow the advance. And then SOS had plenty of time to pick out his brother. Mark McHugh was a disaster as a sweeper. He’s fine to pick up loose ball, but has no physical presence. He probably should have been positioned in front of AOS just to try and screen/disrupt. Look how Mayo dealt with the threat of Michael Murphy – they used a big midfielder with no real experience of sweeping – we had no new ideas for AOS.

If the first goal was a hammer blow, the second was the knockout punch. Whether Keegan meant it or not is pretty irrelevant – the one thing I would focus on here was that Odhran MacNiallais was meant to be picking him up and was clearly lame. This lack of decisive action by the guys on the line in leaving him on contrasts with Mayo’s decision to pull Tom Cunniffe when he was injured early on. Mayo made the most of our weakness, but how much did we hit Paddy McBrearty when he was being marked by Cunniffe?

Lee Keegan (1-2), Jason Doherty (0-3) and Kevin McLaughlin (0-2) contributed 1-7 of the total for Mayo – while Michael Murphy had to do it nearly all himself for us, with Christy Toye the only other starting player to score. What was Paddy McBrearty’s role? At one stage in the second half when we were seven or eight points down he was back inside the Donegal 45. Another time around the same stage, when we won the ball there was at least 60 metres between our defence and closest attacker. Keith Higgins managed Colm Anthony well which is fair enough (he also scored a point though).

We were out thought and out fought. To score only five points in the second half says it all. We are clearly not the team we were as Mayo sat on their lead and it could have been much worse for us. And the game beforehand tells us a little more about the Ulster Final – how did we only manage 10 points against Monaghan when Tyrone (a team with no forwards…) can manage 18? Of course if even half our wides went over, we might have won handy, but fact is, 10/11 points in games like the Ulster Final and All Ireland Quarter Final isn’t going to get it done.

I dunno where we go from here. People bemoan the hard road through the Ulster Championship, and yet players and supporters seem to relish it. The only tweak I would like to see made is that teams that play in the preliminary round are then seeded for the next few years. But maybe we should be planning on peaking for All Ireland Quarter Finals rather than first round games in Ulster? Why do we look so tired – this Mayo team are on the road for the last five years too, with minimal changes. They have the motivation of an All-Ireland to drive them on I suppose and their age profile is probably younger I guess, but we looked so much older and weary on Saturday night. If we go about things the same way next year (playing the full deck of players during the League and then going hell for leather in the Ulster Championship), how can we expect results to be any different?
Of course the players owe us nothing, but I don’t think they are happy going out like this.

If the head and the legs are willing then I hope they all come back, but it’s hard to see anything but decline for a number of players. We absolutely need to start to introduce and develop alternatives and we have to take a look at our approach to games. What worked in 2012 will not work next year unless we can find guys who can sprint up and down the field for 70 minutes.

Stoner

You could also argue that based on the games in 2013 and 2015 that Mayo are very good at beating Donegal, and would do that anyway.

I wouldn't be too downbeat, it was your managers first year running the show even though he tried to pass it off as a smooth transition, it was really Jim's team and format. There really was very little difference to show for a new manager in charge.
Rory will need to find his own way before he becomes a GAA Moyes. Jim writting in the papers etc and delivering analysis etc was understandable but it gave the impression that he never really let go.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Redsoxfan wrote: »

I dunno where we go from here. People bemoan the hard road through the Ulster Championship, and yet players and supporters seem to relish it. The only tweak I would like to see made is that teams that play in the preliminary round are then seeded for the next few years. But maybe we should be planning on peaking for All Ireland Quarter Finals rather than first round games in Ulster? Why do we look so tired – this Mayo team are on the road for the last five years too, with minimal changes. They have the motivation of an All-Ireland to drive them on I suppose and their age profile is probably younger I guess, but we looked so much older and weary on Saturday night. If we go about things the same way next year (playing the full deck of players during the League and then going hell for leather in the Ulster Championship), how can we expect results to be any different?
Of course the players owe us nothing, but I don’t think they are happy going out like this.

If the head and the legs are willing then I hope they all come back, but it’s hard to see anything but decline for a number of players. We absolutely need to start to introduce and develop alternatives and we have to take a look at our approach to games. What worked in 2012 will not work next year unless we can find guys who can sprint up and down the field for 70 minutes.

An injection of fresh blood and a good stint at rebuilding will go a long way towards Donegal being back challenging for honours again. It would have been a big ask for Donegal to put in a match-winning performance against Mayo after having run through the gauntlet in Ulster and the qualifiers. Mayo were hungrier, fresher and better conditioned. As you allude to above the defensive plan that Jimmy put in place required a serious amount of fitness and intensity, very difficult to sustain that kind of game over an entire championship unless you have a super-fit team, which Donegal never really looked like this year.

Of course the argument about how fair it is that Mayo can get to a QF after two games while Ulster teams can expect three or four against tougher opposition is relevant but it's one where a perfect solution will not be found, not while the provincial championships are so sacrosanct.

rebel girl 15

I've carded one person already, since I had issued on thread warnings about the silliness continuing

Redsoxfan

Stoner wrote: »

You could also argue that based on the games in 2013 and 2015 that Mayo are very good at beating Donegal, and would do that anyway.

You could of course, and for me to try and argue otherwise would be kind of pointless, but we didn't even play that well in the 2012 Final. When ticking over nicely, I would back us against anyone. That hasn't been the case for a while now.

Stoner wrote: »

I wouldn't be too downbeat, it was your managers first year running the show even though he tried to pass it off as a smooth transition, it was really Jim's team and format. There really was very little difference to show for a new manager in charges.
Rory will need to find his own way before he becomes a GAA Moyes. Jim writting in the papers etc and delivering analysis etc was understandable but it gave the impression that he never really let go.

Unfortunately, there is no-one, and I mean no-one, in the league of Durcan, Neil McGee, Karl Lacey, Frank McGlynn or Big Neil coming through anytime soon. The best players from the Under 21 teams of recent years are already on the Senior panel. Maybe some of the 2014 minor team will be able to contribute in the coming years, but the fact is that the players I have named will probably go down as our greatest ever in their respective positions.

If we are to go back to what made us successful in 2012, then an overhaul of players is needed. If we are to keep with the same starters as 2015, then a fairly significant change in how we play is needed.

Hopefully I'm way off the mark, and we will see half a dozen new players emerge from the frozen fields of the McKenna Cup and a winter off will rejuvenate the tired legs and minds of our veterans and then we will get an Ulster draw involving Cavan/Antrim/Armagh/Down. We might be fit to challenge sooner than I think.

2moreMinutes

If posts are going to be deleted, it would be nice to told why. That's two of mine that have been deleted in the last day, neither of which were any more inflammatory than 95% of the posts in this forum.
No need to respond with a big bold important "take it to PM" as if you couldn't be bothered to do that, I certainly couldn't be either.

Redsoxfan

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Of course the argument about how fair it is that Mayo can get to a QF after two games while Ulster teams can expect three or four against tougher opposition is relevant but it's one where a perfect solution will not be found, not while the provincial championships are so sacrosanct.

I would argue that we should be focused on an All Ireland Quarter Final from the word go. Take whatever Ulster gives us at this stage.

jjdonegal

Redsoxfan wrote: »

You could of course, and for me to try and argue otherwise would be kind of pointless, but we didn't even play that well in the 2012 Final. When ticking over nicely, I would back us against anyone. That hasn't been the case for a while now.




Unfortunately, there is no-one, and I mean no-one, in the league of Durcan, Neil McGee, Karl Lacey, Frank McGlynn or Big Neil coming through anytime soon. The best players from the Under 21 teams of recent years are already on the Senior panel. Maybe some of the 2014 minor team will be able to contribute in the coming years, but the fact is that the players I have named will probably go down as our greatest ever in their respective positions.

If we are to go back to what made us successful in 2012, then an overhaul of players is needed. If we are to keep with the same starters as 2015, then a fairly significant change in how we play is needed.

Hopefully I'm way off the mark, and we will see half a dozen new players emerge from the frozen fields of the McKenna Cup and a winter off will rejuvenate the tired legs and minds of our veterans and then we will get an Ulster draw involving Cavan/Antrim/Armagh/Down. We might be fit to challenge sooner than I think.

Well said. I note observation about half a dozen emerging in the league but I would narrow it and say we need 3. They must get all the bloody time going in the league.
My ideal scenario:
1. No retirements. Guys are rested throughout the league in a manner that Kerry have done with key players in recent years. Although I expect retirements look at guys like O Mahoney and O Se. Are they both 35? I really think we could nurse another year out of those legs with reduced roles and have a serious push in Ulster.
2. 3 new players brought in. Absolute minimum. Give them league time, every bloody minute. I know Div 1 football is vital if you have AIrl aspirations but let's be serious; that's not an issue we will have in the next while. Worst case scenario is relegation but building from the base of Div 2 proved beneficial in 2011 and 2014.

I expect retirements but for them to hold of until maybe post Ulster draw. Another preliminary round tie for example away to Monaghan and the route this would entail would be a disaster and id expect 2/3 to go.
A "nice" draw similar to Monaghan this yesr might motivate a few to give it a final hurrah.

A serious, serious league next year. Need to unearth something and start this overhaul. I for one will take the relegation hit if needs be for the greater good as I think we must persist and find a minimum of 3 guys we can trust to do a job. A lot easier said than done.

2moreMinutes

It's very contradictory as I'd always defend our system of playing when we are winning but it's obviously a major source of annoyance and frustration when it's not working and we're losing.

It would be great if our first line of defence was further up the pitch instead of a full scale retreat to inside our 45 before we engage.
When we don't have the legs/willpower to counter attack, we become toothless and to be honest, very pitiful. Winning a hard fought turnover in our own half, moving forward to the opponents 45 before we then have to turn back because we've no teammates ahead of us has to be even more soul destroying for the players than it is for the fans.

Redsoxfan

jjdonegal wrote: »

Well said. I note observation about half a dozen emerging in the league but I would narrow it and say we need 3. They must get all the bloody time going in the league.

If we got even 3 I would be delighted!

But hopefully we get more commitment from Leo and Dec Walsh next year. And Thompson finds a job back home. If Eoin McHugh can stay fit, he might be an option. Jigger was hardly a factor all year, he might still have something to contribute. But damn, we need bigger players to emerge.

In fairness to him, I thought Hugh McFadden tried hard and got stuck in on Saturday. Still a lot of development needed but he's young.

2moreMinutes

It was interesting hearing Rory's comments after the game that a lot of the players had a long tough few years with a lot of miles on the clock. Almost sounded like someone resigned to losing a few of the older lads.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Redsoxfan wrote: »

I would argue that we should be focused on an All Ireland Quarter Final from the word go. Take whatever Ulster gives us at this stage.

It's a risky strategy though. Teams who are seriously challenging for Sam will aim to win the provincials as it gives you more certainty about who you will be up against and more time for recovery between the provincial final and the QF. The qualifiers can be a minefield as Cork discovered this year. This is where the unfairness exists between Ulster (and Leinster also if standard aside from the Dubs wasn't so poor) and the other provinces. It's easier for Mayo to aim to peak in August / September as they know they won't be facing Div 1 type opposition in Connacht whereas Donegal can usually expect it in the first round and must sustain it until the final. No team at the moment aside from Tyrone seem to have a grip on the qualifiers.

Sephiral

I don't think anyone was really surprised by Saturday's result. There were obvious flaws in our team all year that needed addressing. We are still completely dependent on Neil around the midfield, even though MacNiallis is starting to step up. We lack physical size in general around the middle of the park. Our half back line, which was one of the best in the country looks to have started to slow down. The two McHughs were blown away in contact far too often and I'm not sure that their footballing ability justifies having both in the team. We need to start excavating a few new players and the dead weight needs to be cut from the squad.

There is still the core of a good team there in Murphy, Mc Breaty, Mac Niallis, the McHughs, Mc Glynn Neil Mc Gee. These players have all shown up in big games already so they should be at the centre of rebuilding the squad. Gallagher, McFadden, Toye, Eamon McGee, Lacey and a few others are starting to get on in years and I'd be surprised to see them all back next year. We have to start integrating the best players from our underage teams and finding players who might have slipped through the gaps at that stage. There seems to be a touch of rounding out the squad with good lads with solid athleticism and mentality instead of taking the best footballers and giving them a go. This attitude has to stop if we want to bridge the gap to the top three again.

doc_17

We should be taking the best minor players from the previous year, at least 3 of them, and start them in every McKenna Cup game. Playing certain players this year just because they are from a selector's club isn't really an option. It's a waste. We should be getting these lads into the setup early and develop them from age 18-21. I know they train quite hard for the 21s but when that's done they are very much left to their own devices. An U19 development squad that meets a few times a year wouldn't be any harm. Players could get programmes, fitness and dietary advice etc.

Redsoxfan

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

It's a risky strategy though. Teams who are seriously challenging for Sam will aim to win the provincials as it gives you more certainty about who you will be up against and more time for recovery between the provincial final and the QF. The qualifiers can be a minefield as Cork discovered this year. This is where the unfairness exists between Ulster (and Leinster also if standard aside from the Dubs wasn't so poor) and the other provinces. It's easier for Mayo to aim to peak in August / September as they know they won't be facing Div 1 type opposition in Connacht whereas Donegal can usually expect it in the first round and must sustain it until the final. No team at the moment aside from Tyrone seem to have a grip on the qualifiers.

To be fair, with the new A and B system, it isn't really that hard to predict who you will end up playing. And there aren't that many good teams out there. I think Cork put their hopes into beating Kerry and when that failed they were done. If you are prepared to face into the qualifiers, a team like Donegal shouldn't fear anyone we are likely to meet (look at Tyrone, Limerick, Meath, Tipperary, Sligo - yes please!) as you can nearly be sure that the other provincial winners next year will be Dublin, Kerry and Mayo (unless Mayo have a 'beer year')

Look, I would like nothing better for us to be winning Ulster and then going on to compete for the All Ireland. But it's hard to do that every year. I think you need to manage accordingly.

Ceist_Beag

My immediate hope is that none of the players make any quick decisions. Get back to the clubs and knuckle down for the championship. Hold off making any decisions until at least after the Ulster draw as jj says.
My fear is that we could lose half a dozen from the first 20. It might be hard for some lads to stay at home for work reasons whilst others may not fancy the hard slog over winter so it will be up to Rory how he manages all of this - if he can find a way to let some of the older lads have the winter off and tailor the plan for next year accordingly then that might be one option.
I saw more from the minors to be optimistic about but this is a few years down the line (and history shows a good minor rarely progresses to a similar stature at senior level) so for the next few years we may not have too much coming through.
But as you say RSF, we're not just talking about getting lads into the panel here. We're talking about replacing lads who will be regarded as the best ever in their position for Donegal so it's hard not to feel that it's going to be a tough few years to transition.
The positives are that we will continue to have one of the best players in the country as our captain and if anyone can inspire young lads coming into the panel it's him. If we can unearth a few more like Odhran then we have a chance of staying competitive - bear in mind that Odhran didn't really make the breakthrough until he was 21. Get a few more like young Ciaran McGinley to have a decent run in the league and maybe things will look a bit brighter come next May.

Redsoxfan

I would think part of the problem is that there are good players who just don't want to commit to what is being asked of them on the basis that they might get a chance. Not saying that there are loads of them, but I'm fairly sure there will be a few out there who meet the talent criteria but not the other attributes you need to play inter-county football these days.

Ceist_Beag

Redsoxfan wrote: »

I would think part of the problem is that there are good players who just don't want to commit to what is being asked of them on the basis that they might get a chance. Not saying that there are loads of them, but I'm fairly sure there will be a few out there who meet the talent criteria but not the other attributes you need to play inter-county football these days.

Possibly - but for some it might be a case of work not really facilitating it either. I know my employer would not really provide the flexibility needed ... not that I was ever blessed enough to be in a position to test this mind! Unfortunately for some lads they're probably not long enough in a good job to be able to get buy in from their employer to the demands of inter county football.

jjdonegal

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Possibly - but for some it might be a case of work not really facilitating it either. I know my employer would not really provide the flexibility needed ... not that I was ever blessed enough to be in a position to test this mind! Unfortunately for some lads they're probably not long enough in a good job to be able to get buy in from their employer to the demands of inter county football.

Logistically the commitment needed in places like Donegal and other western counties is a nightmare for many.
Take training in Convoy or Ballybofey. 60 mins at a minimum for many players to get there and the inevitable 60mins to go home.
Then we have the few around the country too.
The commitment required is getting ridiculous now so I wouldn't blame many for not having the desire to put in the effort.

IH784man

I don't think he will be the last either

intellectual dosser

How many players were given championship debuts this year? Hugh McFadden?

Have we been slowly limping towards this mass exodus and the huge gap it would leave?

Redsoxfan

IH784man wrote: »

I don't think he will be the last either

Where did you see this.....

IH784man

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2015/08/11/paul-durcans-donegal-future-in-doubt-as-he-moves-abroad/

Got the photo of Instagram though.

Redsoxfan

IH784man wrote: »

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2015/08/11/paul-durcans-donegal-future-in-doubt-as-he-moves-abroad/

Got the photo of Instagram though.

I thought as much.

Nothing from any source I trust.

2moreMinutes

Redsoxfan wrote: »

I thought as much.

Nothing from any source I trust.

I was told yesterday that he was going out there on a two year contract.

Since its Donegal Daily, it's as likely that they heard him say he was going to the shops and they out 2+2 together!

Redsoxfan

He's probably going for a two week holiday.

doc_17

He'd hardly have transferred to Dublin only to leave after a few months? Surely he'd have stayed with Four Masters? Maybe it's true but I wouldn't trust Donegal Daily

jjdonegal

doc_17 wrote: »

He'd hardly have transferred to Dublin only to leave after a few months? Surely he'd have stayed with Four Masters? Maybe it's true but I wouldn't trust Donegal Daily

Same as someone above heard it on Sunday night actually. Didn't pay much attention to it. Girlfriend a teacher afaik so good likelihood she going as the money is ridiculous by all accounts.

2moreMinutes

Surely there's Friday night & Monday morning flights he could avail of to commute for games.

Redsoxfan

Ok, Belfast Telegraph now carrying it, as told to Declan Bogue by Rory Gallagher.

Ruled out for National League but not 2016 Championship.