Donegal GAA Discussion Thread

squareball1988

My only concern is Dublin. Other than that we should be OK.

bob skunkhouse

Ummm..I dunno really...I don't see why not (go tete a tete) with them. If I may comment on one thing, it's Paddy Mc's performance in his last two games. Watching him v Tyrone in Clones he was terrrible, not through any fault of his own, but more the team and management tactics - counter to everything he's good at. If the young fella had a tin can he'd have kicked it over and back the 13 for about 60 mins of that game. Now, contrast that to last week where he played like a superstar. Showed for more balls, made more incisive runs, shot with confidence and pretty much was cock-a-hoop in Croke Park. The buck was the talk of the country and is buzzing with confidence. Surely management should feed into this confidence and let it seep through the panel, play with it rather than against it. Can you imagine his mind frame if Rory sticks to the same game plan as the Ulster final. Croker will be a lonely place if he is stuck in front of a packed hill left scratching his hole, or kicking that same can again - know what I mean like?

I'd say they went into the Cork game with a very laissez faire attitude - could take it or leave it approach towards the game - with the knowledge that the winners would be playing Dublin next. You could see this the way they played in the first half. Enough room in the defence to drive a small Sherman through it, half baked tackles, no covering, and no focus on the game at hand.

At half time with them only a point down I'd say Gallagher (or someone) told them to give it a lash, tighten up at the back and hold the fort, refocus on the game and grab it by the throat. This mightn't be the best Cork team in the history of Cork teams, but they only lost to Tipp (current AI semi-finalists) by 2 points and also the same Cork team that - while relegated - had the same number of points as us in the league. Like - when was the last time we hit 21 scores in a game?


Final point, while I appreciate it's a results driven game at the moment, I see half a dozen retirements from the team this year - possibly even a management change. I'd far rather see the team go out knowing they gave it a lash, rather than the crap they played against Dublin back in the league. I suspect the likes of Rory, Christy, Karl, Leo etc would like so as well.

I'm sure Gallagher is sick to the back teeth listening to all the kudos dished out to JMcG for downing the Dubs back in '14. What better stick is there to beat his old nemesis with than a whipping of the jacks? A bit of belief, a bit of savvy football, 100% commitment, a few gods smiling on us and the Dubs are there for the taking!

(On the flip side, I hope to 'puck' it's not like Mayo a few years back - Oh God I hope not!!!)

Jayop

If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, you could have Ronaldo and Messi at inside forward and if you don't give the ball into them they'll look rubbish. I couldn't understand why you didn't pump the odd ball in in Clones. Madness given what you have up there.

timmyntc

Jayop wrote: »

If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, you could have Ronaldo and Messi at inside forward and if you don't give the ball into them they'll look rubbish. I couldn't understand why you didn't pump the odd ball in in Clones. Madness given what you have up there.

There was no turning over the ball in Clones, every possession for Tyrone was a guaranteed score. To lump the ball in to the square is to give away another point. The only way it would work is if it was on the break and you lumped it up to the 65 or so, youd never get enough space within the 45 to catch a ball.

corny

bob skunkhouse wrote: »

Ummm..I dunno really...I don't see why not (go tete a tete) with them. If I may comment on one thing, it's Paddy Mc's performance in his last two games. Watching him v Tyrone in Clones he was terrrible, not through any fault of his own, but more the team and management tactics - counter to everything he's good at. If the young fella had a tin can he'd have kicked it over and back the 13 for about 60 mins of that game. Now, contrast that to last week where he played like a superstar. Showed for more balls, made more incisive runs, shot with confidence and pretty much was cock-a-hoop in Croke Park. The buck was the talk of the country and is buzzing with confidence. Surely management should feed into this confidence and let it seep through the panel, play with it rather than against it. Can you imagine his mind frame if Rory sticks to the same game plan as the Ulster final. Croker will be a lonely place if he is stuck in front of a packed hill left scratching his hole, or kicking that same can again - know what I mean like?

I'd say they went into the Cork game with a very laissez faire attitude - could take it or leave it approach towards the game - with the knowledge that the winners would be playing Dublin next. You could see this the way they played in the first half. Enough room in the defence to drive a small Sherman through it, half baked tackles, no covering, and no focus on the game at hand.

At half time with them only a point down I'd say Gallagher (or someone) told them to give it a lash, tighten up at the back and hold the fort, refocus on the game and grab it by the throat. This mightn't be the best Cork team in the history of Cork teams, but they only lost to Tipp (current AI semi-finalists) by 2 points and also the same Cork team that - while relegated - had the same number of points as us in the league. Like - when was the last time we hit 21 scores in a game?


Final point, while I appreciate it's a results driven game at the moment, I see half a dozen retirements from the team this year - possibly even a management change. I'd far rather see the team go out knowing they gave it a lash, rather than the crap they played against Dublin back in the league. I suspect the likes of Rory, Christy, Karl, Leo etc would like so as well.

I'm sure Gallagher is sick to the back teeth listening to all the kudos dished out to JMcG for downing the Dubs back in '14. What better stick is there to beat his old nemesis with than a whipping of the jacks? A bit of belief, a bit of savvy football, 100% commitment, a few gods smiling on us and the Dubs are there for the taking!

(On the flip side, I hope to 'puck' it's not like Mayo a few years back - Oh God I hope not!!!)

I think you're off your head with your analysis but i also think that type of relentless positivity is what Donegal are really lacking!

People talk about a tactical masterclass against the Dubs in 2014 (again Brolly is really behind that) but the reality is Dublin played Donegal off the pitch when it is easy for them. As soon as fatigue built and Donegal gathered themselves Dublin checked out. Stopped tracking runners, stopped working off the ball etc. I think that happened to them in 2012 too and its a huge question (missed by the media i see) in 2016. Make it difficult, keep the faith and you never know.

I say you never know because IF Dublin have their house in order there's nothing Donegal can do about the result.;)

corny

corny wrote: »

I think you're off your head with your analysis but i also think that type of relentless positivity is what Donegal are really lacking!

People talk about a tactical masterclass against the Dubs in 2014 (again Brolly is really behind that) but the reality is Dublin played Donegal off the pitch when it is easy for them. As soon as fatigue built and Donegal gathered themselves Dublin checked out. Stopped tracking runners, stopped working off the ball etc. I think that happened to them in 2012 too and its a huge question (missed by the media i see) in 2016. Make it difficult, keep the faith and you never know.

I say you never know because IF Dublin have their house in order there's nothing Donegal can do about the result.;)

If there is one thing I've learned about this Donegal team, it's that they can be very unpredictable.
Some of our best games have happened when we've been written off!

Time will tell, Tír Chonaill Abú!

BonnieSituation

corny wrote: »

I think you're off your head with your analysis but i also think that type of relentless positivity is what Donegal are really lacking!

People talk about a tactical masterclass against the Dubs in 2014 (again Brolly is really behind that) but the reality is Dublin played Donegal off the pitch when it is easy for them. As soon as fatigue built and Donegal gathered themselves Dublin checked out. Stopped tracking runners, stopped working off the ball etc. I think that happened to them in 2012 too and its a huge question (missed by the media i see) in 2016. Make it difficult, keep the faith and you never know.

I say you never know because IF Dublin have their house in order there's nothing Donegal can do about the result.;)

For the first 20min DL were goosed then Dermo missed and Jimmy changed it up. It was a astute tactical awareness.

Jayop

timmyntc wrote: »

There was no turning over the ball in Clones, every possession for Tyrone was a guaranteed score. To lump the ball in to the square is to give away another point. The only way it would work is if it was on the break and you lumped it up to the 65 or so, youd never get enough space within the 45 to catch a ball.

I don't think so. Both men are able to catch ball inside and from my position there was space in the first half.

dog_pig

corny wrote: »

I think you're off your head with your analysis but i also think that type of relentless positivity is what Donegal are really lacking!

People talk about a tactical masterclass against the Dubs in 2014 (again Brolly is really behind that) but the reality is Dublin played Donegal off the pitch when it is easy for them. As soon as fatigue built and Donegal gathered themselves Dublin checked out. Stopped tracking runners, stopped working off the ball etc. I think that happened to them in 2012 too and its a huge question (missed by the media i see) in 2016. Make it difficult, keep the faith and you never know.

I say you never know because IF Dublin have their house in order there's nothing Donegal can do about the result.;)

Dublin were dominating early on in 2014 primarily through unsustainable long range scoring. When Donegal fought their way back into the game Dublin found those scores difficult when it wasn't as "easy for them".

Fatigue? Come on. Donegal outscored Dublin 1-4 to 2 points from the 23rd minute on in the first half. Surely they weren't fatigued that early on in the match?

What I'm saying has no bearing on Saturday's match obviously.

corny

dog_pig wrote: »

Dublin were dominating early on in 2014 primarily through unsustainable long range scoring. When Donegal fought their way back into the game Dublin found those scores difficult when it wasn't as "easy for them".

Fatigue? Come on. Donegal outscored Dublin 1-4 to 2 points from the 23rd minute on in the first half. Surely they weren't fatigued that early on in the match?

What I'm saying has no bearing on Saturday's match obviously.

With respect that matches the Joe Brolly narrative but its not right. O' Gara through on goal makes a mess of a simple hand pass. Connolly through on goal hits it at the keeper. They'd 2 long range points from what i remember the rest were very gettable. Point is they created a boat load of good chances when Donegal didn't offer anything in return.

I didn't mean to suggest Dublin were fatigued in the 23rd minute either. Apologies it might read like that. I meant its easy to be full of running when the game is going your way and your 8-3 up. When its not and you have to work hard to match your opponent Dublin wilted. It was clear as day. Connolly for example just stopped running backwards. Thats credit to Donegal for forcing that mind you. I'm not trying to diminish the achievement. Just the narrative around the tactical side has taken on a life of its own while the fact that Donegal completely outworked Dublin (wanted it more) was forgotten.

Getting back to Saturday all the talk is what Donegal have to do to get on terms while its assumed Dublin are bomb proof. May not be the case if history is anything to go by is my point.

Stoner

dog_pig wrote:

Dublin were dominating early on in 2014 primarily through unsustainable long range scoring. When Donegal fought their way back into the game Dublin found those scores difficult when it wasn't as "easy for them".

I agree that Donegal changed things up brilliantly during the game.
Dublin did get a few decent goal chances before Donegal made tactical changes.

I agree with most of what you said except the statement that you can't keep long range shooting up for a whole game.
Who came up with that fact. I never heard it before 2014. Good footballers can shoot form distance at any time.
I understand not being able to track back for a full game but one is a skill the other is conditioning.

North of 32

Stoner wrote: »

dog_pig wrote:

Dublin were dominating early on in 2014 primarily through unsustainable long range scoring. When Donegal fought their way back into the game Dublin found those scores difficult when it wasn't as "easy for them".

I agree with most of what you said except the statement that you can't keep long range shooting up for a whole game.
Who came up with that fact. I never heard it before 2014. Good footballers can shoot form distance at any time.
I understand not being able to track back for a full game but one is a skill the other is conditioning.

Conversion percentages drop a lot the further out from the 21 a player gets. It's statistically demonstrable that shooting from 45m is not an ideal %. Sure why do you think defences set up at the 45m line? Everyone is happy to allow shots from there.

Here's an example to prove it: http://gaelicstats.com/comparing-football-forwards/

dog_pig

corny wrote: »

With respect that matches the Joe Brolly narrative but its not right. O' Gara through on goal makes a mess of a simple hand pass. Connolly through on goal hits it at the keeper. They'd 2 long range points from what i remember the rest were very gettable. Point is they created a boat load of good chances when Donegal didn't offer anything in return.

I didn't mean to suggest Dublin were fatigued in the 23rd minute either. Apologies it might read like that. I meant its easy to be full of running when the game is going your way and your 8-3 up. When its not and you have to work hard to match your opponent Dublin wilted. It was clear as day. Connolly for example just stopped running backwards. Thats credit to Donegal for forcing that mind you. I'm not trying to diminish the achievement. Just the narrative around the tactical side has taken on a life of its own while the fact that Donegal completely outworked Dublin (wanted it more) was forgotten.

Getting back to Saturday all the talk is what Donegal have to do to get on terms while its assumed Dublin are bomb proof. May not be the case if history is anything to go by is my point.

Watch the match back and look at the points by Dublin in the 10 minute period when Donegal went scoreless. Whatever narrative is irrelevant.

In relation to the goal chances - Dublin had a few early on which they didn't score and offered very little for the rest of the match.

Maybe I'm confused by what you meant by "the reality is Dublin played Donegal off the pitch when it is easy for them."?

jjdonegal

I vividly remember Martin McHugh after the Mayo 13 game - "every Donegal manager has experienced a humiliating defeat in Croke Park". Saturday will be Gallaghers. Nowhere near the 14 level and the loss of Big Neil is immense as Martin McE not at the races. No kivkout strategy but that will take time - it's not MA's fault as it took Durcan years to master it. I cannot see any case where Dublin do not beat the -5 handicap and in fact I'm struggling to see them not beating -10. Jesus I pray I'm wrong but I fear an absolute humiliation.

Stoner

North of 32 wrote:

Conversion percentages drop a lot the further out from the 21 a player gets. It's statistically demonstrable that shooting from 45m is not an ideal %. Sure why do you think defences set up at the 45m line? Everyone is happy to allow shots from there.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that if a player can put the ball over the bar then that's a skill . It shouldn't be easier to do it in the first 10 minutes of a game. Plenty of players score long range points throughout games.

If you have the forwards that can do it they will do it.

Ceist_Beag

jjdonegal wrote: »

I vividly remember Martin McHugh after the Mayo 13 game - "every Donegal manager has experienced a humiliating defeat in Croke Park". Saturday will be Gallaghers. Nowhere near the 14 level and the loss of Big Neil is immense as Martin McE not at the races. No kivkout strategy but that will take time - it's not MA's fault as it took Durcan years to master it. I cannot see any case where Dublin do not beat the -5 handicap and in fact I'm struggling to see them not beating -10. Jesus I pray I'm wrong but I fear an absolute humiliation.

That's the head talking jj. It's time to put the logic and reason to one side for a couple of days now and say a few decades or light a few candles and let us travel in hope!

North of 32

Stoner wrote:

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that if a player can put the ball over the bar then that's a skill . It shouldn't be easier to do it in the first 10 minutes of a game. Plenty of players score long range points throughout games.

Sure, a player can do it at any time (Ulster final: P Harte; S Cavanagh) but the stats show that among the best 20 forwards the conversion rate is only 25â„… in the long run. Everything was going over for Dublin at the beginning but you can't win a game taking shots where, on average, only 1/4 go over.

That's not saying a player couldn't do it at any time of the game (see examples above), it's just saying that relying on long range scores means that on average your conversion rate will drop well below 50â„….

That is what is meant by unsustainable scoring.

North of 32

Stoner wrote:

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that if a player can put the ball over the bar then that's a skill . It shouldn't be easier to do it in the first 10 minutes of a game. Plenty of players score long range points throughout games.

Sure, a player can do it at any time (Ulster final: P Harte; S Cavanagh) but the stats show that among the best 20 forwards the conversion rate is only 25â„… in the long run. Everything was going over for Dublin at the beginning but you can't win a game taking shots where, on average, only 1/4 go over.

That's not saying a player couldn't do it at any time of the game (see examples above), it's just saying that relying on long range scores means that on average your conversion rate will drop well below 50â„….

That is what is meant by unsustainable scoring.

Stoner

North of 32 wrote:

That's not saying a player couldn't do it at any time of the game (see examples above), it's just saying that relying on long range scores means that on average your conversion rate will drop well below 50â„….

But that's the simple point. Lads saying you can't keep that up for the whole game .

TBH I think we had a misunderstanding, my point related to statements about players not being able to kick points from distance for the whole game . I'm saying that's bs to a degree I think we agree. The stats offered related to accuracy versus distance from the posts I was taking about the time in the game that they are scores. What about the championship quarter

All that said if they changed the statement to one that you can't win games by long distance points alone you need frees, fisted and short points etc that would have been a different story.

Anyway Im 95 percent convinced that the 2011 Donegal team could have been beaten by long-distance points plus a few frees . When the teams played in 2011 what was the score 6-8 .
A long distance shot was worth it, it was nearly like a goal. Now Donegal are complaining about an average score of 12 being low. But thats twice the 2011 score.
Remember in that game was a point ever more valuable, I'm not talking about a winning point but any point one at 35 or 51 minutes etc

Look at the scores in the 2011 final game Nolan, Donaghy Cluxton . The final that year was won by points kicked in injury time from distance. And look who kicked them? All All-stars.

Thing is how would Dublin 2011 have done against Donegal in 2014, possibly they would have won, maybe not but that 2014 Dublin team knew how to beat Donegal in championship football. But Donegal changed things up noticeably Kerry and Dublin noticed it and took it on board but it was too late fur Dublin. Regardless if Donegal played and beaten kerry before Dublin in 2014 I still think Donegal would have beaten Dublin such was the belief in the system .
So in 2014 Donegal changed it up mid game and Dublin stayed true to something that worked for 22 months it was not hype or overconfidence they just thought that system worked out evey time, the line didn't react fast enough.

So are Dublin now sticking to a rigid all out predictable system or has Gavin massively changed up his decision making .
Remember how long he left Brennan on Gooch in 2013. But Gooch died out in the second half, but really Cian O'Sullivan, now regarded as the best or second best sweeper moved on to him, the match up worked, but the change took too long to make. The undying belief in the system prevailed until Dublin played Donegal 10 months later

In the final in 2015 D O'Sullivans threat the one that worked in the final in 2014 was shut down much faster

All in all these are two teams well able to play negative defensive football.

I think this will be a more open game. Donegal could drive at Dublin now missing most of their best defenders. It might just be the case of going for it.

So another spoof you cant beat Dublin man on man. Kerry and Mayo came close it just hasn't happened yet.
So it's very possible our men for your men are not as good as 2011 or 2014. Lads like Kevin Nolan were a big loss through illness to Dublin, big name players never mind the gaping void left by ROC and the loss of counterattack speed from McCaffery.

K-9

jjdonegal wrote: »

I vividly remember Martin McHugh after the Mayo 13 game - "every Donegal manager has experienced a humiliating defeat in Croke Park". Saturday will be Gallaghers. Nowhere near the 14 level and the loss of Big Neil is immense as Martin McE not at the races. No kivkout strategy but that will take time - it's not MA's fault as it took Durcan years to master it. I cannot see any case where Dublin do not beat the -5 handicap and in fact I'm struggling to see them not beating -10. Jesus I pray I'm wrong but I fear an absolute humiliation.

Yep, my fear is Dublin do actually get that goal or 2 they threatened to in 14 and I think we've a big psychological thing about conceding goals against teams like them, O'Shea last year to give an example.

ghostfacekilla

Is it always this late in the evening before the name their team?

Not that I'll expect any major surprises.

Redsoxfan

Well, young Nidgeweasel did a mighty fine preview.

I have absolutely no faith we can win on Saturday. None.

Last year, we beat Tyrone and came within a kick of winning Ulster. We beat Galway handy enough in Croke Park and had not significant injuries heading to face Mayo. But we were second best by a long way in the Quarter Final.

This year, some parallels. But we have No Papa, no Big Neil, no real possibility of Colm Anthony grinning at the Hill. No chance.

Additions, only Eoin McHugh really, and a fine addition he has been. Gillespie may turn out to be as big a legend as his Gweedore teammate, but he's not going to make the difference this year.

Devenney (!) has a decent piece on DSH where he talks about us looking leggy. And that's the main problem I think. Too many of those who we relied on in 2012 look gassed.

Anyone who has watched this team over the past two years will know that we don't have a strategy for dealing with the top teams. We look OK against inferior opposition but there are too many issues with tactics, fitness and general mojo when it comes to the crunch.

It's unlikely that Dublin will accommodate us tomorrow. I have no idea how we will approach the game but unless it's some sort of wonderful hybrid of defence and attack they will be ready for us.

I hope we give it a go but fear that we will be ultra defensive and they will wear us down.

I also hope I'm wrong but I am basing all of the above on everything I have seen as opposed to trying to talk myself out of us winning.

Whatever, I'll be there to see it. Looking forward to the curtain raiser.

Stoner

Redsoxfan wrote:

I have absolutely now faith we can win on Saturday. None.

Go away you said that in 2014. I believed you.

Redsoxfan

Stoner wrote:

Go away you said that in 2014. I believed you.

I don't think I had too much to say in 2014!

2moreMinutes

Dublin -5 at 10/11.........easiest money to be made this summer. Unfortunately

Redsoxfan

2moreMinutes wrote:

Dublin -5 at 10/11.........easiest money to be made this summer. Unfortunately

Wrong.

Was - 4 earlier in the week.

Jayop

While I fully expect Dublin to win when was the last time someone beat Donegal in the championship by more than 5 points?

Maybe not that long ago but answers on a postcard.

Padkir

Jayop wrote: »

While I fully expect Dublin to win when was the last time someone beat Donegal in the championship by more than 5 points?

Maybe not that long ago but answers on a postcard.

On first thoughts, Mayo last year; Mayo in 2013.

Redsoxfan

Jayop wrote:

While I fully expect Dublin to win when was the last time someone beat Donegal in the championship by more than 5 points?[

Maybe not that long ago but answers on a postcard.

2015...

Jayop

Mayo by 7 last year.

How come I don't remember that even a little?