Masters Thesis Oral Examination

cronos

Hi,

I've been asked to attend an oral examination of my dissertation with an external examiner? Reading the thesis guidelines this suggests I'm going to fail. Can anyone tell me if they have been through this process before? Do I have a chance of passing and what should I do. They have only given me 4 days notice before the meeting will take place so I won't have long to prepare.

Any help would be appreciated,
Cronos

Ravelleman

cronos wrote: »

Do I have a chance of passing and what should I do.

Most certainly. That's why you've been called in. I haven't been through the process but the oral exam exists for a reason - so that you can convince them you deserve a pass mark.

cronos

Ravelleman wrote: »

Most certainly. That's why you've been called in. I haven't been through the process but the oral exam exists for a reason - so that you can convince them you deserve a pass mark.

Yes. I'd like to know how I prepare such that I ensure I can make them understand that I should pass.

danthefan

cronos wrote: »

Yes. I'd like to know how I prepare such that I ensure I can make them understand that I should pass.

This is going to sound daft/obvious but just make sure you know the material in your thesis as well as possible. Be able to back up your claims, be able to explain your methods, etc.

I can't see how it means you're automatically going to fail, it would be a completely pointless exercise if that were the case.

cronos

danthefan wrote: »

This is going to sound daft/obvious but just make sure you know the material in your thesis as well as possible. Be able to back up your claims, be able to explain your methods, etc.

I can't see how it means you're automatically going to fail, it would be a completely pointless exercise if that were the case.

Does anyone know anyone who has actually been asked to do one? If so how did it turn out and what was asked?

Ravelleman

Perhaps you should ask your supervisor for advice. Is that not their role?

Tom Dunne

I would have thought the role of a supervisor is to ensure that there are no surprises - as in, if you were going to fail, you would know long before now.

Also, 4 days notice is quite bad form. You should have been informed a long time ago in order to give you sufficient time to prepare.

cronos

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I would have thought the role of a supervisor is to ensure that there are no surprises - as in, if you were going to fail, you would know long before now.

Also, 4 days notice is quite bad form. You should have been informed a long time ago in order to give you sufficient time to prepare.

She did say about a week and a half before I handed it in that she thought it was poor. I did a large redraft for about a week pulling massive hours after which she said it had improved. Not sure if she still thought it was poor at that stage.

I have not had any contact from the supervisor about the External Examiner meeting. I just really want to hear from anyone else who's gone through this.

BumblebeeGirl

I had one last year with an internal and external examiner for my MSc by research. I gave a 20min presentation on my findings and was asked questions that lasted about 1.5-2 hours. It was like a Viva Voce but at Masters level. I followed the sticky at the top of the thread and did fine!

Just make sure you know your thesis well and the background of the work involved.

Good luck!

cronos

I did the Oral Examination and unfortunately I failed. I'm working full time so I had very limited time to adequately prepare for the Oral Examination. I feel it to be very unfair that I failed. I even felt I gave a reasonable defense although given more time I could have done far better. Has anyone ever been through the appeals process for a Masters. Ever had any luck? My guess is I won't get anywhere with it but I have to try.

gutenberg

I don't know how much luck you'll have with an appeal to be honest. Usually, universities only entertain academic appeals where a student feels that there were some 'technical' or procedural errors in the handling of thesis marking, or exam management. From reading your story, it seems like the only potential avenue you might have would be to appeal against the 4 days' notice you were given to prepare for the oral examination. Check whether your university has any rules or guidelines for required notice - some don't, so don't bank on this. It sounds like your university did follow good practice though: your supervisor warned you about the quality of your work, and the university then invited you to a viva, as is common for borderline pass/fail cases; the only potential trouble spot is the quite short notice you were given about the viva (and I'm really sorry about that, I'd have been freaking out). If you were given a personal tutor or similar at the university, contact them; you could also contact the postgraduate Student Union, and your course leader.

The fact that you were given the chance to justify yourself in an oral examination sounds like a kind of appeal in itself to me. You weren't failed outright, the university gave you the chance to pull yourself through, but unfortunately you didn't. Universities really don't like having failed postgraduate degrees on their records, so they won't have taken this decision lightly. In any event, the decision of an external examiner is usually considered pretty much final: they are the arbitrator of the degree, making sure marking etc. is fair and consistent across a cohort, and that the work presented is up to the standard expected of Master's degrees. Unfortunately, it seems as if yours wasn't up to that standard.

cronos

gutenberg wrote: »

I don't know how much luck you'll have with an appeal to be honest. Usually, universities only entertain academic appeals where a student feels that there were some 'technical' or procedural errors in the handling of thesis marking, or exam management. From reading your story, it seems like the only potential avenue you might have would be to appeal against the 4 days' notice you were given to prepare for the oral examination. Check whether your university has any rules or guidelines for required notice - some don't, so don't bank on this. It sounds like your university did follow good practice though: your supervisor warned you about the quality of your work, and the university then invited you to a viva, as is common for borderline pass/fail cases; the only potential trouble spot is the quite short notice you were given about the viva (and I'm really sorry about that, I'd have been freaking out). If you were given a personal tutor or similar at the university, contact them; you could also contact the postgraduate Student Union, and your course leader.

The fact that you were given the chance to justify yourself in an oral examination sounds like a kind of appeal in itself to me. You weren't failed outright, the university gave you the chance to pull yourself through, but unfortunately you didn't. Universities really don't like having failed postgraduate degrees on their records, so they won't have taken this decision lightly. In any event, the decision of an external examiner is usually considered pretty much final: they are the arbitrator of the degree, making sure marking etc. is fair and consistent across a cohort, and that the work presented is up to the standard expected of Master's degrees. Unfortunately, it seems as if yours wasn't up to that standard.

1. 4 days notice was not enough time to mount a serious appeal in the Oral Examination. I'm working full time and happened to be working for part of the weekend so really had only a very limited time to prepare for the Oral.

2. At least one other student was contacted by their supervisor via e-Mail with advice on what to prepare for. The supervisor also asked if they could join in the Oral Examination, in the end they were not allowed. However I revived no help or information of any kind from my supervisor.

3. If I could convince another lecturer from a different university to take a look at the thesis would that be of any help? Assuming they though differently than the External Examiner?

4. One of the students who passed the Masters I know for a fact did absolutely nothing for 2 projects on Year 1 of the course. This was because he was on the same project team with myself and 2 others. We the team made a complaint and the class was giving a marking sheet to say how much work each member of the team put in. I know each of the three of us put down 0 for the person who had done none of the work. It's disgracefulness that this person now has a Masters!

5. I know other students were given extensions just because they asked. These students went on to pass. I delivered my thesis on time with no extension and subsequently failed. If students were been given extensions and my thesis was likely to fail should I not have been given the extension? Or my supervisor at least suggest that I should look for one?

6. Fairly sure it does not matter for this I'm afraid but I did receive an award from the university "Dean of Students Roll of Honour". It was for academics directly though. It was for voluntary contributions to the industry.

danthefan

On point 2: did you contact your supervisor regarding the viva to ask for help or what you should have concentrated on?

On point 5: did you ask for an extension but were declined?

touts

cronos wrote: »

She did say about a week and a half before I handed it in that she thought it was poor. I did a large redraft for about a week pulling massive hours after which she said it had improved. Not sure if she still thought it was poor at that stage.

I have not had any contact from the supervisor about the External Examiner meeting. I just really want to hear from anyone else who's gone through this.

Was this the first indication you had from her that it was poor or you were not on the right track. When I did mine I had chapter by chapter feedback from my supervisor. If you had been told all along that it was good and then with a week to go you are told it needs rework that is not enough time to do anything other than a cosmetic rewording. If you had no feedback from your supervisor than that is very poor from them. However if you had feedback all along that improvements were needed then you probably have not got a leg to stand on.

gutenberg

cronos wrote: »

1. 4 days notice was not enough time to mount a serious appeal in the Oral Examination. I'm working full time and happened to be working for part of the weekend so really had only a very limited time to prepare for the Oral.

I agree, 4 days is not enough notice. That's why I said you could possibly go this avenue with an appeal, but it really depends on what grounds your university allows appeals, and whether there were regulations that were breached with regard to giving you adequate notice. Vivas can be hard to organize unfortunately, with the student often the one given the least consideration; on my MPhil course, there were one or two cases of suspected plagiarism, and those students were called to vivas with (I think) 2 days' notice. It happens a lot, unfortunately.

2. At least one other student was contacted by their supervisor via e-Mail with advice on what to prepare for. The supervisor also asked if they could join in the Oral Examination, in the end they were not allowed. However I revived no help or information of any kind from my supervisor.

Did YOU contact your supervisor? Once you heard that you were being called for a viva, I would have thought that would be your first reaction. If they didn't contact you & they knew you had been called for a viva, that's bad form, but after you hadn't heard from them for a day or so after being called you should have taken the initiative & emailed or phoned.

3. If I could convince another lecturer from a different university to take a look at the thesis would that be of any help? Assuming they though differently than the External Examiner?

I doubt it. I can't imagine the university would allow it, as the appointment of externals is done far in advance. The only way I imagine they would would be if they agreed to a re-mark as a result of your appeal (if you make one), when a new examiner would probably be appointed.

4. One of the students who passed the Masters I know for a fact did absolutely nothing for 2 projects on Year 1 of the course. This was because he was on the same project team with myself and 2 others. We the team made a complaint and the class was giving a marking sheet to say how much work each member of the team put in. I know each of the three of us put down 0 for the person who had done none of the work. It's disgracefulness that this person now has a Masters!

What another person did or didn't do is irrelevant to your situation. For all you know, after the experience with the group work that person pulled their socks up, and submitted an excellent final thesis, which is why they passed. Master's are not graded on a curve like many undergraduate exams, so the fact that this person passed doesn't mean you were pushed out for a passing grade.

5. I know other students were given extensions just because they asked. These students went on to pass. I delivered my thesis on time with no extension and subsequently failed. If students were been given extensions and my thesis was likely to fail should I not have been given the extension? Or my supervisor at least suggest that I should look for one?

How do you know they 'just asked'? They could have had all sorts of problems: at home, with their health, both physical & mental; sometimes people get extensions for legitimate academic reasons too. As an example, I know someone who got an extension for her thesis in a social science course because the schools she was conducting interviews with messed her around so much, and it was beyond her control.

6. Fairly sure it does not matter for this I'm afraid but I did receive an award from the university "Dean of Students Roll of Honour". It was for academics directly though. It was for voluntary contributions to the industry.

Is this TCD by any chance? I know they have such a 'roll of honour'. That won't necessarily count all that much in your favour I'm afraid: it's not an academic award. Now, if you were a TCD Scholar in this situation, that award may count for something (but I still doubt it).

Just to be clear, I am on your side! I am so sorry that this has happened to you, really. But I think you also have to be honest with yourself about the quality of the work. Leaving aside the issue of the short notice for the viva (which does suck, I agree), the very fact that you were called for one indicates that your work was borderline; your supervisor said so too, and I agree with other posters that if you had circa a week to make changes, I don't know whether that would have been enough to bring the work up from poor to passing, from my own experience of Master's theses. As I said, you should contact some people and see what your options are.