Martin Mc Guinness speaks on Political Unionism.

SoulandForm

Political Unionism in Northern Ireland both by its separation from mainland UK politics and by its eccentricities and not exactly bright past suits Sinn Fein's agenda (and I dont mean that word with any sinister connotations)- however at this point in their history are Sinn Fein beginning to wish that like Plaid Cymru and the SNP the British Labour Party as the main Unionist party rather than the likes of the DUP? Do any Sinn Fein supporters or members here think that things would actually to be better if they were facing the British Labour Party?

As someone who believes in keeping the UK together but isnt from Northern Ireland I would also be interested to hear what Fratton Fred has to say.

Hannibal

The Labour party would actually represent working class protestants rather than the non representations that they get from the DUP and UUP. The Labour party wouldn't whip up hatred and have a refusal to condemn and show leadership at a time when rioting and two particular incidents have shown up certain politicians who are also members of a fascist and supremacist organisation.

Manassas61

Hannibal wrote: »

The Labour party would actually represent working class protestants rather than the non representations that they get from the DUP and UUP. The Labour party wouldn't whip up hatred and have a refusal to condemn and show leadership at a time when rioting and two particular incidents have shown up certain politicians who are also members of a fascist and supremacist organisation.

The people VOTE for the DUP and UUP and all the other Unionist parties. They have that option to you know, not vote.

Crooked Jack

Manassas61 wrote: »

The people VOTE for the DUP and UUP and all the other Unionist parties. They have that option to you know, not vote.

Most of them pick that option

Manassas61

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Most of them pick that option

Indeed. A lot of Unionists don't vote and yet the DUP is still the largest party.

Crooked Jack

Manassas61 wrote: »

Indeed. A lot of Unionists don't vote and yet the DUP is still the largest party.

Yes, iv often wondered that. for example, in the last westminster election sinn fein got almost 4000 more votes than the DUP but 3 less seats. this is all besides the point though. I was merely commenting on your assertion that unionists have the right not to vote (im not even going to get into that terrifying attitude) a decision the majority of them seem to take

Manassas61

People don't have to vote though. They are entitled to vote or not vote. Although I would rather they did but not everyone is interested or bothered enough to vote.

Hannibal

there's nothing to inspire them to vote, they know the main unionist parties don't represent them and they won't vote for SF or SPLP. It's similar down here to how Fine Gael struggle to get any type of vote in less well off areas

SoulandForm

Hannibal wrote: »

The Labour party would actually represent working class protestants rather than the non representations that they get from the DUP and UUP. The Labour party wouldn't whip up hatred and have a refusal to condemn and show leadership at a time when rioting and two particular incidents have shown up certain politicians who are also members of a fascist and supremacist organisation.

Whatever I might say against Sinn Fein and Im not their biggest fan- they definitely do not want to take us back to the Troubles and have been prepared to go very far in that regard (maybe too far times, maybe not far enough at others- but the basic will cant be denied). The same cannot be said the DUP and the UUP at the moment. The points that Martin are very serious and all correct. The fact is that the Provos are actually dedicated to peace- outside of the Alliance and NI21 I cant say the same about most of Ulster Unionism.

I do want a united Ireland- however at this point in time I dont see violence in anyway helping that along though the anti-GFA Republicans do have a lot of valid points. I believe that the arguments for independence from the UK and unity with the rest of the country are strong. Therefore having British Labour represent Unionism would all around be better.

Also there is a massive problem that the more sensible Protestant or person from a Protestant background in Northern Ireland shys away from politics- I dont think this is healthy for the society at all.

Nodin

SoulandForm wrote: »

Political Unionism in Northern Ireland both by its separation from mainland UK politics and by its eccentricities and not exactly bright past suits Sinn Fein's agenda (and I dont mean that word with any sinister connotations)- however at this point in their history are Sinn Fein beginning to wish that like Plaid Cymru and the SNP the British Labour Party as the main Unionist party rather than the likes of the DUP? Do any Sinn Fein supporters or members here think that things would actually to be better if they were facing the British Labour Party?

As someone who believes in keeping the UK together but isnt from Northern Ireland I would also be interested to hear what Fratton Fred has to say.

.....well, when the Conservatives had that alliance with the UUP, it ended in a disaster. Based on that, I can't see Labour bothering in the forseeable future, outside of some desperate effort on the part of the SDLP.

SoulandForm

Nodin wrote: »

.....well, when the Conservatives had that alliance with the UUP, it ended in a disaster. Based on that, I can't see Labour bothering in the forseeable future, outside of some desperate effort on the part of the SDLP.

And thank God it was.

Relations between the SDLP and British Labour have chilled considerably since Labour dropped its old united Ireland through consent for full blooded Unionism under Blair so that isnt going to happen.

Valid point Northern Ireland hasnt that much in common with the UK mainland politically and would be much better off just getting it over with and joining the south.

That said Ulster Protestant particularism is a dangerous force and I would much rather normal UK Unionism than it.

goose2005

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Yes, iv often wondered that. for example, in the last westminster election sinn fein got almost 4000 more votes than the DUP but 3 less seats.

UKIP and the BNP got many times what SF got and have no MPs, that's how first-past-the-post screws parties that aren't concentrated in certain geographical areas

Fratton Fred

goose2005 wrote: »

UKIP and the BNP got many times what SF got and have no MPs, that's how first-past-the-post screws parties that aren't concentrated in certain geographical areas

And with STV we ended up with the green party in power.

I've yet to see a perfect system.

Fratton Fred

SoulandForm wrote: »

Political Unionism in Northern Ireland both by its separation from mainland UK politics and by its eccentricities and not exactly bright past suits Sinn Fein's agenda (and I dont mean that word with any sinister connotations)- however at this point in their history are Sinn Fein beginning to wish that like Plaid Cymru and the SNP the British Labour Party as the main Unionist party rather than the likes of the DUP? Do any Sinn Fein supporters or members here think that things would actually to be better if they were facing the British Labour Party?

As someone who believes in keeping the UK together but isnt from Northern Ireland I would also be interested to hear what Fratton Fred has to say.

Why me in particular? I'm not especially pro union, but I do think England and Scotland are better together.

If NI wants to stay in the union them great, the more the merrier, but if they don't them good luck.

But, if you are referring to my comment in the other thread then I stand by it. Sinn Fein has become the biggest party in the north because they organise better than unionists do. The average moderate British/Irish working class is being let down by their political leaders.

Loyalists can throw their toys out of their pram as often as they like, but that doesn't work anymore and simply plays into Sinn Fein's hands, as Marty demonstrated in that clip.

Maybe a unionist Labour party is what is needed.

SoulandForm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why me in particular? I'm not especially pro union, but I do think England and Scotland are better together..

Okay sorry I misread you- I presumed that you were English and really in favour strongly of keeping the UK together as whole.

In reality Northern Ireland is part of the UK so the views of all English people on this question are important.

Fratton Fred

SoulandForm wrote: »

Okay sorry I misread you- I presumed that you were English and really in favour strongly of keeping the UK together as whole.

In reality Northern Ireland is part of the UK so the views of all English people on this question are important.

I am English and in favour of more devolution, particularly the creation of an English parliament. I do think it works well together though. NI is a bit of an oddity as far as the UK goes and I think it would be lovely to see Ireland whole again.

If you could just get Michael D to give Liz the keys back that would be great.

SoulandForm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I am English and in favour of more devolution, particularly the creation of an English parliament. I do think it works well together though. NI is a bit of an oddity as far as the UK goes and I think it would be lovely to see Ireland whole again.

If you could just get Michael D to give Liz the keys back that would be great.

I would be favour of an English parliament as well- but maybe it would be a good idea to have two or three English parliaments.

murphaph

SoulandForm wrote: »

Valid point Northern Ireland hasnt that much in common with the UK mainland politically and would be much better off just getting it over with and joining the south.

The north doesn't have much in common with the south politically either.

Manassas61

SoulandForm wrote: »

And thank God it was.

Relations between the SDLP and British Labour have chilled considerably since Labour dropped its old united Ireland through consent for full blooded Unionism under Blair so that isnt going to happen.

Valid point Northern Ireland hasnt that much in common with the UK mainland politically and would be much better off just getting it over with and joining the south.

That said Ulster Protestant particularism is a dangerous force and I would much rather normal UK Unionism than it.

Ulster politics is not normal and never has been. It can't be compared to mainland politics.