Astec alarm systems

paddymojo

Anyone fixing these alarms these days??

KoolKid

There are. We would still have 1000s of these systems working perfectly. Many things with these are easily repaired. Some companies try to dismiss this in the hope of getting a new system out of you.
What's the problem with it?

fred funk }{

I wouldn't spend too much money repairing one as it's quite likely you'll be replacing it in the near future.

KoolKid

Agreed,
But in many cases its a sensor or PiR etc. These would now be replaced with global devices that would be usable with any system you upgrade to in the future.

fred funk }{

Yeah but depending on the wiring (Astec being two wire) the house might need some additional wiring, the householder might not want that and opt for a wireless system instead.

KoolKid

I use Siemens for these upgrades. You are able to sort most wiring by using common negatives and bringing zones back on a single cable. There's also the option of the odd wireless device if you need it.

fred funk }{

There are many alarms specifically wired for Astec including wiring a 4core to the keypad and wiring nearby zones to the keypad. The likes of that will cause problems if upgrading. I can remember a certain company wiring the bells through the keypad too

My point is that I wouldn't spend too much repairing it as what you're repairing could be replaced again in the near future. An odd sensor hear and there would be grand but I wouldn't go spending a few hundred on repairs.

KoolKid

I have done many of those properties. The keypad is the only real issue.
Bells and a zone work fine, internals can be easily moved & front door to keypad is the only other issue. That's either move the keypad or a wireless contact for the front door.

paddymojo

KoolKid wrote: »

There are. We would still have 1000s of these systems working perfectly. Many things with these are easily repaired. Some companies try to dismiss this in the hope of getting a new system out of you.
What's the problem with it?

Thanks a million for getting back to me sorry its taken so long to get back to you. The problem is on the keypad it was saying contact a engineer then the outside bell was going off intermittently so I then changed the battery it sorted briefly but it started going off again so i just disconnected it altogether. You are correct in what you said too in relation to people fixing it they are more interested bin flogging me a new one saying I need all new sensors contacts etc that this system is nit compatible with any other one. Its is/ was a half decent alarm self monitoring and all that stuff if anyone can help out id be very grateful cheers???

KoolKid

What messages are you getting when it activates and what number is displaying beside call engineer.?

altor

paddymojo wrote: »

Thanks a million for getting back to me sorry its taken so long to get back to you. The problem is on the keypad it was saying contact a engineer then the outside bell was going off intermittently so I then changed the battery it sorted briefly but it started going off again so i just disconnected it altogether. You are correct in what you said too in relation to people fixing it they are more interested bin flogging me a new one saying I need all new sensors contacts etc that this system is nit compatible with any other one. Its is/ was a half decent alarm self monitoring and all that stuff if anyone can help out id be very grateful cheers???

That I am afraid is going on all the time. In some instances a simple repair to the system is all that is needed to get it up and running again. I have replaced Astects using point ID sensors. As Fred has pointed out in the boom years peoples houses where wired for Astec systems meaning a lot of devices where installed on the same cable. Can be a pain but with point ID sensors and the HKC 10/70 it is an easy enough replacement as they do wire free keypads, bells, panic buttons and so on.

To find out the fault your having, when you see the error code just post it here and we will tell you what the problem is.

KoolKid

Point ID sensors would not be necessary. Any global detectors can be converted to work with Astec. Standard sensors are more reliable than point ID in my experience with them.

altor

Point ID sensors dont work with the Astec system. It is if upgrading the system.
How long is it since you have used point ID sensors, What problems are you having? I have hundreds installed over years with no issues.

KoolKid

Regardless of whether it's a new system or not, adding point ID sensors is unnecessary and is only complicating a basic install. (and maybe increasing the price )
I have gone through the issues I have had with HKC ID sensors over the years on many threads before and I'm not going to get bogged down it it again. I too have hundreds installed that haven't given me any problems. I also have hundreds more that have. Overall I have a much higher percentage of problems with these sensors than any other type. Can't see any benefit to using these on a domestic install and even less so on an Astec retro fit where spare cores are scarce..

altor

Complicated, maybe that is where your issues with the point ID sensors are
I have no problems with these sensors and in fact find them as reliable as any other sensor I would use.
Point ID sensors have many advantages over global sensors as they have there over options, types, gross, pulse and so on. Even in terms of monitoring a group of windows or devices on a point loop. Each sensor has its own point. Panics, entry/exit, PIRs plus the windows can be on the same loop.

10 devices on a 3 core cable and to be able to give them all separate settings. Cant see how global sensors would be able to match that???

As you can see there is a benefit regardless of if the premises is commercial or domestic.

KoolKid

If you need 10 devices on the one cable on a standard domestic install then you have other problems. As you can't have a 3 core cable we will assume you have 4 core . If needed you could split that down to 3 zones of 3 or 4 devices per zone. Telling someone they need more than that is really just trying to sell them something for the sake of it IMO..
Again you say you have 100s installed without issues. Maybe when you get into the 1000s likeI have you may come across issues. In terms of sensors 100s is not much to go on really, is it. Although going on past form here I doubt you would tell us anyway...
But, as I said I'm not getting another thread bogged down with this same argument again.
You've installed 100s without issue, I've installed 1000s and have had a higher percent of issues compared to others. Although I do agree there are 100s of them that have no issues with. I think there's enough there for people to make up their own mind on it. If you do feel the need to argue it further please dig up one of the other threads or start a new one.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

If you need 10 devices on the one cable on a standard domestic install then you have other problems. As you can't have a 3 core cable we will assume you have 4 core . If needed you could split that down to 3 zones of 3 or 4 devices per zone. Telling someone they need more than that is really just trying to sell them something for the sake of it IMO..
Again you say you have 100s installed without issues. Maybe when you get into the 1000s likeI have you may come across issues. In terms of sensors 100s is not much to go on really, is it. Although going on past form here I doubt you would tell us anyway...
But, as I said I'm not getting another thread bogged down with this same argument again.
You've installed 100s without issue, I've installed 1000s and have had a higher percent of issues compared to others. Although I do agree there are 100s of them that have no issues with. I think there's enough there for people to make up their own mind on it. If you do feel the need to argue it further please dig up one of the other threads or start a new one.

I don't see any need to split this thread. This thread is about an OP who wants options with regarding an Astec install he has installed. If the case comes that he does have to upgrade the system to another system with whatever cabling he has then at lease he has the options here to decide what suits him best. You gave your options with regard another system you use so we are all entitled to our opinion.

If you where to ask how many Point ID sensors I have installed since I have started installing alarms it would be in the thousands. I use to install for Eircom phonewatch which I have installed thousands of the point ID sensors for alone, hundreds would be what I have installed for myself as Altor Security Systems. I am not claiming I have never had any faults with these devices, but I would have the same with any global sensor that I have installed.

So I ask you again since you never answered. How long is it since you have used point ID sensors and what problems are you having?

If you asked I would honestly say these sensors are as reliable as global sensors I have installed.

I know most faults from using these detectors are down to installing on the bus line plus installing and having the mains cable close to the same line.

Probably this is the case with any problems your experiencing. If you are as you say you are experiencing faults then you should have a look at this. This itself can cause issues. I would hope since you have installed thousands of these devices as you say, you are aware of this.

20 Point ID sensors can be installed on a 4 core cable and each device can be given its own point, options, types, gross, pulse and so on.. They are still on the same loop but are individual sensors on this loop. Many an install I have installed have had a loop with more than 10 devices. Its good to have an option to over come this.

KoolKid wrote: »

As you can't have a 3 core cable we will assume you have 4 core . If needed you could split that down to 3 zones of 3 or 4 devices per zone. Telling someone they need more than that is really just trying to sell them something for the sake of it IMO..

I have seen more than 10 devices on a cable on many an Astec install, sure that's the way most houses cabled for Astec systems are wired. A couple of loops suit all.. That is the whole reason behind cabling for an Astec system which has being pointed out in this thread by myself and Fred. It does not suit all in an upgrade as has also being pointed out but at lease let us all give our honest opinion of what can be done to rectify the situation.

Now upgrading to to another system is another story which is what has being suggested.

Splitting zones is an option of course but it does not suit all cases as you are suggesting as cabling installed can be an issue.

KoolKid wrote: »

adding point ID sensors is unnecessary and is only complicating a basic install.

There is nothing complicated about adding point ID sensors as your suggesting. Can you clarify what you mean by complicated???

Take an Astec loop that has external bell, panic, zones and entry/exit. Can this be split up In an upgrade with global sensors to show which device has activated in an alarm activation???

If there is a fault on a sensor as in all EN50131 ALARMs then this zone is excluded from the 4 arm of the system. Now if there is a loop of sensors as you say with the global sensors,

KoolKid wrote: »

3 or 4 devices per zone.

then this is a big vulnerability to any system installed as the sensors on this zone is omitted from the system.

Do you not agree that having each sensor as an individual sensor is a better option???

KoolKid wrote: »

Can't see any benefit to using these on a domestic install and even less so on an Astec retro fit where spare cores are scarce..

10 devices on a 3 core cable and to be able to give them all separate settings. I cant see how global sensors would be able to match that???

Can you???

KoolKid

This thread is about Astec upgrade options not the issues with HKC ID sensors . I'm not going disecting this bit by bit so ilI'll be brief. I have yet to come across an Astec upgrade where I feel the need to fit point ID sensors. Seperate zones for everything is nice but not necessary unless you are trying to sell extra to the customer.
Do you go into a normally wired 3 bed house and try to sell point ID.
I have being using Point ID since it came out, I still use it where I feel it's necessary..(eg where some faulty ones may need to be replaced. In this instance I would not be trying to sell the customer all new sensors unnecessary.)
Again I find more problems with these than other sensors. This has been looked at many times. In the past I have had HKC on site to look at issues. They found no fault with installation or wiring.. Many issues with these are well known and you will hear the same from many installers.
I see you have now installed 1000s not 100s?
Don't forget to put those goalposts back when your finished..

paddymojo

KoolKid wrote: »

What messages are you getting when it activates and what number is displaying beside call engineer.?

I disconnected the battery so I can't see the code it seamed to drain the new battery I think the whole system needs a service / repair can you help out??

paddymojo

altor wrote: »

That I am afraid is going on all the time. In some instances a simple repair to the system is all that is needed to get it up and running again. I have replaced Astects using point ID sensors. As Fred has pointed out in the boom years peoples houses where wired for Astec systems meaning a lot of devices where installed on the same cable. Can be a pain but with point ID sensors and the HKC 10/70 it is an easy enough replacement as they do wire free

To find out the fault your having, when you see the error code just post it here and we will tell you what the problem is.

I disconnected the battery so I can't see the code it seamed to drain the new battery I think the whole system needs a service / repair can you help out??

I disconnected the battery so I can't see the code it seamed to drain the new battery I think the whole system needs a service / repair can you help out??

KoolKid

Can you power it up on mains and see what's displayed on the screen?

Stoner

altor wrote: »

You gave your options with regard another system you use so we are all entitled to our opinion.

Fair enough, but can we please just keep this more inline with the OP from now on, build a bridge etc.:)

paddymojo

Gents a new battery seams to have sorted the problem an easy and pain free fix in the end from a honest knowledgeable guy I met on boards great service delighted with result thanks again nice to see there is still decent folk in d world cheers!!