If you see a Bible at your referendum voting centre

Michael Nugent

If you are voting in the referendum today, you may or may not see a Bible on display in your voting centre. The referendum staff need to have a Bible available, because the law allows people to swear on the Bible if their identity is challenged. However, you are also allowed to make a secular affirmation instead of swearing on the Bible.

If you see a Bible in your polling station, ask the staff these questions: Why is there a Bible on display? Does it have to be on display in order to be available if it is needed? Is the secular affirmation also on display? If only the Bible is on display, can you either display both or not display either?

There is also the obvious question of why the law assumes that somebody who is fraudulently impersonating somebody else would be unwilling to fraudulently swear an untrue oath, but that’s a question for another day!

Bannasidhe

Michael Nugent wrote: »

If you are voting in the referendum today, you may or may not see a Bible on display in your voting centre. The referendum staff need to have a Bible available, because the law allows people to swear on the Bible if their identity is challenged. However, you are also allowed to make a secular affirmation instead of swearing on the Bible.

If you see a Bible in your polling station, ask the staff these questions: Why is there a Bible on display? Does it have to be on display in order to be available if it is needed? Is the secular affirmation also on display? If only the Bible is on display, can you either display both or not display either?

There is also the obvious question of why the law assumes that somebody who is fraudulently impersonating somebody else would be unwilling to fraudulently swear an untrue oath, but that’s a question for another day!

I noticed the Bibles prominently on display today (never noticed them before!) and reckoned that was the reason - no secular affirmation (or 'Holy' book associated with any other religion) to be seen - I looked. Sadly, I have already voted so can't ask the questions you suggested.

hardCopy

Is a physical book required for a secular affirmation?

Genghiz Cohen

hardCopy wrote: »

Is a physical book required for a secular affirmation?

The Origin of Species

Cabaal

hardCopy wrote: »

Is a physical book required for a secular affirmation?

Teaches morals just as good as the bible does,

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0099511444/

source

hardCopy wrote: »

Is a physical book required for a secular affirmation?

Generally a copy of the constitution is used. That's how it works in court anyway.

Obliq

Seems other people noticed (I didn't either Bann - I]Oh no, wait....you did![/I - came back to find this missed opportunity for a few pointed questions!). Good to know there's observant folk in Clare!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86854484&postcount=1

swampgas

My voting centre is a small primary (RCC) school deep in the country. Not a bible in sight.

(No crosses or statues either, and what look like totem poles out the front, designed by the kids I guess. )

Obliq

swampgas wrote: »

My voting centre is a small primary (RCC) school deep in the country. Not a bible in sight.

(No crosses or statues either, and what look like totem poles out the front, designed by the kids I guess. )

So is my polling centre, but I didn't look tbh. Too busy yapping with the staff

Mockba

There was a bible in my poll station, the guy was using it as a ruler to cross names off the list

Obliq

Mockba wrote: »

There was a bible in my poll station, the guy was using it as a ruler to cross names off the list

Mine used a ruler. It's a school....Could have brought my kid's lunch box home, come to think of it. ~Damn~

Mockba

Multi-tasking objects.

swampgas

Mockba wrote: »

There was a bible in my poll station, the guy was using it as a ruler to cross names off the list

Aaarrgh - there must be a truly stupendous pun in that statement waiting to be found, but I got nuthin'! :mad:

Brian Shanahan

Mockba wrote: »

There was a bible in my poll station, the guy was using it as a ruler to cross names off the list

Best use of a bible. EVER!

hfallada

OP I don't see your point? If you don't agree with a bible in the polling station say to it the referendum commission, not a old women doing a job for one day. It's like giving out to a shop assistant earning €8,65 for his company treatment in a foreign country. He/she is just following company rules and doing their job. Likewise the person working in the polling station is doing theirs

Obliq

hfallada wrote: »

OP I don't see your point? If you don't agree with a bible in the polling station say to it the referendum commission, not a old women doing a job for one day. It's like giving out to a shop assistant earning €8,65 for his company treatment in a foreign country. He/she is just following company rules and doing their job. Likewise the person working in the polling station is doing theirs

No, it's not like that at all. To say it to the (my age, I meet them for a pint) women doing the job-for-one-day indicates that we are not all the same, we are not catered for and it is not fair. It also goes against our supposedly secular and all encompassing nation's aspirations. As most people in Ireland (being cosily RCC) don't see the problems we of different or no religions face in Ireland day to day, it is our task to point this out so that more people are aware.

Dinner

The Oath for non religious people isn't in a special book, and neither is it sworn on the constitution. Its outlined in the Manual for Presiding Officers book. It takes the form of a number of questions followed by a brief affirmation paragraph.

On topic, please don't start asking me questions like that about the bible. I don't care about it, I take it out of the bag at the beginning of the day and leave it on a shelf until we're done. It being on display isn't a subtle hint at the catholic ethos of me, my polling room or anything else. It's just somewhere to leave it.

Obliq

Dinner wrote: »

The Oath for non religious people isn't in a special book, and neither is it sworn on the constitution. Its outlined in the Manual for Presiding Officers book. It takes the form of a number of questions followed by a brief affirmation paragraph.

On topic, please don't start asking me questions like that about the bible. I don't care about it, I take it out of the bag at the beginning of the day and leave it on a shelf until we're done. It being on display isn't a subtle hint at the catholic ethos of me, my polling room or anything else. It's just somewhere to leave it.

Nobody said it's a hint at the ethos of the staff at a polling station - we know you're just doing a job. To people of other religions and none though, it is a hint that there is one religion that is ok in this state and we aren't in the family. As you can surely imagine, we have to take a stand on this - not by getting personal with presiding officers, but by pointing this shortcoming out day by day where we meet it.

Thanks for your post btw. Not asking you questions, just thanking you!

average_runner

Michael Nugent wrote: »

If you are voting in the referendum today, you may or may not see a Bible on display in your voting centre. The referendum staff need to have a Bible available, because the law allows people to swear on the Bible if their identity is challenged. However, you are also allowed to make a secular affirmation instead of swearing on the Bible.

If you see a Bible in your polling station, ask the staff these questions: Why is there a Bible on display? Does it have to be on display in order to be available if it is needed? Is the secular affirmation also on display? If only the Bible is on display, can you either display both or not display either?

There is also the obvious question of why the law assumes that somebody who is fraudulently impersonating somebody else would be unwilling to fraudulently swear an untrue oath, but that’s a question for another day!

We are still a majority Catholic country. If u dont like it, hard ****.

I don't follow a religion either.

swampgas

average_runner wrote: »

We are still a majority Catholic country. If u dont like it, hard ****.

I don't follow a religion either.

Nice.

Majority religion is irrelevant. We're also mostly white-skinned, should that give white people special privileges?

Obliq

average_runner wrote: »

We are still a majority Catholic country. If u dont like it, hard ****.

I don't follow a religion either.

If you don't like it, hard ****? How did anyone get anywhere fixing injustice with that attitude? You might not follow religion, but you might have been born and confirmed into the "right" one in this country where you're not held back by not being part of it. Hence, you don't see the problem. There's a big problem with non-separation of state and church, and there's only one way to fix it. Start pointing out the problem, that's how.

average_runner

swampgas wrote: »

Nice.

Majority religion is irrelevant. We're also mostly white-skinned, should that give white people special privileges?

No one is getting extra privileges

Red Nissan

TBH, the stupid voting slips were confusing enough for me, I actually asked for one in English as I don't know the Irish, was the Irish on one side previously?

So I did not notice any Bible, Holy Cross NS, Cork.

average_runner

Obliq wrote: »

If you don't like it, hard ****? How did anyone get anywhere fixing injustice with that attitude? You might not follow religion, but you might have been born and confirmed into the "right" one in this country where you're not held back by not being part of it. Hence, you don't see the problem. There's a big problem with non-separation of state and church, and there's only one way to fix it. Start pointing out the problem, that's how.

Not a Catholic and was never held back by the church

Obliq

average_runner wrote: »

No one is getting extra privileges

Yes, yes they are. You are sorely mistook mate. Ever tried being an atheist and running for president? Can't be done.

Anyone else? Have to get off the easy PC and go on crappy netbook. Young fella at me. Interesting conversation though! Don't go away....

robindch

doughef wrote: »

Fu**in Pri**ks

Doug is now enjoying a late summer holiday from A+A.

Obliq

doughef wrote: »

I'd imagine the OP and his followers are closet homos and not excepted by the Catholic church..

So now there all 'atheist' and take their anger and frustration out on old ladies working in polling stations..

Fu**in Pri**ks...

Stay in your closets you keyboard wan*ers

THEIR anger? Petal, you're displaying an unwarranted level of anger here and now. We are not taking out anger, just pointing out facts. There is a difference.

Brian Shanahan

average_runner wrote: »

We are still a majority Catholic country. If u dont like it, hard ****.

I don't follow a religion either.

Wrong, we're a majority soi-disant catholic country. Even out here in the sticks most people I know (young and old) most people don't have a religion besides a vague apprehension of "what if god really exists?", and only go along with the "I'm a catholic" thing because they don't realise how enfeebled the church actually is.

uck51js9zml2yt

I'm a Christian and wouldnt think of swearing on the bible. A simple affirmation will do.
the bible itself says not to swear but to let your yes be yes and no be no.

Red Nissan

Terrence Rancid Surgeon wrote: »

I'm a Christian and wouldnt think of swearing on the bible. A simple affirmation will do.
the bible itself says not to swear but to let your yes be yes and no be no.

So toss it altogether. Seeing as I've NEVER read the dam thing, never bought one, under duress of expulsion from school. was the first to rip the supplied rubbish and trash the room on leaving. Circa 1972.

GLaDOS

The fact that affirmation, whether it be secular, christian or otherwise, is acceptable if you don't have ID seem the most ridiculous part to me.

Is it common in other countries?

UrbanSea

doughef wrote: »

<snip>

I think the OP was a stupid point but I wouldn't say this but it still gave me a laugh :cool:

uck51js9zml2yt

Red Nissan wrote: »

So toss it altogether. Seeing as I've NEVER read the dam thing, never bought one, under duress of expulsion from school. was the first to rip the supplied rubbish and trash the room on leaving. Circa 1972.

that you think trashing a classroom is acceptable says a lot!

Kidchameleon

You would want to be very sad indeed to moan at a person working at a poling station about a bible.

Obliq

UrbanSea wrote: »

I think the OP was a stupid point but I wouldn't say this but it still gave me a laugh :cool:

I don't get what you're saying at all?

Do you mean you agree with the homophobic, ignorant and WAAAY over-angry post, but wouldn't have put it like that? However, you think the idea of having equal rights is stupid, but aren't willing to tell us why......

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You would want to be very sad indeed to moan at a person working at a poling station about a bible.

Nice for you to have some company of your own age in A & A at last Kid. There is no moaning, only questions about equality that I didn't know the answer to until guess what? A Presiding Officer from a polling station told me (read up-thread). Thanks again Dinner!

TwoShedsJackson

Shocking to see KidChameleon weighing in with his usual 'it doesn't bother me therefore no-one else should mention or complain about it, ever' attitude.

tfitzgerald

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You would want to be very sad indeed to moan at a person working at a poling station about a bible.

The most sensible post on here. I can't believe people are complaining about a bible.

Obliq

tfitzgerald wrote: »

The most sensible post on here. I can't believe people are complaining about a bible.

Why? Because it doesn't affect you, so therefore we all should have no problem with it?

tfitzgerald

Obliq wrote: »

Why? Because it doesn't affect you, so therefore we all should have no problem with it?

In what way does a bible affect you. If your that easily offended by a bible in a majority catholic country then I don't know what to say to you

losthorizon

Michael Nugent wrote: »

If you are voting in the referendum today, you may or may not see a Bible on display in your voting centre. The referendum staff need to have a Bible available, because the law allows people to swear on the Bible if their identity is challenged. However, you are also allowed to make a secular affirmation instead of swearing on the Bible.

If you see a Bible in your polling station, ask the staff these questions: Why is there a Bible on display? Does it have to be on display in order to be available if it is needed? Is the secular affirmation also on display? If only the Bible is on display, can you either display both or not display either?

There is also the obvious question of why the law assumes that somebody who is fraudulently impersonating somebody else would be unwilling to fraudulently swear an untrue oath, but that’s a question for another day!

I thought we lived in a secular republic? NO?

Kidchameleon

Obliq wrote: »

Why? Because it doesn't affect you, so therefore we all should have no problem with it?

Could you explain exactly, how does a book sitting on a table effect you? I just cant get my head around that.

You must bloody hate library's.

Geomy

tfitzgerald wrote: »

The most sensible post on here. I can't believe people are complaining about a bible.

I actually can believe it, the hypocrisy of not believing in something and then getting offended by it.

But this is the Atheists forum and some are still emotionally attached to the big book.

It must have had some negative impact on their lives, but they don't believe in it.

Im sure there's atheists that can detach from the big book and it doesn't bother them, other's are still wound up about it. .....

Pherekydes

Geomy wrote: »

I actually can believe it, the hypocrisy of not believing in something and then getting offended by it.

But this is the Atheists forum and some are still emotionally attached to the big book.

It must have had some negative impact on their lives, but they don't believe in it.

Im sure there's atheists that can detach from the big book and it doesn't bother them, other's are still wound up about it. .....

The bible doesn't bother me, but if I'm asked to swear on it I won't. Isn't that the point of the thread? No one's talking about being bound to the bible. In fact, we're talking about being unbound from it. No one's talking about moaning or harassing staff; just making civil and polite enquiries.

As usual, a certain element tries to misrepresent the position of A&A regulars. To what end?

Manach

Pherekydes wrote: »

As usual, a certain element tries to misrepresent the position of A&A regulars. To what end?

Because it is such fun, ye being such the sensitive typeswhen been mocked instead doing the mocking..

Kidchameleon

Pherekydes wrote: »

The bible doesn't bother me, but if I'm asked to swear on it I won't. Isn't that the point of the thread? No one's talking about being bound to the bible. In fact, we're talking about being unbound from it. No one's talking about moaning or harassing staff; just making civil and polite enquiries.

As usual, a certain element tries to misrepresent the position of A&A regulars. To what end?

Ah now come on, your completely mis representing the op there.

Bannasidhe

Pherekydes wrote: »

The bible doesn't bother me, but if I'm asked to swear on it I won't. Isn't that the point of the thread? No one's talking about being bound to the bible. In fact, we're talking about being unbound from it. No one's talking about moaning or harassing staff; just making civil and polite enquiries.

As usual, a certain element tries to misrepresent the position of A&A regulars. To what end?

Exactly. People are questioning why the 'Holy' book associated with one set of religious beliefs is placed in a prominent position during an electoral process to determine civil legislation.

30 years of voting and I never noticed it there before, but yesterday I could hardly miss the blasted thing as it was slap bang next to the voting slips.

In a potentially divisive referendum on issues like Same-Sex marriage or Repeal of the 8th Amendment where one can be sure various Christian denominations will be very vocal in their opposition using that same book as their justification - to then have that book on display next to the voting slip/boxes is patiently inappropriate.

Brian Shanahan

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You would want to be very sad indeed to moan at a person working at a poling station about a bible.

I find it very sad when a religious apologist pretends not to be religious him/herself, in order to play the "I'm not bothered so you shouldn't be" part.

Brian Shanahan

Manach wrote: »

Because it is such fun, ye being such the sensitive typeswhen been mocked instead doing the mocking..

Manach, I think this is post is a case of you taking your own characteristic and projecting it on others.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

30 years of voting and I never noticed it there before, but yesterday I could hardly miss the blasted thing as it was slap bang next to the voting slips.

I was lucky, myself, it was a choice between a Kindle version of Ulysses or a Hello! magazine from what was at my polling station.

Geomy

Pherekydes wrote: »

The bible doesn't bother me, but if I'm asked to swear on it I won't. Isn't that the point of the thread? No one's talking about being bound to the bible. In fact, we're talking about being unbound from it. No one's talking about moaning or harassing staff; just making civil and polite enquiries.

As usual, a certain element tries to misrepresent the position of A&A regulars. To what end?

No 1 I said nothing about harassing staff.
So you can take me out of that bracket...

Not many people have a choice when it comes to drinking tap water with chemicals in it, but they still use it. ...

The Bible thing is a tradition, I suppose there's no Halloween (Samhain) or Christmas (Nollaig) in your house...

What happens in St Stephens day when the Wren Bhouys come knocking on your door. ..

Bah humbug. .....

Geomy

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I find it very sad when a religious apologist pretends not to be religious him/herself, in order to play the "I'm not bothered so you shouldn't be" part.

Its also sad when someone tells someone they're an apologist and pretending. ...
That cunning baffling technique of discussion is well worn out here.
Can you get to the point, rather than cunning sound bites :-)

losthorizon

tfitzgerald wrote: »

In what way does a bible affect you. If your that easily offended by a bible in a majority catholic country then I don't know what to say to you

But, the government represents the whole people of the country not a significant majority - Catholic, protestant, dissenter, muslim, jewish, atheist etc

Working in an official capacity surely there should be no religious symbols brought in by the state. Anyway we are as I pointed out earlier as I believe a secular republic - that is what makes us different thankfully to say the UK at least in principal. In private you can do what you want.