Change to Football Championship??

Warper

Just wondering what peoples opinions are regarding the Football Championship.
I put up a number of polls to see what people think.

1. Keep as is
2. Change to Champions League format with the 8 teams in League 1 to be seeded. This would help the League also. Playoff needed for London, NY or whoever to fit.
3. Open KO comp. like FA Cup
4. Split into two comps like the Christy Ring cup for more competitive matches

There are so many other options but we could be here all night..

Gerry91

Warper wrote: »

Just wondering what peoples opinions are regarding the Football Championship.
I put up a number of polls to see what people think.

1. Keep as is
2. Change to Champions League format with previous years 8 quarter finalists seeded (8 groups of 4). Playoff needed for London, NY or whoever to fit.
3. Open KO comp. like FA Cup
4. Split into two comps like the Christy Ring cup for more competitive matches

There are so many other options but we could be here all night.

Not that I'm actively in favour of it (to be fair haven't thought about it enough) but another option is evening out the provinces of sorts (eg Wexford to Munster, Longford to Connacht and so on)

Warper

I think actually it prob should be the 8 teams in League 1 should be seeded.

john mayo 10

Warper wrote: »

I think actually it prob should be the 8 teams in League 1 should be seeded.

This would be a better way to seed it. It woukd put more importance on the league

feichin

32/34 Teams go into an open draw.
16/17 first round losers play out a "sheild" type competition.
Provincial championships played off as usual.
Final 4 teams in open draw comp. play 4 provincial winners @ QF stage.
(If a team qualifies through both channels the beaten provincial finalists could be co-opted into their place)
ADVANTAGES:- Every game is knockout.
Every team has an equal chance of drawing an easy or
difficult opponent
Every team is gauranteed a minimum of 3 matches.
(Most teams would get more)
DISADVANTAGE:-About 30 additional matches would need to be
accommodated nationally
This might not be the major problem that it appears
Open Draw matches could be played on Sunday's
Sheild matches could be played on sat eve of the same
w/end
Provincial Championship could be played on Friday evenings
obviously with a Sunday set aside for finals

Fr Tod Umptious

Gerry91 wrote: »

Not that I'm actively in favour of it (to be fair haven't thought about it enough) but another option is evening out the provinces of sorts (eg Wexford to Munster, Longford to Connacht and so on)

I think something like that would be the best first move rather than a radical change
Ditch NY, sorry NY, and have 4 'regions' of 8 teams
That means that all teams have to play the same amount to win a 'regional' championship
Keep the existing back door system, and since you have even regions the format of the qualifiers will be more even also
Make the All Ireland Semi-finals a random draw rather than a rotation system

iDave

1. Keep as is
I can think of worse scenarios but it will forever lead to people complaining about the various inequities

2. Change to Champions League format with the 8 teams in League 1 to be seeded. This would help the League also. Playoff needed for London, NY or whoever to fit.
Hmmm in theory it could work. I am a romantic though and I love the provincial rivalries

3. Open KO comp. like FA Cup
Marketing disaster. How can you build a fan base if your team only has one game

4. Split into two comps like the Christy Ring cup for more competitive matches
No no no. This will kill Gaelic Football in relegated counties. It wont improve them and there will be a man and his dog in the terraces.


I'd be in favour of provincials played on a round robin basis with 2 groups. The winners of the group play in the provincial final. Possibly some sort of playoff/qualifier for group runner ups with the winners meeting provincial champs in AI QF. Minimum 6 games for every team in the country. Old rivalries intact un like Champs League format. County grounds will actually get used. Provincial boundaries will have to be re-drawn as ideally you'll need 8 teams for 2 groups of 4.

prospect

32 Teams (NY & London can play off to compete).

1st Seeds based on previous years All Ireland Semi Finalists
2nd Seeds based on National League position
3rd & 4th are the remainder of the competitors.

Open draw to have 8 groups of 4.

Group winners go forward into a straight knockout competition.

Gerry91

Yeah I've thought about it and I believe the provinces should be kept only for it should be 8 teams in each, what Tod says above ^^^.

It's better for fans (less travelling distances), still maintains the good aul provincial rivalries, and is an improvement on the current sructure without having to devaite too much. Rather than going by province maybe splitting it into East, West, South and North might be better

For example you could have:

West- Mayo, Donegal, Galway, Ros, Leitrim, Sligo, LDN, Longford

East- Dublin, Meath, Louth, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath, carlow

North- Armagh, Cavan, Tyrone, Monaghan, Down, Derry, Antrim, Fermanagh

South- Kerry, Cork, Wexford, Wicklow, Tipperary, Limerick, Waterford, Clare

Each province has quarter finals- semis- final. Each provincial winning team will now have played the same number of matches.

Also, I'd start championship in June to reduce the ridiculous gaps between matches for certain teams. late June at that

Think that system is the finest can't see any real cons, bar the fact Munster is still going to be dominated by the big 2 but the addition of Wexford could be beneficial. NO SEEDING IN ANY REGION EITHER

In my opinion, this method would work best

Gerry91

Something I've heard briefly mentioned before and I actually would love to see- though I cant see it happening and I'd imagine loads would be against it- is two legged All Ireland Quarter and Semi-finals

You could have it as home and away- can you imagine getting to watch your county play a semi-final in your own back yard- or both in Croker, seeing as they play any game here at a whimper nowadays.

I'd welcome it personally. Puts to bed any nonsense that provincial winners don't get a second chance and reduces chances of a quarter or semi being decided solely on a controversial decision or red card or whatever. Obviously go on aggregate score. Generally the best team would advance and would be really intriguing

Imagine loads will disagree but I'd love it

Final then one game obviously

Quixoticelixer

Big no to Champions League format. Champions League is a bloated monster full of dead rubbers in the latter rounds of the group stage. Double knockout is a good format.

Biggest problem is scheduling, and numbers in the provinces, I would shift the borders to create 4 conferences of 8 teams, North, South, East and West.


EDIT; Pretty much exactly what Gerry91 said in his first post, just read over the thread now!

WesternZulu

I'd go with the idea of redistributing the teams in the provincial championships.

Otherwise what do lower teams have to aim for otherwise?

You could go all American and call them the Western Conference, The Northern Conference, The Southern Conference, and the Eastern Conference :pac:

A round robin structure should be considered as well before the quarter finals within the newly formed regions.

Hibbeler

how about the championship is split into an upper and lower tier like in hurling with the liam mc carthy and christy ring cups but with players from the lower tier teams being given the chance to line out for a 'regional' representative team similar to the idea for an Ulster hurling team or how the club championships are played in Kerry?

would this work? would such representative teams be able to compete against the larger stronger counties?

Miccoli

Get rid of o'byrne cup etc and play the 7 league games from late january to the start of april , no finals or semi finals the team who are top of the league win it.

Then play the provincial championships completely seperate from the all ireland from mid april to mid may. Then a champions league style 8 groups of 4 (seeded)
top 2 teams go through to last 16 which is straight knock out and if losers want they can play a B championship.

Darkest Horse

Hibbeler wrote: »

how about the championship is split into an upper and lower tier like in hurling with the liam mc carthy and christy ring cups but with players from the lower tier teams being given the chance to line out for a 'regional' representative team similar to the idea for an Ulster hurling team or how the club championships are played in Kerry?

would this work? would such representative teams be able to compete against the larger stronger counties?

You're serious?

shiibata

7 votes from Kerry and Cork so far:P

Hibbeler

Darkest Horse wrote: »

You're serious?

Why not? It's just a suggestion

There's not going to be any major changes to the championship structure for the forseeable future anyway. That means any talk of champions leagues formats and dipsosal of provincial championships are out the window.

The problem as it stands is the gulf in class between the top teams and the bottom teams. In most major sports this is dealt with by promotion/relegation or in american sports the team that finished bottom getting first pick of the best new players coming through the idea being to keep all teams competitive. This is not dealt with in GAA at all as it stands

By the way to anyone suggesting a 'Champions League' type format or anything with a round robin, I would suggest a quick look at the Meath club championships to see why this would not work! Too many pointless matches. In particular this years intermediate championship which had no relegation this year and the end result was that certain teams who had no chance of reaching the knockout stages and had nothing to play for ended up in a couple of cases fielding weakened teams and receiving big beatings and in at least one case just giving a walkover.

Darkest Horse

Just can't see anybody getting behind a regional side.

Hibbeler

Darkest Horse wrote: »

Just can't see anybody getting behind a regional side.

Would be tough at the start granted, but the second such a team achieved something or reached a final supporters will be coming out of the woodwork! After a few years people would come to accept it.

In fact we already see this phenomenon to some degree, people who wouldn't be see dead at a league game suddenly becoming the biggest supporters in september.

Quixoticelixer

Hibbeler wrote: »

Would be tough at the start granted, but the second such a team achieved something or reached a final supporters will be coming out of the woodwork! After a few years people would come to accept it.

In fact we already see this phenomenon to some degree, people who wouldn't be see dead at a league game suddenly becoming the biggest supporters in september.

I can only speak for myself here, but as a Limerick man I'd have no interest in supporting say Munster minus Cork and Kerry. Even if they were competetive. Maybe you're right and people would eventually take to these teams, but I just don't see it happening personally.

I just wouldn't feel connected to Munster regional team in the same way I feel connected to Limerick.

Darkest Horse

Hibbeler wrote: »

Would be tough at the start granted, but the second such a team achieved something or reached a final supporters will be coming out of the woodwork! After a few years people would come to accept it.

In fact we already see this phenomenon to some degree, people who wouldn't be see dead at a league game suddenly becoming the biggest supporters in september.

No chance in my opinion. I think your league example isn't applicable at all.

Hibbeler

Quixoticelixer wrote: »

I can only speak for myself here, but as a Limerick man I'd have no interest in supporting say Munster minus Cork and Kerry. Even if they were competetive. Maybe you're right and people would eventually take to these teams, but I just don't see it happening personally.

I just wouldn't feel connected to Munster regional team in the same way I feel connected to Limerick.

Fair enough, I knew that this sort of a suggestion would be unpopular in some quarters. I'm not suggesting that the limerick football team or that of any other county be disbanded. I'm just throwing an idea out there for debate. If people are going to suggest changing the championship format, might as well look at the entire system

Darkest Horse wrote: »

No chance in my opinion. I think your league example isn't applicable at all.

You're right in that it won't happen, far too much politics and compromises would be involved. In fact I'm not even sure I would like to see it myself

But in terms of would such a team gather support after a time I believe they would. You are wrong to think that my league example isn't applicable. The same thing would happen for a regional GAA team in that they would have low crowds for the most part at the start but once they reached a final the bandwagon would by that stage firmly be in motion.

Darkest Horse

Hibbeler wrote: »

Fair enough, I knew that this sort of a suggestion would be unpopular in some quarters. I'm not suggesting that the limerick football team or that of any other county be disbanded. I'm just throwing an idea out there for debate. If people are going to suggest changing the championship format, might as well look at the entire system



You're right in that it won't happen, far too much politics and compromises would be involved. In fact I'm not even sure I would like to see it myself

But in terms of would such a team gather support after a time I believe they would. You are wrong to think that my league example isn't applicable. The same thing would happen for a regional GAA team in that they would have low crowds for the most part at the start but once they reached a final the bandwagon would by that stage firmly be in motion.

I don't think so. Limerick people will get behind the Limerick team if they go far in the championship because there is a pre-existing affinity for the team amongst the county's inhabitants. There is no affinity for a regional team and so Limerick people would not necessarily get behind a successful regional side. That little tingle of excitement and belonging would never ignite as it would if Limerick were to go far. I would predict apathy towards such a team. A living, breathing example is the Railway Cup. Nobody pays attention to it. It's meaningless.

Hibbeler

Darkest Horse wrote: »

I don't think so. Limerick people will get behind the Limerick team if they go far in the championship because there is a pre-existing affinity for the team amongst the county's inhabitants. There is no affinity for a regional team and so Limerick people would not necessarily get behind a successful regional side. That little tingle of excitement and belonging would never ignite as it would if Limerick were to go far. I would predict apathy towards such a team. A living, breathing example is the Railway Cup. Nobody pays attention to it. It's meaningless.

Such an affinity would have to be built up over time but with the right marketing it could definitely be manufactured! maintaining it over the short to medium term would be biggest challenge but it most definitely is possible. Perhaps at the expense of genuine supporters of the original county teams.

Darkest Horse

Hibbeler wrote: »

Such an affinity would have to be built up over time but with the right marketing it could definitely be manufactured! maintaining it over the short to medium term would be biggest challenge but it most definitely is possible. Perhaps at the expense of genuine supporters of the original county teams.

Maybe but again, I don't think so. In rugby, look at the support for the indigenous Irish provinces when compared to the manufactured Welsh and Scottish regions.

Ace2007

feichin wrote: »

This might not be the major problem that it appears
Open Draw matches could be played on Sunday's
Sheild matches could be played on sat eve of the same
w/end
Provincial Championship could be played on Friday evenings
obviously with a Sunday set aside for finals

you do know the guys are amateurs right?
Like playing games Friday evenings has only being done once?

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

The biggest problem this season, with the exception of a few games, was the gap between Div 1 sides and the rest. Creating a Champions League style format would only exacerbate the problem. Most Div 1 sides would have their group wrapped up after 4 games, leading to numerous dead rubber games.

The best option above IMO is tiering the championship. Less games overall but more competitive games. It would do counties like Galway, Armagh and Westmeath the world of good if they could actually compete in a competition with a view to winning it. Next best option is FA Cup style, but then again if all the big guns met each other early on, which is bound to happen some years, then everyone will be complaining. Hard to know what the best option is, but one thing is for sure imo, a change does need to happen. There's only 1 properly competitive provincial championship at the moment.

Carawaystick

I think it should be left alone
As a wickla man, who haven't won Leinster ever, it's still a target

Firstly you have the ulster championship
A dogged tough beast
I can't see anyone from ulster wanting to change this.

I don't think the best team in any of the other provinces has lost (apart from Louth) and not because of the structures

Gerry91

Those that feel it should be left alone, surely the 4 regions x 8 teams would be what ye want aswell? It's basically exactly what it is right now (bar an odd team switching "province") except better, to put it simply-

- fairer- each provincial winner plays the same amount of matches.
- Makes for an easier fixture list and most teams will have very similar waiting times for their next game.
- Can only make the provinces more competitive (lets be honest 3 of them couldn't be much more one-sided now, two-sided in Munsters case )

I couldn't possibly imagine why anyone would prefer the current system over this. It's an improvement in every way. Bar, I guess, the traditionalists who might object to other teams coming into the "province".

klairondavis

Gerry91 wrote: »

Bar, I guess, the traditionalists who might object to other teams coming into the "province".

I'm certain there would be plenty connected with those teams being moved who would object. I can't see a Laois man or a Wexford man being too happy at being moved into Munster, likewise a Donegal man or a Longford man at being moved into Connacht.

The system we have is deeply flawed but the alternatives are equally flawed. Any system with a round robin format would have too many dead rubber fixtures. Redrawing the provincial boundaries would be met with fierce resistance in the counties who would be effected most and it would never get through congress as a result. Any attempts to split the championship into A and B divisions would have similar problems getting through congress and it would only serve to increase the gap between the strong and the weak in the long run.

Gerry91

klairondavis wrote: »

I'm certain there would be plenty connected with those teams being moved who would object. I can't see a Laois man or a Wexford man being too happy at being moved into Munster, likewise a Donegal man or a Longford man at being moved into Connacht.

The system we have is deeply flawed but the alternatives are equally flawed. Any system with a round robin format would have too many dead rubber fixtures. Redrawing the provincial boundaries would be met with fierce resistance in the counties who would be effected most and it would never get through congress as a result. Any attempts to split the championship into A and B divisions would have similar problems getting through congress and it would only serve to increase the gap between the strong and the weak in the long run.

Wexford and Donegal would surely be mad to oppose it. The "west" region would be far easier than ulster right now. Bar mayo, donegal would beat every Connacht team handy.

Same with Wexford. Should Kerry and cork be drawn in an opposite half they'd be a cert to make a final surely. Whereas in Leinster there's way too many teams that are at or above their level.

Similarly with Longford are you serious? London made a Connacht final this year if I was from Longford I'd bite your hand off to be moved. They're a long way off reaching a Leinster final

Longford play minor league in Connacht too

klairondavis

Gerry91 wrote: »

Wexford and Donegal would surely be mad to oppose it. The "west" region would be far easier than ulster right now. Bar mayo, donegal would beat every Connacht team handy.

Same with Wexford. Should Kerry and cork be drawn in an opposite half they'd be a cert to make a final surely. Whereas in Leinster there's way too many teams that are at or above their level.

Similarly with Longford are you serious? London made a Connacht final this year if I was from Longford I'd bite your hand off to be moved. They're a long way off reaching a Leinster final

Longford play minor league in Connacht too

Whether these regions would be easier to win for the counties concerned is largely irrelevant. They each have their own history in their own province, their own local rivals, local derby match etc. You cannot simply create that same sense of tradition for the counties concerned in what essentially is another province. Maybe they would be better off in these regions in the long run but I really doubt that the people concerned in these counties would see it that way.

Gerry91

klairondavis wrote: »

Whether these regions would be easier to win for the counties concerned is largely irrelevant. They each have their own history in their own province, their own local rivals, local derby match etc. You cannot simply create that same sense of tradition for the counties concerned in what essentially is another province. Maybe they would be better off in these regions in the long run but I really doubt that the people concerned in these counties would see it that way.

Well if that's the case I think they're mad

Surely you'd rather have a better chance of going further in a championship than staying put just down to tradition.

The way it is now clearly isn't fair on everyone. A change is inevitable I think and I have a feeling this is what they'll go for.

Regardless a lot of "tradition" will have to be done away with, to make a fairer championship structure viable

Syferus

Oh, it's this time of the year again. Carry on.

Fr Tod Umptious

klairondavis wrote: »

Whether these regions would be easier to win for the counties concerned is largely irrelevant. They each have their own history in their own province, their own local rivals, local derby match etc. You cannot simply create that same sense of tradition for the counties concerned in what essentially is another province. Maybe they would be better off in these regions in the long run but I really doubt that the people concerned in these counties would see it that way.

But rearranging in the provinces into equal regions is about the least disruptive way of restructuring the competition

If you think people will be up in arms about that how do you think they will be about champions league type groups, FA type open draws or two tier hurling type championships

klairondavis

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But rearranging in the provinces into equal regions is about the least disruptive way of restructuring the competition

If you think people will be up in arms about that how do you think they will be about champions league type groups, FA type open draws or two tier hurling type championships

I feel the same about those reforms.

For all it's flaws, the current provincial system is probably here to stay for the foreseeable future - better the divil you know as far as the administrators are concerned. There's no doubt that the provinces have lost their edge since the introduction of the backdoor so some sort of reform of the qualifier system is more likely in the short term. It's ridiculous that teams who have won their first match in their province, such as Wicklow and Westmeath this year, can be eliminated in round 1, while a team who lose their first match in their province, like Roscommon this year, can go straight into round 2. The current provincial structures complicate things greatly but they will still be at the heart of any new or reformed structure. The provincial councils are too powerful - turkeys won't vote for Christmas.

Fr Tod Umptious

klairondavis wrote: »

I feel the same about those reforms.

For all it's flaws, the current provincial system is probably here to stay for the foreseeable future - better the divil you know as far as the administrators are concerned. There's no doubt that the provinces have lost their edge since the introduction of the backdoor so some sort of reform of the qualifier system is more likely in the short term. It's ridiculous that teams who have won their first match in their province, such as Wicklow and Westmeath this year, can be eliminated in round 1, while a team who lose their first match in their province, like Roscommon this year, can go straight into round 2. The current provincial structures complicate things greatly but they will still be at the heart of any new or reformed structure. The provincial councils are too powerful - turkeys won't vote for Christmas.

Another reason for 4 provinces of 8
Everyone plays a quarter final first, so all QF loosers enter the qualifiers as the same stage, and so on

Does anyone know if there is an official football review group looking at the structure of the championship ?

klairondavis

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Another reason for 4 provinces of 8
Everyone plays a quarter final first, so all QF loosers enter the qualifiers as the same stage, and so on

It would be ideal if there was an equal uniformed provincial structure but it's unlikely to ever happen. The counties concerned will never support it.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Does anyone know if there is an official football review group looking at the structure of the championship ?

They are. Due to release their findings before Christmas I think.

endabob1

I know these threads come along like busses

I looked at this a couple of years ago and came up with the following basic plan
Which was to make 2 "pools" in each province, so each province would need to be an even number of teams.
Leinster has 12 so 2 pools of 6 winner of one plays runner up in the other in provincial Semi Finals with the winners in a Leinster Final
Ulster has 9, so you would need to stick either New york or London in there, 2 pools of 5, same deal as above, winner in 1 plays Rup in other and then on to a provincial final
Munster has 6 so 2 pools of 3, same as above
Connacht has 5 plus either London or New York and again same as above.

Four provincial winners in AI Semis and then final

A LOT more games I know 77 in total if I've added them all up, but this isn't as many more as you might think.
I counted 62 games in the current set up, which has a higher probability of replays.
Also you could trim the number of games in Leinster particularly by making it 4 pools of 3 in which case you would basically end up with pretty much the same number of games as the current system.
To win an All-Ireland you would play a minimum of 6 games and you could only really get away with losing 1 pool game, it's all knock out from there.

Main flaws to me is that you would end up with dead rubbers in Ulster and in Leinster if you went with 2 pools rather than 4.
Also you need to seed the draw and you could end up with bigger teams cruising in the pool stages knowing that 1 win will probably be enough from the 2 games.

What I like is that it retains the provincial titles, it gives teams a minimum 2 games and lets everyone have a shot at winning the All Ireland as opposed to the 2 tier system proposals.

iDave

endabob1 wrote: »

I know these threads come along like busses

I looked at this a couple of years ago and came up with the following basic plan
Which was to make 2 "pools" in each province, so each province would need to be an even number of teams.
Leinster has 12 so 2 pools of 6 winner of one plays runner up in the other in provincial Semi Finals with the winners in a Leinster Final
Ulster has 9, so you would need to stick either New york or London in there, 2 pools of 5, same deal as above, winner in 1 plays Rup in other and then on to a provincial final
Munster has 6 so 2 pools of 3, same as above
Connacht has 5 plus either London or New York and again same as above.

Four provincial winners in AI Semis and then final

A LOT more games I know 77 in total if I've added them all up, but this isn't as many more as you might think.
I counted 62 games in the current set up, which has a higher probability of replays.
Also you could trim the number of games in Leinster particularly by making it 4 pools of 3 in which case you would basically end up with pretty much the same number of games as the current system.
To win an All-Ireland you would play a minimum of 6 games and you could only really get away with losing 1 pool game, it's all knock out from there.

Main flaws to me is that you would end up with dead rubbers in Ulster and in Leinster if you went with 2 pools rather than 4.
Also you need to seed the draw and you could end up with bigger teams cruising in the pool stages knowing that 1 win will probably be enough from the 2 games.

What I like is that it retains the provincial titles, it gives teams a minimum 2 games and lets everyone have a shot at winning the All Ireland as opposed to the 2 tier system proposals.

Leinster has 11 football counties not 12. Your not expecting Kilkenny who cant even participate inDiv 4 league to suddenly play a few championship standard matches against Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Laois etc.
6 teams in Leinster groups, 5 in Ulster and 3 in Munster that's as unfair as the current system. A Munster group of Kerry, Tipp, Waterford isn't great now is it.
New York in the Ulster championship to even up the number to 10. So the expense of sending 4 teams to America every year instead of 1 wont go down too well just to give them an almighty walloping every time.
New York V Tyrone/Donegal/Down, jaysus!

iDave

I would be very strongly opposed to a 2-3 tier system. What's fine for hurling isn't for football. A hurling county like Limerick can produce a QF standard football team every once in a while. A football county like Mayo will never do that in Hurling.
Have the Ring/Rackard/Meagher Cups actually brought any of the counties along? Last I checked the Liam McCarthy was still an exclusive club.
Also can you imagine an the attendance for Carlow V Roscommon in the All Ireland Tier 2 Round 1. 1k possibly. Carlow V Meath or Roscommon V Mayo have shown plenty of times to draw more than that for a provincial QF

Gerry91

klairondavis wrote: »

It would be ideal if there was an equal uniformed provincial structure but it's unlikely to ever happen. The counties concerned will never support it.

I really don't know about this. I'm sure they'd prefer it to other proposed changes like CL format, like Tod said above. They'll still be playing neighbouring counties

Anyone from the effected counties care to give an opinion maybe, would be interesting? (Donegal, Wexford, Wicklow, Longford)


^^^ and that's all it is. Just FOUR counties out of 32 who have to move "province" and will be affected. Surely better than 32 counties affected by changing it to an open draw, CL format or whatever