Why have Political Parties?

Hi all.

I'm asking as it's been on my mind.

Why do we need political parties?

As far as I see, they operate under a magic "whip" system, which tells your representative how to vote. Debate is usually eschewed as people don't want to concede points.

How many opposition amendments have been put in to law in this Dail? (I'm genuinely asking, I don't know)

Would it not be better to ban all political parties?

You would have a Dail completely composed of independents. No whip, if you don't like the way they voted, don't vote them in next time.

The cabinet gets picked by an internal vote amongst TD's.

First day on the job, they're given a list of ministries with blank spaces for names on them. Fill them in, Voila, a cabinet. The president presides over this.

There's no opposition as everyone is opposition. You would have to be there for voting through law, no 2 day weeks for these TD's!


We would have strong debates, it should get a higher calibre of politician (as they won't/can't fall back on the, "I've always voted x-party." contingent.


So, what good does a party bring? All I see is the self serving nature of them.

Lantus

Even if the most ethical people were to be appointed tomorrow into office they would start to become affected by the overall system which is dominated by big business and monetary systems and that would affect them into making decisions that don't reflect the best interests of people or the environment.

We need to change the system. Just as our ancestors decided that being ruled by a king hand picked by god was no longer relevant we now need to make a significant change to our social systems to reflect the massive technological changes we have made over the last 100 years.

There is already a significant body of work being developed in this area under the title of the Venus project and the visionary mind of Jacque Fresco.

So you are right. We have almost across the world a polarised system of choice; left, right; democrat, republican; FG/FF giving people a sense of choice but its really an elaborate game in which no one wins. Just like 200+ years ago the wealth and power is still in the hands of a few percent of the population.

" None are more helplessly enslaved. Than those who believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.

TwoGallants

The problem is not political parties, the problem is politicians and by extension the people who vote for them. Banning political parties would make no difference as the inept and inane politicians would still participate as independents. Furthermore, government by its very nature would dissolve as there would be no coherent entity holding the machine together, it would all fall apart without the intervention of the party political system.

Political parties represent compromises between different segments/factions of the political spectrum. In sane countries, these compromises are divided along ideological lines and along genuine political support bases that represent various sectors (for example look at a country like Germany which has a strong working class/left wing base for its social democratic party, a professional/upper middle class base for its liberal/right wing free democrats party - now defunct! - and a mainstream centrist/center right base for its Christian democrats party. In other words, the suburban small c conservative) In Ireland we have two parties who are supposed to be different but really are not, the Labour party which is effectively a meaningless political entity, and Sinn Fein, which has only recently emerged from its terrorist/fascist past.

Political parties serve useful functions in democratic systems, they give voices to these political movements and allow those vested in those movements to affect change. In political systems built on compromise, such as the German federal system, all parties more or less have the opportunity to affect change through compromise and coalition government.

To knock the political party system is to knock the entire notion of western democracy. For all its faults, it still remains the best system humankind has yet developed, one of the few systems that (generally!) doesn't end up with people killing each other en masse.

Good loser

I can't see anything wrong with political parties.

This country has too many independents imo.

You'll see what I mean after next election.

RandomName2

At the moment TDs are pretty much superfluous. If they vote against the party they are expelled.

The point of political parties is to secure consensus, authority, and patronage. Dubious merits.

TwoGallants

TwoGallants wrote: »

The problem is not political parties, the problem is politicians and by extension the people who vote for them. Banning political parties would make no difference as the inept and inane politicians would still participate as independents. Furthermore, government by its very nature would dissolve as there would be no coherent entity holding the machine together, it would all fall apart without the intervention of the party political system.

I don't understand. Why that would be the case at all? If the governments job is to govern and represent the people, why do they need a whip? Why don't they listen to the people they are representing. We no longer need idealogical leaders (in my opinion) in Ireland, and besides, when was the last time the system got radically changed in Ireland?

Surely, by debating, setting a time limit (a generous one at that, say an absolute maximum of a week) and then the house voting on it makes more sense than party whips?

TwoGallants wrote: »

Political parties serve useful functions in democratic systems, they give voices to these political movements and allow those vested in those movements to affect change. In political systems built on compromise, such as the German federal system, all parties more or less have the opportunity to affect change through compromise and coalition government.

Sorry to be rabbitting on about this again, but why are political movements more important than the public? Surely it is in a country's best interest to have the people lead? Rather than be given a direction and told to follow it?

I also don't like "those vested in those movements to affect change". That is what is happening when parties are putty the party first, not the country. You could argue that the Green Party in the last Govt. were guilty of this. They should have backed out of that govt many times, but they persisted to follow their ideals. (I think the quote was something like, "you get more done in govt than you do on the outside".) We saw what happened to the Greens. Annihilated in the previous election. One reason given was that they were concerned more about retaining power and introducing the changes that they wanted, rather than looking out for the country.

TwoGallants wrote: »

To knock the political party system is to knock the entire notion of western democracy. For all its faults, it still remains the best system humankind has yet developed, one of the few systems that (generally!) doesn't end up with people killing each other en masse.

Just because something's worked for a long time, doesn't mean it's perfect. We, as a people, are mass educated beyond the wildest dreams of our great grandparents and as such, should be given more responsibility on how to govern ourselves.

Good loser wrote: »

I can't see anything wrong with political parties.

This country has too many independents imo.

You'll see what I mean after next election.

Care to expand?

TwoGallants

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't understand. Why that would be the case at all? If the governments job is to govern and represent the people, why do they need a whip? Why don't they listen to the people they are representing. We no longer need idealogical leaders (in my opinion) in Ireland, and besides, when was the last time the system got radically changed in Ireland?

You have an extremely interesting perception of the role of politicians/governments and the ability of the people to meaningfully affect change. The sad reality is that democracy is a terrible, unworkable idea that frequently leads to bad decisions, mass hysteria, and short term thinking. This is the reason why no such thing as a democracy exists anywhere in the world today. It is by its nature unworkable. What we have in most western 'democratic' countries is a political system known as constitutional democracy/democratic republic. It is a political system based on the rule of law. Legislation is created by legislators (either through referendum or politicians) and tested to ensure it is legal and consistent with the constitution. This is supposed to encourage long term thinking and protect the right's of minorities who so often get trampled upon by wayward majorities. A tyranny of the majority is no better than a dictatorship. People are fundamentally cruel and terrible and need to be constrained. History and psychology supports the notion that most people are unfit to govern themselves.

The above political system is built around a system of political parties who represent spectrums of political thought. If you replace that system with independents who are essentially only ever answerable to their immediate electorates, you will only ever get short term thinking and chaos.

Surely, by debating, setting a time limit (a generous one at that, say an absolute maximum of a week) and then the house voting on it makes more sense than party whips?

Nope. We don't live in an idealised version of Ancient Greece. There are no Socrate's or Aristotle's in the Dail.

Sorry to be rabbitting on about this again, but why are political movements more important than the public? Surely it is in a country's best interest to have the people lead? Rather than be given a direction and told to follow it?

Your disposition towards humanity would indicate an unfamiliarity with the innate cruelty, selfishness and brutishness of the human species. We are not an innately kind species. Qualities and virtues such as compassion, selflessness and delayed gratification are often examples of learnt behaviour. Our primal nature is much less sophisticated.

The very reason why the democratic republic is the best political system (by virtue of all the other systems being so terrible) is because it compromises and recognises the frailty of our species. The people by definition are incapable of leadership because everybody has by definition got a different idea of where the country should be led. This is why unpopular decisions sometimes need to be made which are against the wishes of the majority. Ending slavery in America, ending Jim Crow, these were unpopular decisions in large parts of the US. 'The People' don't deserve the sacred words you're conferring upon them.

micosoft

A really interesting article in the BBC today which shows how corrupt and venal a political system can get WITHOUT a whip system to bring some semblance of discipline to self serving representatives.