Why the anger against current government?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Im going to play devils advocate here however notice alot of what I read online is general animosity towards current government, and I know the property tax is an example of an unpopular policy they've introduced but at the same time I know they're coming off the back of an unprecedented IMF intervention. It appears that many people seem to blame this government for all of life's problems when really its the previous govt the should be pissed at. Did people really expect the govt to turn the whole economy around after two and half years in government?

Banjo String

Because they're lying hypocritical bastards.

/thread

hfallada

I think FG and Labour gave the impression that they were going to different to FF, particularly reducing the severity of the budget adjustments. Yet they had pretty much zero control over the budget as the Troika have to approve the budget. I believe they were implying in campaigning the life was going to be easier with them, as budget adjustments were going to be smaller(although the troika had decided on the budget adjustments for the next few years). Also we got years of how corrupt FF were, but yet with FG there was shady allocations of new health centers in a certain ministers constituency.

Overall what have FG and Labour achieved that no other party could have achieved? Nothing really, they have dragged their heals on any sensitive issues such as Abortion and Same sex marriage(like any other party, although Labour likes to portray that they are liberal) . Labour has this need to "protect" people on welfare because its unfair to cut social welfare. But yet there is little incentive to work and not cutting welfare now result in people who wouldnt want to work in the future.

washman3

They have lied to, and grossly misled the Irish electorate.
They have continued the exact same policies of the previous comedy show that masqueraded as a Government.
The swaggering arrogance, especially of the FG members is astonishing.
We can only hope that they get their due answers at the next election and that the Labour party will join the PDs and Greens in the dustbin of history.


P.S. await for the arrival of their apologists on this thread, telling us what a great job they have done so far.

hmmm

A lot of Irish people wanted someone to wave a magic wand and rid us of our problems overnight, so we could get back to making ourselves rich buying property. Naturally they're disappointed.

Banjo String

hmmm wrote: »

A lot of Irish people wanted someone to wave a magic wand and rid us of our problems overnight, so we could get back to making ourselves rich buying property. Naturally they're disappointed.

This too.

jacool

Banjo String wrote: »

Because they're lying hypocritical bastards.

/thread

Yup, telling us in 2009 that he wanted us to vote on abolishing an Seanad, and that he'd respect the electorates decision.

Won't even do the "best out of 3" Maastricht thing - very disappointing.

shruikan2553

This:
http://www.thejournal.ie/students-brand-government-liars-over-tuition-fee-promises-268414-Nov2011/

And this:
http://www.jobbridge.ie

And the property tax, not sure if the broadcasting charge was the current government but if so add that too.

My anger, I won't speak for everyone, but my anger stems from the fact that they don't represent Ireland. They, the people's representatives. They put party before country. They do not follow the wishes of the people. They are so out of touch with the common man that it's scary.

I only respect one man in the Dail, Stephen Donnelly. He seems to be truly representative. Frustrated with the process of politics, banging his head off the wall of red tape but wanting the best for everyone.

Days 298

I guess its more anger at labour than FG. Labour promised to abolish college fees but they are still here and rising. Labour claimed "labours way or Frankfurt's ways". Well it's more frankfurts way from here. The problem is all our policitians are populist. FF will get back in next time, the economy will pick up without them needing to do much and the cycle will continue. It really is trying to choose the lesser of the evils. I'd rather spoil my vote than vote for any if them atm.

washman3

hmmm wrote: »

A lot of Irish people wanted someone to wave a magic wand and rid us of our problems overnight, so we could get back to making ourselves rich buying property. Naturally they're disappointed.

And an even greater number wanted those responsible for ruining this country to be held to account.
Obviously, they're extremely disappointed.!!

Fighting Irish

Banjo String wrote: »

Because they're lying hypocritical bastards.

/thread

like most human beings

Cookie_Monster

because they've done pretty much nothing since they got in. The required cuts and reform have not been made, it's more of the same. More taxes and charges, not tackling waste and misspend, making sure they take care of themselves first.

COYW

hmmm wrote: »

A lot of Irish people wanted someone to wave a magic wand and rid us of our problems overnight, so we could get back to making ourselves rich buying property. Naturally they're disappointed.

You just hit the nail on the head there. The parties in government have to deal with reality. The opposition can live in the land of mythical populism, where money grows on trees; the world that the Irish public prefers.

This is always going to result in anger against the government, unless they too are in the privileged position of being able to live in the land of mythical populism, throwing money at anything and everything, which they did during the boom years.

Manach

That the entrenched economic interests, both public and private remain in their pre-bellum (eg the number of state agencies have remained fairly much as is) and increases in the tax burden has not seen a corresponding democratic oversight of the spending - ie town councils being shorn more of their powers and the Ombudsman office being sidelined.

Cedrus

Because they were handed a train wreck of an economy by FF (yet again) and some people are still trying to get into the first class dining car.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because they've done pretty much nothing since they got in. The required cuts and reform have not been made, it's more of the same. More taxes and charges, not tackling waste and misspend, making sure they take care of themselves first.

Fiscal treaty, judges pay, introduced personal insolvency legislation, legislated for abortion which previous governments avoided, passed a referendum on children's rights, renegotiated the interest rate on the EU/IMF loan, extended the term of our EU/IMF loan, managed to maintain our corporate tax regime which has come under huge pressure from competing countries, cut billions out of public sector pay while managing to maintain the majority of our services. Then we have people jumping up and down over Anglo but when given the opportunity to give the government more powers to do something via the House of the Oireachtas Inquiries referendum we voted no! Same thing with today's referendum, government gave people the opportunity to abolish a pointless institution which effectively has no power and has always been a breed I g ground for politicians to cut their teeth and again we vote no. As for student fees, I have no problem with the introduction of student fees especially since the overwhelming majority of students are from families that can afford to pay the fees and don't seem to have any problems sending their kids to fee paying secondary schools with is substantially more expensive than third level. Also, why should we be expected to fund third level education when many students are in courses which they have no intention of pursuing a career in and the ones that do are emigrating to other countries that are reaping the rewards of an education funded by Irish citizens. As for property tax, water charges etc yes unpopular policies but we were always on borrowed time with these and the days of free public services are unfortunately coming to an end, and that's not just Ireland. Health, agreed this is not a acceptable situation but I think we have to bear in mind that we are two and half years off the back of what is effectively a fifty year fianna fail legacy.

Taking into account all of the above, I think that this isn't a bad track record for a new government only half way into its first term after twenty years in opposition and off the back of an unprecedented economic crisis and an IMF intervention.

Billy86

washman3 wrote: »

They have lied to, and grossly misled the Irish electorate.
They have continued the exact same policies of the previous comedy show that masqueraded as a Government.
The swaggering arrogance, especially of the FG members is astonishing.
We can only hope that they get their due answers at the next election and that the Labour party will join the PDs and Greens in the dustbin of history.


P.S. await for the arrival of their apologists on this thread, telling us what a great job they have done so far.

As a matter of curiousity, does this mean you'll be voting FF next year?

hmmm wrote: »

A lot of Irish people wanted someone to wave a magic wand and rid us of our problems overnight, so we could get back to making ourselves rich buying property. Naturally they're disappointed.

Sad but true. If FF comes back in on the next cycle (or any time for the next 15-20 years) we deserve everything coming to us as a nation, and our young and skilled would be idiots to not run from here, full pelt.

nesf

They're a Government in a recession, regardless of any of the ****-ups they've managed, they'd probably be fairly unpopular regardless.

spank_inferno

This thread is rich in hyperbole.... Thin on reality.

I see a government working on reducing their deficit in an environment every pressure group / union is working against them.

Despite tax rises Ireland is still a low & progressively taxed country.

'de peoples' anger should be directed at the party that caused the problem.

Count Dooku

Banjo String wrote: »

Because they're lying hypocritical bastards.

Do you know better alternative?

Painted Pony

nesf wrote: »

They're a Government in a recession, regardless of any of the ****-ups they've managed, they'd probably be fairly unpopular regardless.

What strikes me as remarkable about the government (FG in particular) is that they are not as unpopular as I thought they would be. But perhaps that is because Labour are taking the full brunt.

Cookie_Monster

Painted Pony wrote: »

What strikes me as remarkable about the government (FG in particular) is that they are not as unpopular as I thought they would be. But perhaps that is because Labour are taking the full brunt.

well they aren't making the required cuts so are more popular than they otherwise would be.

Painted Pony

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well they aren't making the required cuts so are more popular than they otherwise would be.

I'm not sure what you mean. Aren't the adjustments to get our deficit back to sensible levels more or less on target?

Count Dooku

Painted Pony wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean. Aren't the adjustments to get our deficit back to sensible levels more or less on target?

Markets will decide it

bbam

It's the shallowness of what they are doing.

Kenny argued for years to have the tax rebate on second homes removed for ministers. Yes he was straight in and availed of it the minute he was actually in a position to remove it.
Gilmore with his famous "labours way" comment just demonstrated his stupidity and his u turn on college fees shows his lack of character.

The we won't touch PAYE rates was a silly commitment, they instead have to tack on a crap load of stealth taxes to compensate.

Kenny won't stand up in Public and debate anything, this in my mind renders him useless as a leader. What does he do when meeting with the Other leaders? Hold on lads and I'll get someone else to speak for me?

At the end of the day they have a huge list of failed promises. They lies and spun out ridiculous ideas at election time just to get into power. This breaks all credibility that they may have had.

Politics in Ireland is dead from the inside out. Each party is a rebranding of the others with little more than failed teachers clambering to get their slice of the gravey train.

rodento

We were promised a whole new kind of politics and got Perry, Hogan and O'Reilly

We were offered hope and got to support a system that allows people to stay in their unpaid for house's for free

We were offered a future but the government is holding on to a massive housing stock for statigic reasons....

We were offered fairness and equity but got a squeezed middle, the upper /lower classes got off scot free

We were offered real reform....

v638sg7k1a92bx

rodento wrote: »

We were promised a whole new kind of politics and got Perry, Hogan and O'Reilly

We were offered hope and got to support a system that allows people to stay in their unpaid for house's for free

We were offered a future but the government is holding on to a massive housing stock for statigic reasons....

We were offered fairness and equity but got a squeezed middle, the upper /lower classes got off scot free

We were offered real reform....

Assuming you are an adult and are old enough to vote, did you seriously expect a change of fortunes two years into a new government? All the reasons for not liking the govt seem to be fairly wishy washy to me. A lot of talk on here about reform, new politics, change etc but what exactly do people want? The reasons for not liking the govt from what I read on here seem to be personal gripes more than anything else. As for change and reform, we've had five referendums within two and a half years which is unprecedented in our times. If we compare that to the previous govt who held two referendums since 2001 being the protection of life and Irish citizebship. The rest were all driven by our membership of the EU.

nesf

Painted Pony wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean. Aren't the adjustments to get our deficit back to sensible levels more or less on target?

They're making cuts yes, the question is whether they're tackling the structural issues in the economy. Theses are things like, can we continue to fund pensioners at the current rate with our current tax regime going forward (the answer is no, when my/our generation retires we're pretty screwed unless our kids decide to be particularly fecund). Are they tackling (perceived) waste in the public sector? And so on. The cuts they're making tend to be quick fixes, water charges and property taxes aside.

Painted Pony

nesf wrote: »

They're making cuts yes, the question is whether they're tackling the structural issues in the economy. Theses are things like, can we continue to fund pensioners at the current rate with our current tax regime going forward (the answer is no, when my/our generation retires we're pretty screwed unless our kids decide to be particularly fecund). Are they tackling (perceived) waste in the public sector? And so on. The cuts they're making tend to be quick fixes, water charges and property taxes aside.

Yes the pension issue is a huge problem. And in fairness to the previous government they did make an issue to address the problem with their pension fund.

But is is a huge problem and I don't see anyway, especially given the current climate, that this, or any other government can solve it. Funding pensions from the exchequer was / is not a great idea. We can all expect to work for longer than we had thought and / or to get a much reduced pension, if we get one at all.

And this goes back to the broader question as to how much we could reasonably expect any government to do?

Sand

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

Assuming you are an adult and are old enough to vote, did you seriously expect a change of fortunes two years into a new government? All the reasons for not liking the govt seem to be fairly wishy washy to me. A lot of talk on here about reform, new politics, change etc but what exactly do people want? The reasons for not liking the govt from what I read on here seem to be personal gripes more than anything else. As for change and reform, we've had five referendums within two and a half years which is unprecedented in our times. If we compare that to the previous govt who held two referendums since 2001 being the protection of life and Irish citizebship. The rest were all driven by our membership of the EU.

Assuming you are an adult and old enough to vote, did you expect a government to break all of its promises to the voters and remain popular? Perhaps you did - you weren't far off crediting the government for the two weeks of great sunshine we got this summer.

And for what its worth I think you're misreading rodentos post - he's highlighting that the government promised to undertake business in an honest, fair and transparent way. Not that everything would be solved in two years. People are very clear that the system of governance in Ireland is badly broken: FG were elected with a clear mandate to reform it, to undo the corrosive cynicism in Irish politics.

First week into power, Enda Kenny was breaching salary caps for his advisors: snouts in the tough.

rodento

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

Assuming you are an adult and are old enough to vote, did you seriously expect a change of fortunes two years into a new government? All the reasons for not liking the govt seem to be fairly wishy washy to me. A lot of talk on here about reform, new politics, change etc but what exactly do people want? The reasons for not liking the govt from what I read on here seem to be personal gripes more than anything else. As for change and reform, we've had five referendums within two and a half years which is unprecedented in our times. If we compare that to the previous govt who held two referendums since 2001 being the protection of life and Irish citizebship. The rest were all driven by our membership of the EU.

How can you call it a personal gripe

We were offered a new kinda of politics and what we got is a Taoiseach who treats us as if we are nothing more than gullible kids

Take the last referendum, we were told that there would be 20 million savings a year, we were not told how this was calculated nor how much it'd cost to run all the new partisan committees, when the referendum commission questioned the savings, we were told well we know best...

On the mortgage crisis we are constantly been told there is no evidence of strategic default, but a bank has to take a minister for small business to court in order to be paid

I could go on but

titan18

Sand wrote: »

Assuming you are an adult and old enough to vote, did you expect a government to break all of its promises to the voters and remain popular? Perhaps you did - you weren't far off crediting the government for the two weeks of great sunshine we got this summer.

And for what its worth I think you're misreading rodentos post - he's highlighting that the government promised to undertake business in an honest, fair and transparent way. Not that everything would be solved in two years. People are very clear that the system of governance in Ireland is badly broken: FG were elected with a clear mandate to reform it, to undo the corrosive cynicism in Irish politics.

First week into power, Enda Kenny was breaching salary caps for his advisors: snouts in the tough.

FG weren't really, if they were, they wouldn't have had to go into coalition with Labour. If people wanted FG, they'd have got the overall majority.

There's only so much they can do when they're stuck having to appease another party from walking out of government if they go too far

nesf

Painted Pony wrote: »

Yes the pension issue is a huge problem. And in fairness to the previous government they did make an issue to address the problem with their pension fund.

But is is a huge problem and I don't see anyway, especially given the current climate, that this, or any other government can solve it. Funding pensions from the exchequer was / is not a great idea. We can all expect to work for longer than we had thought and / or to get a much reduced pension, if we get one at all.

And this goes back to the broader question as to how much we could reasonably expect any government to do?

I'm not saying it's reasonable, just people are annoyed by it. Normally it takes extreme circumstances for the political will to be there for massive structural change, see the political changes during the Great Depression (both good and bad) and in the immediate post-War period in Europe for instance (beginning of the EU, unthinkable 20 years earlier). Our current recession is nowhere near as drastic as either of these.

spank_inferno

Reserve judgement till 2016.

This gov has made more change than FF did since 1997

v638sg7k1a92bx

Sand wrote: »

Assuming you are an adult and old enough to vote, did you expect a government to break all of its promises to the voters and remain popular? Perhaps you did - you weren't far off crediting the government for the two weeks of great sunshine we got this summer.

And for what its worth I think you're misreading rodentos post - he's highlighting that the government promised to undertake business in an honest, fair and transparent way. Not that everything would be solved in two years. People are very clear that the system of governance in Ireland is badly broken: FG were elected with a clear mandate to reform it, to undo the corrosive cynicism in Irish politics.

First week into power, Enda Kenny was breaching salary caps for his advisors: snouts in the tough.

Again, more personal gripes and nitpicking. Out of all the fiscal problems that this country has faced in the past five years, your main concern is the salary of one of Enda Kenny's personal advisor's. I never been a blue shirt by any stretch of the imagination but I have to hold my hand up and say that there is no comparison between this government and previous FF governments in terms of "noses in the trough". FF governments had an endemic level of corruption running through the party and yet people are now directing their anger at this govt over petty items such as one advisor's pay and as a result we can see FF creeping back up the polls.

As for reform, what exactly do people want? Five referendums in 2.5 years with more to follow, if that isn't reform I don't know what is?

TheDoc

I think the anger and conflict directed at them, is not due to their complete indeptitude to the task and their mandate, but is more a reflection on the fickle population, and how we love to play the blame game.
Labour and FG did not during the general election, once, provide ONE tangible plan of action in order to stimulate jobs, or put us back on track.

Throughout their tenure they have simply played the "well we didn't put us in this mess" anytime their shoddy or piss poor plans are questioned. They made their soundbite promises and requests which the population bought into stupidly.

Their needs to be some responability on those that voted Labour and FG. My belief is that it was a case of simply voting in "anything other then FF", but we have put people in power that simply have not got the skillset to achieve anything of note. Instead we have given them essentially a free pass to salary bumps, and to put inplace some token legislation so they have their name remembered. Why else would someone like Reilly be badgering on about making Ireland smoke free in 2025, when his HSE budget will be announced shortly to have run hundreds of millions over budget again, requiring another bailout for the HSE.

I think the anger is well justified, in that they have completely failed their responability and mandate to the population first off, while also being compeltely abject in their positions.

I appreciate they are a government operating during a recession. But some of their decisions, activities and in alot of cases refusal to debate or discuss some serious issues, is a pretty daming indication of a piss poor effort. Coupled with the fact they keep championing they are our saviours, that we are coming out squeeky clean. Well anyone believing that are in for a massive shock to the system.

Loafing Oaf

[QUOTE=TheDoc;86900648They made their soundbite promises and requests which the population bought into stupidly.
[/QUOTE]

In fairness, this applies much more to Labour than to FG. Most FG promises were vague waffley things that they can sort of justifiably claim to be making progress on, whereas Labour's were ostensibly watertight commitments on specific policy issues, almost all of which they have royally trashed.

So re the OP's question, IMO it's the being played for fools that really drives people mad, and Labour are much the guiltier party in this respect. Gilmore's line on this is "Well our pre-election commitments were made on our own behalf, but when you go into coalition you have to make compromises". Does anyone here find this defensible, even on a sort of Clintoneseque level of linguistic evasiveness? When he wagged his finger and said "Labour will not agree to child benefit being cut any more" does that not clearly imply that party would walk out of govt if FG insisted on imposing such cuts?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

In fairness, this applies much more to Labour than to FG. Most FG promises were vague waffley things that they can sort of justifiably claim to be making progress on, whereas Labour's were ostensibly watertight commitments on specific policy issues, almost all of which they have royally trashed.

So re the OP's question, IMO it's the being played for fools that really drives people mad, and Labour are much the guiltier party in this respect. Gilmore's line on this is "Well our pre-election commitments were made on our own behalf, but when you go into coalition you have to make compromises". Does anyone here find this defensible, even on a sort of Clintoneseque level of linguistic evasiveness? When he wagged his finger and said "Labour will not agree to child benefit being cut any more" does that not clearly imply that party would walk out of govt if FG insisted on imposing such cuts?

Ok lets take child benefit as another example. Who would have a problem with child benefit being means tested so that the people who need it the most get the most. Why have labour taken this position that everyone is entitled to the same amount of child benefit regardless of their income, just doesn't make sense?
Same with third level fees. Labour originally introduced free third level education with the intention that it would remove the barriers to entry for people from who effectively couldn't afford to go to third level. This policy didn't change the demographic of people from going to third level and ultimately what has happened is that we are providing free third level education to people who can afford to pay for it, many of which don't have any problem with sending their kids to fee paying secondary schools. We could re-introduce third level fees on a means test basis so that people who don't have the means to pay their fees won't be prevented from attending third level on the basis of their income.

Idbatterim

Ok lets take child benefit as another example. Who would have a problem with child benefit being means tested so that the people who need it the most get the most. Why have labour taken this position that everyone is entitled to the same amount of child benefit regardless of their income, just doesn't make sense?
Same with third level fees. Labour originally introduced free third level education with the intention that it would remove the barriers to entry for people from who effectively couldn't afford to go to third level. This policy didn't change the demographic of people from going to third level and ultimately what has happened is that we are providing free third level education to people who can afford to pay for it, many of which don't have any problem with sending their kids to fee paying secondary schools. We could re-introduce third level fees on a means test basis so that people who don't have the means to pay their fees won't be prevented from attending third level on the basis of their income.

The ones that need it the most are the working poor, the ones who have to actually pay for child minding or creche etc. I totally disagree with this, by mean testing it, who do you plan on taking it away from? I mean roughly what income and whatever figure you give, those earning that will already be paying the outrageous marginal rate of tax. This isnt about taxing the "high earners" etc, its targeting anyone who has got off their ass and either a) got a good education or b) worked hard probably a combination of both for the most part. Whats being proposed here is totally the opposite of Germany, Scandinavia, where what you get out is based on what you pay in. Whats being proposed is responsible hard working people, massively subsidising others more than they already do and their education while they pay through the nose for it?

With regards to third level fees. Forget anyone getting beneficial treatment, put a loan system in place for everyone and end of!

Ireland has to be one of if not the most cushy countries in the world, everything is handed to you on a plate here if your prepared to put in any sort of bloody effort & if your not, forget expecting the same or near it, standard of living that those who have educated themselves and worked their asses off have...

v638sg7k1a92bx

Idbatterim wrote: »

The ones that need it the most are the working poor, the ones who have to actually pay for child minding or creche etc. I totally disagree with this, by mean testing it, who do you plan on taking it away from? I mean roughly what income and whatever figure you give, those earning that will already be paying the outrageous marginal rate of tax. This isnt about taxing the "high earners" etc, its targeting anyone who has got off their ass and either a) got a good education or b) worked hard probably a combination of both for the most part. Whats being proposed here is totally the opposite of Germany, Scandinavia, where what you get out is based on what you pay in. Whats being proposed is responsible hard working people, massively subsidising others more than they already do and their education while they pay through the nose for it?

With regards to third level fees. Forget anyone getting beneficial treatment, put a loan system in place for everyone and end of!

Ireland has to be one of if not the most cushy countries in the world, everything is handed to you on a plate here if your prepared to put in any sort of bloody effort & if your not, forget expecting the same or near it, standard of living that those who have educated themselves and worked their asses off have...

That's what means testing does, you take into account a persons income, expense, size of family etc. BTW, kids are only in creche up to the age of 4 but child benefit is paid until the kids are 18.

Idbatterim

yeah but either way, its proposed to take it away from people who are already taking away too much in my opinion. when I hear means test, I'm sure people are referring to high earners, as what I would to middle income, which would be 80-100k if say family of 3 and its a joint income. The outrageous marginal rate of income tax, quickly reduces a "high salary" down to much more modest territory. See below, it is based on a single PAYE worker... Not sure if there is is one for couples...

http://www.publicpolicy.ie/where-does-your-tax-go/

That's what means testing does, you take into account a persons income, expense, size of family etc. BTW, kids are only in creche up to the age of 4 but child benefit is paid until the kids are 18.

true but that then begs the question, should it be cut in half at say 15 for example and the kid should be told to go out and get a part time job, or the parents just take the hit if they can afford it?

RichardAnd

I'm not a person taken to hate easily. In the case of the current government, I can not say that I "hate" them, but I do find them irksome to the extent that I have utterly no respect for them. Allow me to outline the reasons behind my feeling as such.

Firstly, and this alone would be enough for me to feel as I do, I find them to be utterly, totally sycophantic. Be it the EU, the Americans, or some
multi-national company, the Irish Government never seems to miss the opportunity to lick a few boots. The worst of lot seems to me to be Enda Kenny himself. The man is obsequious in the extreme and whilst he's probably no worse or better than any of his cohorts, there is just some about him than makes me cringe. The best example of this behavior that I can think of is Enda's reception some years ago of the announcement that Dell were to create one hundred or so very esoteric IT jobs in Ireland. Notwithstanding that the said company upped anchor and put nearly two thousand people out of work, Enda still wheeled some corporate spokesperson in front of the cameras for a fawning display.

The second reason on my list is the perfidious nature of the current government. I'm not so foolish that I believe any statesman to be honest but the current establishment seems to have an acumen, if not an utter gift, for breaking promises. Granted, I never believed much of what was said to begin with but still...

Lastly, I have to mention one more thing. The current government is politically incompetent. They tried to please everyone and in the end, they have pleased virtually no one. Margret Tatcher is loathed in some parts of the UK but to many others, she is admired. The reason for this is simple; Maggie did not try to please everyone. She kept her power base happy and she didn't even try to please anyone else. That is what made her a strong politician.

FF tried to please everyone and for a while, they were highly popular but when the chips were down, people turned on them. FG seem to be guilty of the same sin and when the next election comes, they will probably pay the price. As the great man said, it's better to be feared than loved.

My two cents.

desaparecidos

Because people are trying to justify voting FF back in. They seem to want to forget everything FF did and blame it on the current government. FF will be back in next time round, no doubt about it.

v638sg7k1a92bx

RichardAnd wrote: »

FF tried to please everyone and for a while, they were highly popular but when the chips were down, people turned on them. FG seem to be guilty of the same sin and when the next election comes, they will probably pay the price. As the great man said, it's better to be feared than loved. My two cents.

Not sure if I agree re FG pleasing everyone. Property tax, water charges, abortion legislation, Haddington Rd are very unpopular.

ardmacha

nesf wrote: »

They're making cuts yes, the question is whether they're tackling the structural issues in the economy. Theses are things like, can we continue to fund pensioners at the current rate with our current tax regime going forward (the answer is no, when my/our generation retires we're pretty screwed unless our kids decide to be particularly fecund). Are they tackling (perceived) waste in the public sector? And so on. The cuts they're making tend to be quick fixes, water charges and property taxes aside.

The present government are responding to the Troika, if in government at present FF would do exactly the same thing. What is lacking is some kind of proposition for what they want the long term structure of the state to look like, what will be the pension system, can everyone go to third level and have most of the cost paid by the taxpayer? With some long term plan they can then move towards that, rather than always choosing expediency. As far as I can see there hasn't been any real analysis of problems such as sustainable pensions, the structure of the publuc service etc, never mind tackling these issues in a long term way. Short term political advantage every time.

shamrock2004

Deleted User wrote: »

My anger, I won't speak for everyone, but my anger stems from the fact that they don't represent Ireland. They, the people's representatives. They put party before country. They do not follow the wishes of the people. They are so out of touch with the common man that it's scary.

I only respect one man in the Dail, Stephen Donnelly. He seems to be truly representative. Frustrated with the process of politics, banging his head off the wall of red tape but wanting the best for everyone.

I was only saying the same thing to someone over the weekend. I watched him on vincent browne a few times and have listened to him on the marian finucane radio show and he seems puts his arguments across very well.

Fr Tod Umptious

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

Not sure if I agree re FG pleasing everyone. Property tax, water charges, abortion legislation, Haddington Rd are very unpopular.

Abortion - Some are unhappy that it goes too far/others that it does not go too far
Haddington Rd - Some perceive it hits public servants too hard/ others perceive it doe snot hit them hard enough

You will never please everyone.

Zubeneschamali

rodento wrote: »

We were offered a new kinda of politics and what we got is a Taoiseach who treats us as if we are nothing more than gullible kids

If you fell for any of that "new kind of politics" guff, then you really are gullible and probably not very old.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If you fell for any of that "new kind of politics" guff, then you really are gullible and probably not very old.

Exactly, if we read the posts on here the reasons for their anger is fairly vague to say the least, it's all hope, change, reform, a new kind of politics. One poster above even admits:

The worst of lot seems to me to be Enda Kenny himself. The man is obsequious in the extreme and whilst he's probably no worse or better than any of his cohorts, there is just some about him than makes me cringe.

Where do you even start with trying to get through to that type of mentality?

Skrynesaver

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

Again, more personal gripes and nitpicking. Out of all the fiscal problems that this country has faced in the past five years, your main concern is the salary of one of Enda Kenny's personal advisor's. I never been a blue shirt by any stretch of the imagination but I have to hold my hand up and say that there is no comparison between this government and previous FF governments in terms of "noses in the trough". FF governments had an endemic level of corruption running through the party and yet people are now directing their anger at this govt over petty items such as one advisor's pay and as a result we can see FF creeping back up the polls.

As for reform, what exactly do people want? Five referendums in 2.5 years with more to follow, if that isn't reform I don't know what is?

Less corrupt than FF isn't the target I'm looking for politics to achieve, the closure of the planning enquires, the perceived bias in the siting of the primary care centres, Phil Hogan's unpunished discriminatory remarks...

That's off the top of my head, none of those issues require fundamental reform of the institutions, just a reform of attitude, namely the holding of those in office to account for their actions.